Something I forgot to mention: I'm assuming a single-roll combat table. If yellow attacks are on a double roll, this makes +hit a bit better, I'll model it but I don't think it's huge. If white attacks are on a double roll I'll be very surprised.
Originally Posted by Feorthas
It's not that +Hit by itself is such an amazing stat, it's that it makes all of your other ones better.
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I'm afraid this doesn't make any sense, it either increases your DPS by a useful amount, in the context of your current stats, or it doesn't.
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Lets say you have no +Hit and miss exactly 8.64% of the time--8.6 for the sake of this argument. Let's also say that you have the potential to do 1000 DPS, just to keep numbers nice and round. Due to misses, you are reducing your damage output by 86 DPS, without considering the combo-point, energy, and global cooldown mechanics.
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That doesn't follow at all. Suppose for argument's sake you do 1000 'potential' white damage (every thing connects) over a period of time, have a 35% crit rate, and don't glance (level 70 mob). 46% of your white damage is coming from hits, and 64% from crits. The attacks you miss by not having any +hit are hits, not crits, so you're losing 8.6%/65% = 13.2% of your *hit* damage, i.e. 13.2% * 46% = 6.1% of your total damage.
And this doesn't apply at all to yellow attacks unless you assume that you don't have any means/time to convert the 82% of energy you get back into DPS.
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'Losing' a GCD to a miss, without considering the lost damage or energy, costs you output by wasting a second of time. Warlocks...
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Time is not a scarce resource in most situations for cats. If wewere comparable to warlocks, you'd be running dotimer to refresh feral faerie fire at the very last second, like moonkins do.
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Furthermore, as Athinira pointed out, missing results in less procs.
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I do in fact model this.
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Simply put, this means you get less Omen of Clarity procs, discounting the ability to proc anything else ...
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I'm not sure what all the math is about. +1% to hit is +1% of swings that are eligible for an OOC proc. As mentioned, it's a small increase to the power of +hit.
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This isn't even covering lost combo points / energy due to misses
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Yes it is, you're overestimating lost energy due to misses by a factor of 5. Lost combo points are a small effect because the misses cost you 18% of energy. And yes I model this
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nor am I even considering dodge at this point
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Dodge doesn't have anything to do with +hit other than modifying your base hit-rate- i.e. the point at which you take your derivative.
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however, a raw 10% reduction in potential DPS, not including procs, and a 36% reduction in expected OOC procs is a pretty hefty penalty in my book.
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10%? 36%? what?
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Originally Posted by Valerian
That said, item budget wise Hit is definately not the best stat available at least from a lot of spreadsheets I've seen. Since hit rating, crit rating (and any other combat ratings), Str and Agi all cost the same in an item budget, the order (once you've reached high enough AP) would be:
Agi>Str>AP>Crit Rating>Haste Rating>Hit rating>FCS
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That's the conclusion I'm coming to (although FCS seems to be a lot better than that for the first 20 rating). My question then is, if hit is worse than pretty much any other DPS stat, then why does everyone seem concerned with what the hit cap is, when optimal gear shouldn't be anywhere near it?
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Originally Posted by dukes
The other effect of +hit is that it means you can manage energy cycles much better. If you can always make sure you mangle with 81+ energy (or rip->mangle with 70+) then you can get the most effect out of it. It you miss this attack even once, it can cause a missed partial/full energy tick, which is a lot of DPS.
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Definitely, +hit makes your cycles much more predictable and therefore almost always better. A simplified, resilient cycle helps with the modeling though. The cycle I'm using for calculation at the moment has things like 'shred to 5CP', and the amount of energy~time taken for this (accounting for misses) is used to calculate the proportion of shreds mangled. In practice if you missed four shreds in a row you'd probably mangle again at some point before rip. Of course the resulting numbers only approximate those for a different cycle, and there's some unlikely corner cases that break the model.
Pretty sure anyone who makes a spreadsheet ends up waking up in the middle of the night thinking 'what if I wait for 52 energy so I can mangle rip but mangle misses' or 'what if the rogue's 1.3 speed green offhand rolls low and glances, winding up 100 below the mob's block - can glances even block?!', their psychiatrist tells them to make a monte carlo simulator,and they're never heard from again.
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Originally Posted by galzohar
While what you said about hit having low effect on specials is totally true, remember the rating cost of 1 hit, bumping it back up to a far less than useless stat. Remember that while 1% crit is clearly more DPS than 1% hit for the reasons stated in the first post, it also costs significantly more rating.
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If it costs 29% less and does 50% less, then it's just worse.
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Originally Posted by Feorthas
Simplifying in that manner actually hurts the valuation of +Hit as, without glances, the average hit is always going to be the same damage as the next hit.
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This is very true. However I can't find any current theory of glancing blows that could put 1% to hit as 1% or more of your white DPS.
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Originally Posted by galzohar
Glances or no glances, the effect of 1% hit and 1% crit for white damage is EXACTLY the same. The ratings are different though.
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Not true, +hit takes a 0 multiplier to a 1.0 multiplier, +crit takes a 1.0 multiplier to a 2.2 multiplier (predatory instincts), 2.27 if you use a relentless earthstorm meta. Hit has advantages for things that proc on hit (OOC), crit is better for things that proc on crit (Hourglass).
But yes, point-for-point hit is better than crit if only looking at white damage.
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Skill appears to be worth 3 AP though (1.3 better than hit!) so it may be completely and utterly sane to stack +Skill for boss encounters. Either that or it's reporting incorrectly
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What FCSR do you currently have? In
my current gear set with Shapeshifter's signet equipped (20FCSR = 5FCS), FCSR is worth about 2.2AP against bosses. If I take off my signet, FCSR becomes worth 2.93, as the first 20 points are more valuable. (I'm looking at the positive derivative because I'm generally looking at upgrades not downgrades
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All things considered, that really isn't a bad thing; as long as you can keep your AP/Crit over the threshold where Agility becomes better than Strength, you should be in good shape
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Agi and str seem to be balanced somewhere in the mid-2k-ap gear range (depending on other stats), and change very slowly relative to each other, I'm happy to take them as interchangeable at my level of gear.
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Originally Posted by Liar
Unless it got changed, Hit also increases your effective crit rate because crits are calculated for ALL of your swings regardless if they get dodged/parried/hit or miss.
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Originally Posted by Valerian
How would hit increase your crit rate?
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Originally Posted by thejdawg
An attack has to hit before it can crit.
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Originally Posted by Liar
crits are calculated for ALL of your swings
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