Originally Posted by tunah
Something I forgot to mention: I'm assuming a single-roll combat table. If yellow attacks are on a double roll, this makes +hit a bit better, I'll model it but I don't think it's huge. If white attacks are on a double roll I'll be very surprised.
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Nor am I modeling a two-roll system for either yellow or white attacks; maybe we should see what the rogues have decided with regards to that at some point in the near future.
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Originally Posted by tunah
I'm afraid this doesn't make any sense, it either increases your DPS by a useful amount, in the context of your current stats, or it doesn't.
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Ok, an increase in hit will increase your damage output by a fixed percentage; however, because percentages are scalars, this will increase the utility of your other stats (just how having no hit ~decreases~ the utility of your stats by 8.6% simply because 8.6% of the time you miss and a miss with a billion AP is the same as a miss with 0 AP).
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Originally Posted by tunah
That doesn't follow at all. Suppose for argument's sake you do 1000 'potential' white damage (every thing connects) over a period of time, have a 35% crit rate, and don't glance (level 70 mob). 46% of your white damage is coming from hits, and 64% from crits. The attacks you miss by not having any +hit are hits, not crits, so you're losing 8.6%/65% = 13.2% of your *hit* damage, i.e. 13.2% * 46% = 6.1% of your total damage.
And this doesn't apply at all to yellow attacks unless you assume that you don't have any means/time to convert the 82% of energy you get back into DPS.
Time is not a scarce resource in most situations for cats. If wewere comparable to warlocks, you'd be running dotimer to refresh feral faerie fire at the very last second, like moonkins do.
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Point.
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Originally Posted by tunah
I'm not sure what all the math is about. +1% to hit is +1% of swings that are eligible for an OOC proc. As mentioned, it's a small increase to the power of +hit.
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Omen was just an example; you could be attempting to proc ~anything~ really. My point was more that missing makes nothing proc whereas a hit means you have a chance to proc something.
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Originally Posted by tunah
Yes it is, you're overestimating lost energy due to misses by a factor of 5. Lost combo points are a small effect because the misses cost you 18% of energy. And yes I model this  |
I don't and my valuation of hit is still higher than yours and I really don't think that my math is simply that horrible; I may have a formula wrong somewhere but I'm fairly sure that I'm not all that far off of the mark.
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Originally Posted by tunah
10%? 36%? what?
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Statistics. If you want to know how likely it is that a random event will occur over a sequence of effects that could trigger it, you go about it in the following manner:
- Take the %Chance and generate the likelihood of the event NOT occurring (1-%Chance).
- Chance to not Occur over N Hits = (1-%Chance)^N
- Chance to Occur over N Hits = (1-Chance to Not Occur)
Thus, over 5 hits, we had a 36% chance to miss once, reducing the chance to proc OOC once, which was ~8%, by that amount (yielding an expected procrate of 5.1%).
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Originally Posted by tunah
That's the conclusion I'm coming to (although FCS seems to be a lot better than that for the first 20 rating). My question then is, if hit is worse than pretty much any other DPS stat, then why does everyone seem concerned with what the hit cap is, when optimal gear shouldn't be anywhere near it?
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It all depends on how exactly +Skill is modeled; again, we should probably refer to rogue spreadsheets to find out how they've decided to do it so that we can save time on that debate.
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Originally Posted by tunah
If it costs 29% less and does 50% less, then it's just worse.
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That's something else I haven't taken into account; still, it costs a good deal less and does it really do 50% less? Are you taking the lost hit into account when you turn a hit into a crit?
Hit (100%) -> Crit (210%(?)) yields a 110% increase in damage.
Miss (0%) -> Hit (100%) yields a 100% increase in damage.
So if hit costs 29% less and does 90.91% of the damage, that's pretty good in my book.
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Originally Posted by tunah
This is very true. However I can't find any current theory of glancing blows that could put 1% to hit as 1% or more of your white DPS.
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Nor can I to be honest; just presenting my PoV on the situation.
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Originally Posted by tunah
Not true, +hit takes a 0 multiplier to a 1.0 multiplier, +crit takes a 1.0 multiplier to a 2.2 multiplier (predatory instincts), 2.27 if you use a relentless earthstorm meta. Hit has advantages for things that proc on hit (OOC), crit is better for things that proc on crit (Hourglass).
But yes, point-for-point hit is better than crit if only looking at white damage.
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Pred Instincts states that it increases the
bonus damage by 10% (as opposed to the net damage).
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Originally Posted by tunah
What FCSR do you currently have? In my current gear set with Shapeshifter's signet equipped (20FCSR = 5FCS), FCSR is worth about 2.2AP against bosses. If I take off my signet, FCSR becomes worth 2.93, as the first 20 points are more valuable. (I'm looking at the positive derivative because I'm generally looking at upgrades not downgrades  |
22 from my pair of Shattrath leggings (legguards?) (either 5.58 Skill or 5.8 skill; can't remember which).
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Originally Posted by tunah
Agi and str seem to be balanced somewhere in the mid-2k-ap gear range (depending on other stats), and change very slowly relative to each other, I'm happy to take them as interchangeable at my level of gear.
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Pretty much; I'm glad our models agree on ~something~ ;D.
As a side note, I wonder if our differing valuations for the stats are generated from using a different testing methodology & definitions (and my generally weaker tests, which are pretty much doomed to have poorer accuracy by definition); for example, I refuse to call something a 'cycle' unless I start and end at roughly the same point, especially when energy & debuffs are concerned whereas everyone else seems to use the 1 Mangle, 3 Shreds, & Rip 'cycle' (with excess energy just kinda going into the void?).