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Olon97 · 12/17/07, 8:32 PM

Here we are:
A1.1 Appendix: Tanking with a (mostly) DPS build.

You're on call for tanking duties at times, but at other times someone else is the MT and you may as well do your best to DPS. While the devastate in DPS gear is one approach, another alternative to consider is having 31+ points in a DPS tree and taking advantage of the 63% threat bonus to Mortal Strike or Bloodthirst threat that 3 points in Tactical Mastery gives (source) so that you still produce adequate threat when tanking.

Before going any further, it's worth noting that MS appears to be the weaker route from a pure PvE utility standpoint. Any significant investment in protection talents forces a PvE MS build to drop flurry and possibly imp. slam as well. Using a slow mainhand while tanking should keep the threat per second and snap aggro potential of MS, but at the cost of HS efficiency. The only raid-centric rationale that comes to mind for the MS approach is if you really need the MS debuff from your character to reduce a boss' healing mechanic.

Bloodthirst will work more efficiently with a HS Spam friendly (fast) mainhand, precision makes reaching the 9% hit cap easier, and weapon mastery offers additional threat advantages if one hasn't already removed boss dodges via expertise.

The DPS hybrid tanking approach is another balancing act between DPS for threat, and mitigation/avoidance for survivability, except you don't divide your attention between buffing shield slam with block value and buffing white dmg / HS / devastate with strength and attack power. The right balance between threat and survival depends on your healing crew, the specific bosses in question, and your roles on said bosses.

A1.2. DPS Warrior tanking roles.

Raid tanking, single boss, only tank - Your usual MT no-showed? In this situation there is no excuse not to use a full protection build for the benefit of the raid. Respecs are cheap.
Raid tanking, boss encounter, first mob to die - take as much DPS potential as your healers and the fight's insta-gib risks will allow. Difference between this situation and 100% dps is considering crit immunity via resilience, steering clear of glass-cannon gear (leather). Any threat boosting talents you've picked up should help here presuming your group has big guns, but they should watch their threat meters regardless (esp. if circumstances force survival gear).
Raid tanking, boss encounter, mob not first to die, time to build aggro - Here it's best to gear for survival. Threat talents are not likely to have much impact, but additional shield block charges can reduce crushing blows, and last stand can be very handy in an emergency.
Raid tanking, single boss with multiple tanks - Many of these allow the use of taunt. In taunt fights, after reaching the hit cap (to eliminate taunt resists), it may be OK to gear for avoidance and benefit from threat established by the MT. Fights that depend on building secondary threat to alternate tanks, or snap threat from frequent aggro resets, on the other hand, may benefit from a more aggressive approach towards threat.
Raid trash offtanking - Generally more forgiving from a survival standpoint, a single marked target should have similar considerations depending on kill order as in a boss encounter. With multiple targets or AoE pulls, don't forget sweeping strikes if you have it.
5 man MT'ing Heroics - DPS hybrid builds work fine for badge farming. The old tricks of stacking CC classes or getting Blessing of Salvation on the other party members can still help. Depending on group makeup, you'll likely have less bonus AP from buffs, so for trash pulls play with additional DPS pieces until you find a comfortable threat baseline for your group's kill speed. For multiple mobs without CC, use your DPS spec to your advantage: ranged/line of sight pull (allowing any CC to be done away from where you're tanking), Bloodrage, Berserker Rage a second before arrival, Sweeping Strikes as they reach you, Whirlwind (with shield still on) with at least 2 in range, then Defensive Stance and Cleaves + Thunder Claps.

A1.3. DPS Warrior tanking gear.

Shield block value is a mitigation only stat for a DPS hybrid build. Traditional DPS stats, on the other hand, significantly impact the skills (and white damage) that will likely make up 60-80% of the TPS in your skill cycle. This makes pure DPS pieces very tempting. The best DPS pieces for swapping in will have high ilvls (hence high armor) and respectable amounts of stamina, making them at least "survival" pieces if not avoidance pieces. If you don't have such DPS pieces available, you may be wiser to boost threat via jewelry first to avoid losing armor value.

Making room for threat pieces: crit immunity via resilience.
Of course, when thinking of high ilvl DPS pieces with lots of stamina Arena / S3 pieces (link) come to mind. Getting the 2 piece gladiator bonus significantly reduces the number of items with defense you'll need to reach crit immunity. Remember, add up the %s you see when you mouse over defense and resilience, being wary of rounding errors, and if the sum is greater than 5.6% you should have crit immunity.

(rating conversions courtesy of Satrina):
39.42 resilience rating = 1 resilience skill = 1% reduction in chance to be crit
2.36 defense rating = 1 defense skill = 0.04% reduction in chance to be crit

Note: at times in resilience gear you can potentially have enrage proc while not actually being crit (a mechanic from Blizzard to make talents like blood craze not totally useless in arena) which is a nice boost to threat.

What to look for in hybrid threat pieces.
Some of the tanking plate out there is itemized quite well for DPS offtanks. Look for items that have armor (derived from ilvl unless it has bonus armor out of its item budget), stamina, strength (or theoretically AP), hit rating (if not hit capped), as well as defense. Some examples of good hybrid DPS tanking pieces from Wowhead: 23 DPS tank friendly armor pieces (link).

Expertise - Still a great stat.
Not landing a Bloodthirst (or MS) is going to create a large dip in your short-term threat per second. Before making room for pure DPS pieces for threat, consider making room for some of the usual suspects of Expertise armor & jewelry: [Brooch of Deftness], [Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx], [Gauntlets of Enforcement], and [Shapeshifter's Signet].

Gems and Enchants.
Depending on how committed you are to being a DPS tank hybrid warrior, consider "sovereign" purple gems (str/stam) in red sockets instead of ignoring socket color as a protection warrior typically would, especially if you can recover stamina via the socket bonus. Similarly, a meek threat piece can get a significant boost (at the expense of avoidance/survival) by using enchants traditionally reserved for DPS pieces. You shouldn't re-enchant at the expense of your avoidance set, however.

Weapon considerations
If you've chosen the MS route, it's fairly common sense to go with a weapon type that matches your weapon specialization and if you need snap aggro, also a slow weapon speed. Otherwise mainhand choice very much follows the guidelines from the protection section, with DPS stats on the weapon being a little more attractive. [The Brutalizer] is still the clear winner for a Bloodthirst weapon due to the expertise (except for humans due to expertise on swords from racial).

A1.4. DPS Tank talent choices.

Arms vs. Fury - what they offer for tanks
At the start of this section, the case for BS over MS as the snap threat tool of choice was presented, but there are other tanking related factors to keep in mind from the trees.
Arms:

Deflection being a great avoidance per talent point option is hard to give up (not necessary to do so with say 5/41/15).
Likewise imp. TC has mitigation implications as well as AoE threat benefits that most fury/prot builds will forgo.
Improved discipline, while not normally a DPS favorite, can provide more shield walls per attempts on progression content.
Blood Frenzy can be a big help to the raid if nobody else has it.
Deep Arms. Pure DPS specs avoid deep arms for a reason, but if you're unable to reach Flurry and imp. Slam anyway, a shorter cooldown on MS could potentially alter your skill cycle when building threat.

Fury:

Cruelty is a fantastic threat talent that's hard to give up (only necessary if trying 31/0/30).
Improved Demo Shout. Try to get 2/5 if your groups don't use Curse of Recklessness, 5/5 if they do (CoR is well worth it for your personal threat while offtanking).
Piercing Howl. Of Primary use on AoE pulls to keep mobs nearby (within taunt range) who are peeling off towards casters.
Commanding Presence. Extra AP when you need to optimize threat, extra hitpoints when survival is all that matters.
Weapon mastery. When you're forced to wear avoidance gear to survive you will be grateful for its contribution to threat. If you've wiped dodges off the boss' table with expertise, on the other hand, it will be temporarily wasted. A common choice for pure DPS specs anyway.
Precision. Makes being hit capped in avoidance gear much easier to accomplish, and lets you opt for DPS pieces with more Strength/AP than hit when boosting threat. Also a favorite for pure DPS specs.
Rampage. Along with improved Berserker stance, these deep fury talents generally outperform 1h spec for straight DPS. While building threat, it can be hard to find a free Global Cooldown for Rampage in a normal skill cycle, but if you get an opportunity to get it up early on a long offtanking session (i.e. something that takes longer than 30 seconds to die) where threat matters, it will be worth losing the GCD for a threat skill to get rampage up.

Dabbler builds
It is certainly an option to only get Tactical Mastery and go no deeper in protection. It's the only way to get Blood Frenzy and imp. Slam (but still losing flurry) on an otherwise normal PvE DPS MS build. On the fury side, you can still keep imp. Thunderclap, and even impale at the cost of rampage. Almost into the next category is 8/41/12 to have imp. Thunderclap and one point of Defiance.

Up to Defiance (with last stand option).
With 3 points of Defiance giving 6 points of expertise in all stances (since 2.3), this is a particularly attractive option for a lot of currently full-DPS warriors. Between the shield specialization route and the toughness route, it's likely better for raid offtanking to go for improved shield block. Two charges give significantly better crush protection. The 15% threat from defiance also makes a large impact on the levels of sustained TPS one can maintain.

Last stand is a great survival talent (even while purely DPS'ing it can buy time for a raid healer to get around to you and keep you alive) and just one more point, so for most players who have already invested 10+ points in protection it will be hard to resist.

The trade offs from the arms and fury trees are more on the DPS end of things. As mentioned earlier, a PvE MS build loses a lot by not having improved slam. In Fury, the choice is between 5/41/15 and 0/44/17 is forgoing 5% parry for DPS extras in fury (eg. imp execute or 5/5 DW specialty) and improved taunt / improved sunder. Given that many gear sets for hybrid threat may already be a little on the daredevil side, strongly consider keeping deflection if you're serious about the tanking part of hybrid play. Getting 5% parry from gear would cost more in lost threat (and DPS in said threat gear for "tank then DPS" fights) than not having those last 3 fury talents.

Improved HS has the benefit of being of potential use in both tank and DPS mode. It may be a good choice if you're using HS a lot in either scenario while still consciously managing rage. If you're low rage and avoiding HS due to it's low TPR/DPR, or flooded with rage and not worrying about "per rage" factors at all, the talent may end up under-utilized.

Up to 1h spec.
One-handed weapon specialization is multiplicative with MS and Bloodthirst, but generally EJ posters using the DPS spreadsheet have found in DPS mode it's still going to be behind having imp. slam or rampage + imp. zerker stance. Still, the reason to go this deep in prot would be for the added tanking utility of the other 10 talent points getting up to 1h spec, especially toughness if it was skipped in lieu of improved shield block in a 15 talent point scenario.

Another question going this deep into protection is whether a full protection build can output better damage. Arms and 1h spec have worse synergy than DW Fury and 1h spec, so a proper DPS set for devastate would generally come out ahead of 31/0/30. With Fury, it's still probably worth checking spreadsheets for your own gear to be sure.

A1.5. DPS Warrior Threat Per Rage and skill rotation decision making.

Doing the math for your threat numbers.

Everything besides MS/BT was covered in more than enough detail in the protection warrior guide.

Here's how you figure Raw Damage for a normal MS/BT for each (assuming non-dagger 1h).

MS:

[ (min+max)/2 + (AP / 14) X 2.4 ] X D. Stance (0.9) X 1h spec (1.0 to 1.1) X Armor (~0.7)

BT:

[ AP * 0.45 ] X D. Stance (0.9) X 1h spec (1.0 to 1.1) X Armor (~0.7)

*Note: you can use average normal hit values from combat log / WWS data if you prefer.

Then combine your normal MS/BT value ("NRM DMG") with your combat table vs. a boss for Average Damage:

Block% X (NRM DMG - Blk Value) + Crit% X (2 x Impale X NRM DMG) + Hits% X NRM DMG

Single attack average MS/BT Threat:

Average Damage X Defensive Stance (1.3) X Defiance (1.0 to 1.15) X Tac Mastery (1.63 for 3/3 points) X Threat Enchant (1.0 to 1.02)

TPR = Avg. MS/BT Threat /30          TPS = (Avg. MS/BT Threat X # Uses per Cycle) / Cycle time

Note, if you're at all handy with excel, it is very easy to add these threat calculations to the Warrior TPS Spreadsheet. At the time of this post, the owner of that thread notes plans to add MS/BT options himself soon.

Low rage vs. High rage considerations.
Pure DPS builds

At a certain point (eg ~1600+ raid buffed AP for BT), MS/BT will still edge out revenge in snap threat value but at such a rage inefficient manner that they should be avoided except for very high rage situations.

Efficient TPR prioritization: Revenge > Shield Bash > Sunder > BT/MS (if surplus rage, otherwise not worth losing the GCD) > HS (also under rage dump conditions).

Builds with 3/3 TM
Generally, with typical gear choices, you will find the change to tactical mastery has done the following for Mortal Strike and Bloodthirst:

MS/BT will likely have the best snap threat total for DPS warriors in all cases.
Revenge still outperforms MS/BT on a TPR basis.
In low-threat gear HS is still lower TPR than BT, but with 0 str from gear it can get very close. Close enough that saving the GCD for interrupts and using HS for threat isn't horrible.
Sunder armor should generally be worse TPR than MS/BT (possible exception: no str on gear & no raid buffs)
Shield Bash is easily 2nd for TPR (due to dirt cheap rage cost), but doesn't add a huge amount of TPS in a given global cooldown. Due to the daze synergy with HS, it is still probably worth using over sunder for TPS when its cooldown is available if you are spamming HS in your threat cycle. Do bear in mind that there are a few rare instances where the interrupt actually works and is handy in which case the 12 second cooldown should be reserved for interrupts.

A prioritized sequence for skills for efficient TPR (low rage) would be something like "Revenge > Shield Bash > BT (if rage available) > Sunder (if revenge, shield bash, & BT on cooldown) > HS (if rage available)". Of course getting a sunder stack on a mob for the sake of the debuff makes sense on anything that doesn't die quick.

Efficient use of TPR in a rage "starvation" situation is going to be more likely a "Revenge>Shield Bash>Sunder" priority, forgoing the 30 rage for bloodthirst unless there is a significant rage spike. Fortunately, if hit capped with some expertise and DPS stats and a decent 1h, starvation scenarios should be quite rare.

Sample numbers.
Let's take the following example Threat/OT set (not necessarily optimal, but pretty decent - gemmed and enchanted for threat):
Weapon: [The Brutalizer], Shield: [Kaz'rogal's Hardened Heart], Ranged: [Gyro-Balanced Khorium Destroyer], Helm: [Onslaught Greathelm], Neck: [Brooch of Deftness], Shoulder: [Destroyer Shoulderguards], Chest: [Vengeful Gladiator's Plate Chestpiece], Belt: [Crimson Girdle of the Indomitable], Legs: [Vengeful Gladiator's Plate Legguards], Boots: [Battlescar Boots], Bracers: [Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx], Gloves: [Gauntlets of Enforcement], Back: [Dory's Embrace], Ring1: [Band of the Eternal Defender], Ring2: [Shapeshifter's Signet], Trinket1: [Bloodlust Brooch], Trinket2: [Hourglass of the Unraveller].

This set comes in at 1874 raid buffed AP. Let's presume at least one point of precision to cap off +hit, and conservatively estimate average haste from flurry uptime at 9.5% average haste. We have 32 total expertise, no dodges, est. 5.6% remaining parries, 5.6% block, 25.8% raid buffed crit, and the remainder of skill swings (63%) hits are hits. For a 5/41/15 build Here's how the threat numbers for that gear set work out (numbers courtesy of the TPS spreadsheet):

Single Use Threat (highest to lowest):

Bloodthirst: 1550 threat (similar to a ~540 buffed block value Shield Slam /w same expertise/hit/crit)
Revenge: 802 threat
Heroic Strike: 892 threat (584 more than a normal swing)
Windfury Proc: 453 threat
Sunder Armor: 425 threat
Cleave: 640 threat (per target) (242 more than a normal swing vs. single target)
Normal Swing: 398 threat (est. 25% glance rate)
Shield Bash: 422 threat (+ daze which will increase subsequent HS threat)

Threat Per Rage (TPR):

Revenge: 161 TPR
Shield Bash: 84 TPR
Bloodthirst: 52 TPR (similar to a ~100 buffed block value Shield Slam /w same expertise/hit/crit)
Sunder Armor: 28 TPR (35 TPR talented)
Heroic Strike: 23 TPR (27 TPR talented)

Threat Per Second (TPS) in a 6.2s duration "low rage" cycle consisting of 1 HS (4.2 infinite rage), 3.2 main hand (0 infinite rage), 0.7 windfury, 1 Bloodthirst, 1 Revenge, and 1 Sunder:

Bloodthirst: 250 TPS - 29.5%
Main Hand: 208 TPS - 24.6% (0 TPS under "infinite rage" conditions)
Revenge: 130 TPS - 15.3%
Heroic Strike: 144 TPS - 17% note: 94 TPS more than a single white swing (610 TPS under "infinite rage" conditions - 337 TPS more than white swings)
*Shield Bash: 68.1 TPS (* in place of a sunder GCD - increases HS TPS).
Sunder Armor: 68.5 TPS - 8%
Windfury Proc: 51.7 TPS - 5.6%
Total: 848 TPS - 6.4 rage per second (1110 TPS & 17.6 rage per second under "infinite rage" conditions)

Considering this set in a "first to die" scenario, if one uses this tanking set and weapon swaps in Dual Wielded merciless gladiator 2.6 speed weapons for dps (after their target dies presumably) and switches to Berserker stance, the version of the DPS calculator I'm using estimates 847 DPS raid buffed in a warrior/rogue/shaman group.

For comparison, here's the TPS ranks for the same skill cycle in the same gear for a pure 17/44/0 fury build:

Main Hand: 178 TPS - 27.5%
Bloodthirst: 131 TPS - 20.3%
Revenge: 111 TPS - 17.2%
Heroic Strike: 123 TPS - 19.0% (523 TPS under "infinite rage" conditions - 289 TPS more than white swings)
*Shield Bash: 58.3 TPS (* in place of a sunder GCD - increases HS TPS).
Sunder armor: 58.3 TPS - 9.0%
Windfury Proc: 44 TPS - 6.8%
Total: 648 TPS - 6.4 rage per second (869.7 TPS & 17.6 rage per second under "infinite rage" conditions)

Spreadsheet estimated DPS with 17/44 in the tanking gear with DW weapon swap: 905 DPS (6.8% more than hybrid)

(note: The limited rage setup produces 31% more cycle TPS with TM and Defiance than the pure DPS spec)

A1.6. Final Words & highlights of feedback/commentary on DPS War tanking.
Hybrid DPS tanking specs (esp the Fury/Prot variants) appear in theory to be viable alternatives to deep Protection for warriors who are not the Main Tank of their group, but yet are called upon to do non-trivial tanking on a fairly regular basis. How viable depends on gear, available healing, and group makeups in one's raid (eg. 5% crit from a feral is very nice to have), leaving it up for the individual tank to decide what approach they prefer. If DPS Hybrid tanking is uncomfortable for you, the Full Prot DPS'ing model is always an alternative approach.

There has been no mention of 2H tanking or DW tanking up to this point, and for good reason. Both were fun approaches for overgeared tanks in classic. If you're doing either approach now, you have some combination of overgearing and excess healing for the encounter in question. Shields in TBC have a ton of armor, enough so that if you're tanking something that requires a shield you will know right away without having to refer to theorycraft posts in an EJ thread.

In case someone wants to look up my Warrior on armory, the toon's name is "Olona" on Tichondrius, and it's an alt. I progression raid on my feral druid, and have not taken my warrior first hand into many of the circumstances some readers of this thread would hope to use a DPS hybrid tank for. That said, I leveled my warrior in classic as Fury/Prot, raided with it as my main during most of classic up 'till early Naxx frequently with hybrid builds (generally doing MT or primary OT work), and have played it in non-progression heroics & 10 mans as 5/41/15 since patch 2.3 arrived. Hybrid tanking happens to be a style of play I find fun, useful, and comfortable - I've even bothered to advocate for the play style once or twice on the Blizz forums over the years. My warrior's tanking sets are different than the sample set provided - most use a somewhat heavier mix of DPS pieces along with a few pure avoidance pieces while tanking heroics/10-mans since those mobs don't generally hit all that hard. The avoidance set is no different than what I would use for full avoidance if the warrior was full protection given my gear options.

I'm more than happy to update this mini-guide with feedback from TBC hybrid tank mains with direct progression experience, or have any mistakes/innacuracies corrected/updated by the thread owner & forum mods without my explicit consent.

Changelog:
12/17 - TPR of HS was being overestimated due to the threat spreadsheet counting white swing threat as part of HS threat for the purposes of TPR.
12/18 - Added Shield Bash information to Skill rotation section. Added Tactical Mastery bonus to manual MS/BT threat calculations (oops). Link to Wowhead source for Tactical Mastery bonus value in the introduction. Added mention of Enrage proccing in resilience gear. Softened language about improved heroic strike.
12/19 - Corrected calculation error for Shield Bash(and modified other parts of skill cycle section to reflect the higher resulting total threat per use) and added mention of the daze synergy.
12/20 - Typo. Added TPS values for pure 17/44 fury build for contrast.
1/15 - Caveat about brutalizer not being best in slot for humans (racial).

12/17/07, 8:32 PM	#318 (permalink)
Olon97 Von Kaiser Olond Tauren Druid <The Basin> Tichondrius	DPS Warrior Offtanking Guide Here we are: A1.1 Appendix: Tanking with a (mostly) DPS build. You're on call for tanking duties at times, but at other times someone else is the MT and you may as well do your best to DPS. While the devastate in DPS gear is one approach, another alternative to consider is having 31+ points in a DPS tree and taking advantage of the 63% threat bonus to Mortal Strike or Bloodthirst threat that 3 points in Tactical Mastery gives (source) so that you still produce adequate threat when tanking. Before going any further, it's worth noting that MS appears to be the weaker route from a pure PvE utility standpoint. Any significant investment in protection talents forces a PvE MS build to drop flurry and possibly imp. slam as well. Using a slow mainhand while tanking should keep the threat per second and snap aggro potential of MS, but at the cost of HS efficiency. The only raid-centric rationale that comes to mind for the MS approach is if you really need the MS debuff from your character to reduce a boss' healing mechanic. Bloodthirst will work more efficiently with a HS Spam friendly (fast) mainhand, precision makes reaching the 9% hit cap easier, and weapon mastery offers additional threat advantages if one hasn't already removed boss dodges via expertise. The DPS hybrid tanking approach is another balancing act between DPS for threat, and mitigation/avoidance for survivability, except you don't divide your attention between buffing shield slam with block value and buffing white dmg / HS / devastate with strength and attack power. The right balance between threat and survival depends on your healing crew, the specific bosses in question, and your roles on said bosses. A1.2. DPS Warrior tanking roles. Raid tanking, single boss, only tank - Your usual MT no-showed? In this situation there is no excuse not to use a full protection build for the benefit of the raid. Respecs are cheap. Raid tanking, boss encounter, first mob to die - take as much DPS potential as your healers and the fight's insta-gib risks will allow. Difference between this situation and 100% dps is considering crit immunity via resilience, steering clear of glass-cannon gear (leather). Any threat boosting talents you've picked up should help here presuming your group has big guns, but they should watch their threat meters regardless (esp. if circumstances force survival gear). Raid tanking, boss encounter, mob not first to die, time to build aggro - Here it's best to gear for survival. Threat talents are not likely to have much impact, but additional shield block charges can reduce crushing blows, and last stand can be very handy in an emergency. Raid tanking, single boss with multiple tanks - Many of these allow the use of taunt. In taunt fights, after reaching the hit cap (to eliminate taunt resists), it may be OK to gear for avoidance and benefit from threat established by the MT. Fights that depend on building secondary threat to alternate tanks, or snap threat from frequent aggro resets, on the other hand, may benefit from a more aggressive approach towards threat. Raid trash offtanking - Generally more forgiving from a survival standpoint, a single marked target should have similar considerations depending on kill order as in a boss encounter. With multiple targets or AoE pulls, don't forget sweeping strikes if you have it. 5 man MT'ing Heroics - DPS hybrid builds work fine for badge farming. The old tricks of stacking CC classes or getting Blessing of Salvation on the other party members can still help. Depending on group makeup, you'll likely have less bonus AP from buffs, so for trash pulls play with additional DPS pieces until you find a comfortable threat baseline for your group's kill speed. For multiple mobs without CC, use your DPS spec to your advantage: ranged/line of sight pull (allowing any CC to be done away from where you're tanking), Bloodrage, Berserker Rage a second before arrival, Sweeping Strikes as they reach you, Whirlwind (with shield still on) with at least 2 in range, then Defensive Stance and Cleaves + Thunder Claps. A1.3. DPS Warrior tanking gear. Shield block value is a mitigation only stat for a DPS hybrid build. Traditional DPS stats, on the other hand, significantly impact the skills (and white damage) that will likely make up 60-80% of the TPS in your skill cycle. This makes pure DPS pieces very tempting. The best DPS pieces for swapping in will have high ilvls (hence high armor) and respectable amounts of stamina, making them at least "survival" pieces if not avoidance pieces. If you don't have such DPS pieces available, you may be wiser to boost threat via jewelry first to avoid losing armor value. Making room for threat pieces: crit immunity via resilience. Of course, when thinking of high ilvl DPS pieces with lots of stamina Arena / S3 pieces (link) come to mind. Getting the 2 piece gladiator bonus significantly reduces the number of items with defense you'll need to reach crit immunity. Remember, add up the %s you see when you mouse over defense and resilience, being wary of rounding errors, and if the sum is greater than 5.6% you should have crit immunity. (rating conversions courtesy of Satrina): 39.42 resilience rating = 1 resilience skill = 1% reduction in chance to be crit 2.36 defense rating = 1 defense skill = 0.04% reduction in chance to be crit Note: at times in resilience gear you can potentially have enrage proc while not actually being crit (a mechanic from Blizzard to make talents like blood craze not totally useless in arena) which is a nice boost to threat. What to look for in hybrid threat pieces. Some of the tanking plate out there is itemized quite well for DPS offtanks. Look for items that have armor (derived from ilvl unless it has bonus armor out of its item budget), stamina, strength (or theoretically AP), hit rating (if not hit capped), as well as defense. Some examples of good hybrid DPS tanking pieces from Wowhead: 23 DPS tank friendly armor pieces (link). Expertise - Still a great stat. Not landing a Bloodthirst (or MS) is going to create a large dip in your short-term threat per second. Before making room for pure DPS pieces for threat, consider making room for some of the usual suspects of Expertise armor & jewelry: [Brooch of Deftness], [Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx], [Gauntlets of Enforcement], and [Shapeshifter's Signet]. Gems and Enchants. Depending on how committed you are to being a DPS tank hybrid warrior, consider "sovereign" purple gems (str/stam) in red sockets instead of ignoring socket color as a protection warrior typically would, especially if you can recover stamina via the socket bonus. Similarly, a meek threat piece can get a significant boost (at the expense of avoidance/survival) by using enchants traditionally reserved for DPS pieces. You shouldn't re-enchant at the expense of your avoidance set, however. Weapon considerations If you've chosen the MS route, it's fairly common sense to go with a weapon type that matches your weapon specialization and if you need snap aggro, also a slow weapon speed. Otherwise mainhand choice very much follows the guidelines from the protection section, with DPS stats on the weapon being a little more attractive. [The Brutalizer] is still the clear winner for a Bloodthirst weapon due to the expertise (except for humans due to expertise on swords from racial). A1.4. DPS Tank talent choices. Arms vs. Fury - what they offer for tanks At the start of this section, the case for BS over MS as the snap threat tool of choice was presented, but there are other tanking related factors to keep in mind from the trees. Arms: Deflection being a great avoidance per talent point option is hard to give up (not necessary to do so with say 5/41/15). Likewise imp. TC has mitigation implications as well as AoE threat benefits that most fury/prot builds will forgo. Improved discipline, while not normally a DPS favorite, can provide more shield walls per attempts on progression content. Blood Frenzy can be a big help to the raid if nobody else has it. Deep Arms. Pure DPS specs avoid deep arms for a reason, but if you're unable to reach Flurry and imp. Slam anyway, a shorter cooldown on MS could potentially alter your skill cycle when building threat. Fury: Cruelty is a fantastic threat talent that's hard to give up (only necessary if trying 31/0/30). Improved Demo Shout. Try to get 2/5 if your groups don't use Curse of Recklessness, 5/5 if they do (CoR is well worth it for your personal threat while offtanking). Piercing Howl. Of Primary use on AoE pulls to keep mobs nearby (within taunt range) who are peeling off towards casters. Commanding Presence. Extra AP when you need to optimize threat, extra hitpoints when survival is all that matters. Weapon mastery. When you're forced to wear avoidance gear to survive you will be grateful for its contribution to threat. If you've wiped dodges off the boss' table with expertise, on the other hand, it will be temporarily wasted. A common choice for pure DPS specs anyway. Precision. Makes being hit capped in avoidance gear much easier to accomplish, and lets you opt for DPS pieces with more Strength/AP than hit when boosting threat. Also a favorite for pure DPS specs. Rampage. Along with improved Berserker stance, these deep fury talents generally outperform 1h spec for straight DPS. While building threat, it can be hard to find a free Global Cooldown for Rampage in a normal skill cycle, but if you get an opportunity to get it up early on a long offtanking session (i.e. something that takes longer than 30 seconds to die) where threat matters, it will be worth losing the GCD for a threat skill to get rampage up. Dabbler builds It is certainly an option to only get Tactical Mastery and go no deeper in protection. It's the only way to get Blood Frenzy and imp. Slam (but still losing flurry) on an otherwise normal PvE DPS MS build. On the fury side, you can still keep imp. Thunderclap, and even impale at the cost of rampage. Almost into the next category is 8/41/12 to have imp. Thunderclap and one point of Defiance. Up to Defiance (with last stand option). With 3 points of Defiance giving 6 points of expertise in all stances (since 2.3), this is a particularly attractive option for a lot of currently full-DPS warriors. Between the shield specialization route and the toughness route, it's likely better for raid offtanking to go for improved shield block. Two charges give significantly better crush protection. The 15% threat from defiance also makes a large impact on the levels of sustained TPS one can maintain. Last stand is a great survival talent (even while purely DPS'ing it can buy time for a raid healer to get around to you and keep you alive) and just one more point, so for most players who have already invested 10+ points in protection it will be hard to resist. The trade offs from the arms and fury trees are more on the DPS end of things. As mentioned earlier, a PvE MS build loses a lot by not having improved slam. In Fury, the choice is between 5/41/15 and 0/44/17 is forgoing 5% parry for DPS extras in fury (eg. imp execute or 5/5 DW specialty) and improved taunt / improved sunder. Given that many gear sets for hybrid threat may already be a little on the daredevil side, strongly consider keeping deflection if you're serious about the tanking part of hybrid play. Getting 5% parry from gear would cost more in lost threat (and DPS in said threat gear for "tank then DPS" fights) than not having those last 3 fury talents. Improved HS has the benefit of being of potential use in both tank and DPS mode. It may be a good choice if you're using HS a lot in either scenario while still consciously managing rage. If you're low rage and avoiding HS due to it's low TPR/DPR, or flooded with rage and not worrying about "per rage" factors at all, the talent may end up under-utilized. Up to 1h spec. One-handed weapon specialization is multiplicative with MS and Bloodthirst, but generally EJ posters using the DPS spreadsheet have found in DPS mode it's still going to be behind having imp. slam or rampage + imp. zerker stance. Still, the reason to go this deep in prot would be for the added tanking utility of the other 10 talent points getting up to 1h spec, especially toughness if it was skipped in lieu of improved shield block in a 15 talent point scenario. Another question going this deep into protection is whether a full protection build can output better damage. Arms and 1h spec have worse synergy than DW Fury and 1h spec, so a proper DPS set for devastate would generally come out ahead of 31/0/30. With Fury, it's still probably worth checking spreadsheets for your own gear to be sure. A1.5. DPS Warrior Threat Per Rage and skill rotation decision making. *Doing the math for your* threat numbers. Everything besides MS/BT was covered in more than enough detail in the protection warrior guide. Here's how you figure Raw Damage for a normal MS/BT** for each (assuming non-dagger 1h). MS: [ (min+max)/2 + (AP / 14) X 2.4 ] X D. Stance (0.9) X 1h spec (1.0 to 1.1) X Armor (~0.7) BT: [ AP * 0.45 ] X D. Stance (0.9) X 1h spec (1.0 to 1.1) X Armor (~0.7) Note: you can use average normal hit values from combat log / WWS data if you prefer. Then combine your normal MS/BT* value ("NRM DMG") with your combat table vs. a boss for Average Damage: Block% X (NRM DMG - Blk Value) + Crit% X (2 x Impale X NRM DMG) + Hits% X NRM DMG Single attack average MS/BT Threat: Average Damage X Defensive Stance (1.3) X Defiance (1.0 to 1.15) X Tac Mastery (1.63 for 3/3 points) X Threat Enchant (1.0 to 1.02) TPR = Avg. MS/BT Threat /30 TPS = (Avg. MS/BT Threat X # Uses per Cycle) / Cycle time Note, if you're at all handy with excel, it is very easy to add these threat calculations to the Warrior TPS Spreadsheet. At the time of this post, the owner of that thread notes plans to add MS/BT options himself soon. Low rage vs. High rage considerations. Pure DPS builds At a certain point (eg ~1600+ raid buffed AP for BT), MS/BT will still edge out revenge in snap threat value but at such a rage inefficient manner that they should be avoided except for very high rage situations. Efficient TPR prioritization: Revenge > Shield Bash > Sunder > BT/MS (if surplus rage, otherwise not worth losing the GCD) > HS (also under rage dump conditions). Builds with 3/3 TM Generally, with typical gear choices, you will find the change to tactical mastery has done the following for Mortal Strike and Bloodthirst: MS/BT will likely have the best snap threat total for DPS warriors in all cases. Revenge still outperforms MS/BT on a TPR basis. In low-threat gear HS is still lower TPR than BT, but with 0 str from gear it can get very close. Close enough that saving the GCD for interrupts and using HS for threat isn't horrible. Sunder armor should generally be worse TPR than MS/BT (possible exception: no str on gear & no raid buffs) Shield Bash is easily 2nd for TPR (due to dirt cheap rage cost), but doesn't add a huge amount of TPS in a given global cooldown. Due to the daze synergy with HS, it is still probably worth using over sunder for TPS when its cooldown is available if you are spamming HS in your threat cycle. Do bear in mind that there are a few rare instances where the interrupt actually works and is handy in which case the 12 second cooldown should be reserved for interrupts. A prioritized sequence for skills for efficient TPR (low rage) would be something like "Revenge > Shield Bash > BT (if rage available) > Sunder (if revenge, shield bash, & BT on cooldown) > HS (if rage available)". Of course getting a sunder stack on a mob for the sake of the debuff makes sense on anything that doesn't die quick. Efficient use of TPR in a rage "starvation" situation is going to be more likely a "Revenge>Shield Bash>Sunder" priority, forgoing the 30 rage for bloodthirst unless there is a significant rage spike. Fortunately, if hit capped with some expertise and DPS stats and a decent 1h, starvation scenarios should be quite rare. Sample numbers. Let's take the following example Threat/OT set (not necessarily optimal, but pretty decent - gemmed and enchanted for threat): Weapon: [The Brutalizer], Shield: [Kaz'rogal's Hardened Heart], Ranged: [Gyro-Balanced Khorium Destroyer], Helm: [Onslaught Greathelm], Neck: [Brooch of Deftness], Shoulder: [Destroyer Shoulderguards], Chest: [Vengeful Gladiator's Plate Chestpiece], Belt: [Crimson Girdle of the Indomitable], Legs: [Vengeful Gladiator's Plate Legguards], Boots: [Battlescar Boots], Bracers: [Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx], Gloves: [Gauntlets of Enforcement], Back: [Dory's Embrace], Ring1: [Band of the Eternal Defender], Ring2: [Shapeshifter's Signet], Trinket1: [Bloodlust Brooch], Trinket2: [Hourglass of the Unraveller]. This set comes in at 1874 raid buffed AP. Let's presume at least one point of precision to cap off +hit, and conservatively estimate average haste from flurry uptime at 9.5% average haste. We have 32 total expertise, no dodges, est. 5.6% remaining parries, 5.6% block, 25.8% raid buffed crit, and the remainder of skill swings (63%) hits are hits. For a 5/41/15 build Here's how the threat numbers for that gear set work out (numbers courtesy of the TPS spreadsheet): Single Use Threat (highest to lowest): Bloodthirst: 1550 threat (similar to a ~540 buffed block value Shield Slam /w same expertise/hit/crit) Revenge: 802 threat Heroic Strike: 892 threat (584 more than a normal swing) Windfury Proc: 453 threat Sunder Armor: 425 threat Cleave: 640 threat (per target) (242 more than a normal swing vs. single target) Normal Swing: 398 threat (est. 25% glance rate) Shield Bash: 422 threat (+ daze which will increase subsequent HS threat) Threat Per Rage (TPR): Revenge: 161 TPR Shield Bash: 84 TPR Bloodthirst: 52 TPR (similar to a ~100 buffed block value Shield Slam /w same expertise/hit/crit) Sunder Armor: 28 TPR (35 TPR talented) Heroic Strike: 23 TPR (27 TPR talented) Threat Per Second (TPS) in a 6.2s duration "low rage" cycle consisting of 1 HS (4.2 infinite rage), 3.2 main hand (0 infinite rage), 0.7 windfury, 1 Bloodthirst, 1 Revenge, and 1 Sunder: Bloodthirst: 250 TPS - 29.5% Main Hand: 208 TPS - 24.6% (0 TPS under "infinite rage" conditions) Revenge: 130 TPS - 15.3% Heroic Strike: 144 TPS - 17% note: 94 TPS more than a single white swing (610 TPS under "infinite rage" conditions - 337 TPS more than white swings) Shield Bash: 68.1 TPS ( in place of a sunder GCD - increases HS TPS). Sunder Armor: 68.5 TPS - 8% Windfury Proc: 51.7 TPS - 5.6% Total: 848 TPS - 6.4 rage per second (1110 TPS & 17.6 rage per second under "infinite rage" conditions) Considering this set in a "first to die" scenario, if one uses this tanking set and weapon swaps in Dual Wielded merciless gladiator 2.6 speed weapons for dps (after their target dies presumably) and switches to Berserker stance, the version of the DPS calculator I'm using estimates 847 DPS raid buffed in a warrior/rogue/shaman group. For comparison, here's the TPS ranks for the same skill cycle in the same gear for a pure 17/44/0 fury build: Main Hand: 178 TPS - 27.5% Bloodthirst: 131 TPS - 20.3% Revenge: 111 TPS - 17.2% Heroic Strike: 123 TPS - 19.0% (523 TPS under "infinite rage" conditions - 289 TPS more than white swings) Shield Bash: 58.3 TPS ( in place of a sunder GCD - increases HS TPS). Sunder armor: 58.3 TPS - 9.0% Windfury Proc: 44 TPS - 6.8% Total: 648 TPS - 6.4 rage per second (869.7 TPS & 17.6 rage per second under "infinite rage" conditions) Spreadsheet estimated DPS with 17/44 in the tanking gear with DW weapon swap: 905 DPS (6.8% more than hybrid) (note: The limited rage setup produces 31% more cycle TPS with TM and Defiance than the pure DPS spec) A1.6. Final Words & highlights of feedback/commentary on DPS War tanking. Hybrid DPS tanking specs (esp the Fury/Prot variants) appear in theory to be viable alternatives to deep Protection for warriors who are not the Main Tank of their group, but yet are called upon to do non-trivial tanking on a fairly regular basis. How viable depends on gear, available healing, and group makeups in one's raid (eg. 5% crit from a feral is very nice to have), leaving it up for the individual tank to decide what approach they prefer. If DPS Hybrid tanking is uncomfortable for you, the Full Prot DPS'ing model is always an alternative approach. There has been no mention of 2H tanking or DW tanking up to this point, and for good reason. Both were fun approaches for overgeared tanks in classic. If you're doing either approach now, you have some combination of overgearing and excess healing for the encounter in question. Shields in TBC have a ton of armor, enough so that if you're tanking something that requires a shield you will know right away without having to refer to theorycraft posts in an EJ thread. In case someone wants to look up my Warrior on armory, the toon's name is "Olona" on Tichondrius, and it's an alt. I progression raid on my feral druid, and have not taken my warrior first hand into many of the circumstances some readers of this thread would hope to use a DPS hybrid tank for. That said, I leveled my warrior in classic as Fury/Prot, raided with it as my main during most of classic up 'till early Naxx frequently with hybrid builds (generally doing MT or primary OT work), and have played it in non-progression heroics & 10 mans as 5/41/15 since patch 2.3 arrived. Hybrid tanking happens to be a style of play I find fun, useful, and comfortable - I've even bothered to advocate for the play style once or twice on the Blizz forums over the years. My warrior's tanking sets are different than the sample set provided - most use a somewhat heavier mix of DPS pieces along with a few pure avoidance pieces while tanking heroics/10-mans since those mobs don't generally hit all that hard. The avoidance set is no different than what I would use for full avoidance if the warrior was full protection given my gear options. I'm more than happy to update this mini-guide with feedback from TBC hybrid tank mains with direct progression experience, or have any mistakes/innacuracies corrected/updated by the thread owner & forum mods without my explicit consent. Changelog: 12/17 - TPR of HS was being overestimated due to the threat spreadsheet counting white swing threat as part of HS threat for the purposes of TPR. 12/18 - Added Shield Bash information to Skill rotation section. Added Tactical Mastery bonus to manual MS/BT threat calculations (oops). Link to Wowhead source for Tactical Mastery bonus value in the introduction. Added mention of Enrage proccing in resilience gear. Softened language about improved heroic strike. 12/19 - Corrected calculation error for Shield Bash(and modified other parts of skill cycle section to reflect the higher resulting total threat per use) and added mention of the daze synergy. 12/20 - Typo. Added TPS values for pure 17/44 fury build for contrast. 1/15 - Caveat about brutalizer not being best in slot for humans (racial). Last edited by Olon97 : 02/15/08 at 4:12 PM. Reason: caveat about brutalizer not best in slot for humans (racial)