Elitist Jerks - View Single Post - Progressive Nerfs - suiting instances for competion among raiders and casual friendly

• songster · 02/17/08, 1:38 PM

There are more problems for casuals than the ones you've outlined, one of the key ones being loot dilution. While a top-end guild probably has a roster of no more than 30 people with average ~90% attendance, a semi-casual group will have a roster of ~50 people with average 50% attendance. A very casual group will have a roster of 75 people with average 33% attendance.

Thus, even if they perform just as a highly as a hardcore guild relative to their gear level, they still have to farm content for three times as long just to gear everyone up. My own group is just now moving into T6 content - did our last attunement run this week (hopefully). We killed Kael half a dozen times, same as many of the guilds above us. Half their members have T5 chests. About a quarter of our members have T5 chests.

Thus, in order to open up the instances to casual groups, as well as lifting the social barriers that hinder progress (read: attunements), Blizzard needs to make good-quality gear accessible for less effort. Even when they do make the gear more accessible, do not think that every Tom, Dick and Harry will suddenly be sporting full Tier armor sets. No more than half a dozen people in my group will ever have a full set of Tier armor, at any Tier of progression. We just don't have the farm time available to collect the full set.

One thing I think does Blizzard no favours is the secrecy they maintain about their future plans for raiders of differing standards/commitment levels. One of the reasons the attunement change has been so acrimonious is the fact that it was unexpected: people didn't have time to adjust their expectations.

I would like to have them lay out the competition much more explicitly, as follows.

1) The top two instances of PvE content are the "contest ground". There are attunements, high resist fights, gear checks etc., and it is explicitly acknowledged that these are a challenge that is set for the top end guilds to overcome.

2) Previous Tiers of PvE content are the "open content". Attunements are lifted, and gear of equivalent quality is made more widely available through badge systems, to help the more casual people into and through the instances. In some circumstances, resist requirements could be lowered, if gathering resist gear is a particular "hurdle".

3) Opening of the lower Tiers is explicitly tied to the world competition among the top guilds. When Vashj is defeated for the first time, Karazhan attunement is lifted worldwide. When Kael is defeated, Gruul/Magtheridon attunements are lifted. When Archimonde is defeated, SSC attunement is lifted. When Illidan is downed, TK attunement is lifted. And so on and so forth. As the attunements for each instance are lifted, badge loot of matching quality becomes available to aid gearing up.

This has two major advantages:
A) It sets the parameters for the contest between the best of the best, so they can adjust their expectations to the fact that no, T5-quality loot isn't always going to be a marker of high-quality raiding.

B) It explicitly gives the more casual groups hope. I know so many people who quit raiding after the mess that was pre-2.1 raiding, or quit over Vashj/Kael vial requirements. If they had had an indication ahead of time that they weren't going to get left further and further behind the bleeding edge, I think many would still be playing today.

This model for PvE competition is obviously modelled quite closely on the Arena seasons, which have been wildly successful in terms of encouraging participation without destroying the sense of competition among the top end. When you're duking it out on the leaderboard for Season 4 titles, please don't tell me you'll give a toss that S2 gear is now available for honor, or that the winners of Season 2 will feel their achievement is somehow "devalued" !

And, as with the Arena, there needs to be something more than just the top season's gear available for the best of the best of the best. Arena has titles and mounts - the same could be done for PvE. Have the Kael phoenix mount be a guaranteed drop for all 25 people present at the server first kill. Have titles available for the fastest end-to-end clear of each instance, or for clearing an entire instance with zero deaths, or similar. Cosmetic, sure, but they'll be lasting. "Scarab Lord McPvE-King" will be wowing people long after even T6 gear is made obsolete.

02/17/08, 1:38 PM	#27 (permalink)
• songster Chief Passenger Schizzle Gnome Rogue <Odds and Ends> Earthen Ring (EU)	There are more problems for casuals than the ones you've outlined, one of the key ones being loot dilution. While a top-end guild probably has a roster of no more than 30 people with average ~90% attendance, a semi-casual group will have a roster of ~50 people with average 50% attendance. A very casual group will have a roster of 75 people with average 33% attendance. Thus, even if they perform just as a highly as a hardcore guild relative to their gear level, they still have to farm content for three times as long just to gear everyone up. My own group is just now moving into T6 content - did our last attunement run this week (hopefully). We killed Kael half a dozen times, same as many of the guilds above us. Half their members have T5 chests. About a quarter of our members have T5 chests. Thus, in order to open up the instances to casual groups, as well as lifting the social barriers that hinder progress (read: attunements), Blizzard needs to make good-quality gear accessible for less effort. Even when they do make the gear more accessible, do not think that every Tom, Dick and Harry will suddenly be sporting full Tier armor sets. No more than half a dozen people in my group will ever have a full set of Tier armor, at any Tier of progression. We just don't have the farm time available to collect the full set. One thing I think does Blizzard no favours is the secrecy they maintain about their future plans for raiders of differing standards/commitment levels. One of the reasons the attunement change has been so acrimonious is the fact that it was unexpected: people didn't have time to adjust their expectations. I would like to have them lay out the competition much more explicitly, as follows. 1) The top two instances of PvE content are the "contest ground". There are attunements, high resist fights, gear checks etc., and it is explicitly acknowledged that these are a challenge that is set for the top end guilds to overcome. 2) Previous Tiers of PvE content are the "open content". Attunements are lifted, and gear of equivalent quality is made more widely available through badge systems, to help the more casual people into and through the instances. In some circumstances, resist requirements could be lowered, if gathering resist gear is a particular "hurdle". 3) Opening of the lower Tiers is explicitly tied to the world competition among the top guilds. When Vashj is defeated for the first time, Karazhan attunement is lifted worldwide. When Kael is defeated, Gruul/Magtheridon attunements are lifted. When Archimonde is defeated, SSC attunement is lifted. When Illidan is downed, TK attunement is lifted. And so on and so forth. As the attunements for each instance are lifted, badge loot of matching quality becomes available to aid gearing up. This has two major advantages: A) It sets the parameters for the contest between the best of the best, so they can adjust their expectations to the fact that no, T5-quality loot isn't always going to be a marker of high-quality raiding. B) It explicitly gives the more casual groups hope. I know so many people who quit raiding after the mess that was pre-2.1 raiding, or quit over Vashj/Kael vial requirements. If they had had an indication ahead of time that they weren't going to get left further and further behind the bleeding edge, I think many would still be playing today. This model for PvE competition is obviously modelled quite closely on the Arena seasons, which have been wildly successful in terms of encouraging participation without destroying the sense of competition among the top end. When you're duking it out on the leaderboard for Season 4 titles, please don't tell me you'll give a toss that S2 gear is now available for honor, or that the winners of Season 2 will feel their achievement is somehow "devalued" ! And, as with the Arena, there needs to be something more than just the top season's gear available for the best of the best of the best. Arena has titles and mounts - the same could be done for PvE. Have the Kael phoenix mount be a guaranteed drop for all 25 people present at the server first kill. Have titles available for the fastest end-to-end clear of each instance, or for clearing an entire instance with zero deaths, or similar. Cosmetic, sure, but they'll be lasting. "Scarab Lord McPvE-King" will be wowing people long after even T6 gear is made obsolete.