Originally Posted by Coel
I don't see a problem with just leaving content the same and having all facets of players face the same content at their own pace. Raiders get their challenge, casuals get theirs, in their own time. Casuals don't always totally want to beat all the content in the game, although many of them think they do. Many semi-casuals(kara-type raiders) do it because there is something bigger out there, and if they ever finished all of the content in the game, the lure of a possible drop the next week might not keep them in the game the way it does with min-maxers.
|
I have never been on the cutting edge, or for that matter the same damn sword, as the raid crowd. And I agree with this. This is one of the things I think Blizz did get right in vanilla. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I could be), but most raid dungeons were mostly just tuned, not nerfed down for casuals. I think it is also correct to say that most of these places didn't need nerfing, because the pacing of their release allowed even the most casual the opportunity to finish the dungeon in it's current form. Nerfs were not needed, except for tuning.
Originally Posted by songster
There are more problems for casuals than the ones you've outlined, one of the key ones being loot dilution. While a top-end guild probably has a roster of no more than 30 people with average ~90% attendance, a semi-casual group will have a roster of ~50 people with average 50% attendance. A very casual group will have a roster of 75 people with average 33% attendance.
|
I have found this to be more the case in guilds I've been in the past. All were very casual, and this definitely is what the guild demographic was. We needed twice as many players in the roster to do any given raid dungeon consistently.
Originally Posted by songster
I would like to have them lay out the competition much more explicitly, as follows.
1) The top two instances of PvE content are the "contest ground". There are attunements, high resist fights, gear checks etc., and it is explicitly acknowledged that these are a challenge that is set for the top end guilds to overcome.
2) Previous Tiers of PvE content are the "open content". Attunements are lifted, and gear of equivalent quality is made more widely available through badge systems, to help the more casual people into and through the instances. In some circumstances, resist requirements could be lowered, if gathering resist gear is a particular "hurdle".
3) Opening of the lower Tiers is explicitly tied to the world competition among the top guilds. When Vashj is defeated for the first time, Karazhan attunement is lifted worldwide. When Kael is defeated, Gruul/Magtheridon attunements are lifted. When Archimonde is defeated, SSC attunement is lifted. When Illidan is downed, TK attunement is lifted. And so on and so forth. As the attunements for each instance are lifted, badge loot of matching quality becomes available to aid gearing up.
|
Likewise, I don't see the problem with Blizz implementing two paths of progression, which it seems they might be considering already with 10-mans. I don't see why this would not be feasible. Everyone gets their cake, and there is always the option for a greater challenge. Then again, this is part of the current design philosophy, and where Blizz seems to get hung up the most is trying to balance around all these playstyles (hi Arena), and the actual reward for playing starts to become too watered down.
Originally Posted by Nezralix
The issue is that "casual" vs. "hardcore" is an idiotic distinction that fails to account for reality.
|
Hardcore is easier to define. I'd say there is a Hardcore crowd and an Other-than-hardcore crowd. Casual just means too many things, whereas hardcore is generally accepted as players who like difficult content and spend more time to consume it.
Originally Posted by Metrosexuelf
I also think it is pretty fallacious to say raiders want 'few as possible spoilers.' Why do you think websites like MMO-Champion and WorldofRaids are so popular? People want spoilers and advance information. Certainly there are a few guilds that want to learn encounters on their own but I would be shocked if the vast majority of even the top guilds aren't watching videos and/or discussing Sunwell boss strategies on IRC or Vent.
|
There is no study to prove it, but I'd wager many of the people who frequent those sites are folks like me who have no chance of ever seeing that content live. And we like to see whats next for the top raiders.
As for why raiders visit ...they are players like everyone else. Suspense is exciting, anticipation. I do not think they visit so they can have the strategy ready for live, though some certainly do. This was illustrated back in vanilla on numerous accounts, where at the top tier you didn't post strategies until the top guilds were done with the content. I site 4-horsemen as one such example. That sort of thing probably still exists at the very top, who knows. But let us not assume that everyone wants spoilers. They just like anticipating new content. There is a difference.