Originally Posted by Katria
I think going down to 10 man is far enough. With a 5 man dungeon, I think people will expect to be able to clear it on the first try...are there any 5 man dungeons that can't be finished with a few wipes? Timed events (like heroic SH) might take multiple attempts to complete successfully, but actually finishing the dungeon is doable in a single attempt, probably with a few wipes on the first go through.
|
To be honest I wish they would change 10 mans to 15 mans, and 25 mans to 30 mans. There just isn't enough space for a "proper" group composition in a 10 man. With a 15 man dungeon you'd have a tank/healer mixed group, melee DPS with maybe the offtank(s) group, and a 3rd group for casters/healer/shadow priest for mana returns.
Now that we're getting Death Knights, raid composition just got harder and we're not getting any extra space to help out.
Originally Posted by Katria
I wonder how much retuning would have to be done. For example, I know that kara can be cleared in 3-4 hours with a well-geared 5 man group. So it's just a matter of having the gear to do it...so in theory if you toned down the mobs hps/damage (to simulate the gear advantage those who 5 man it now have), you could make it a 5 man instance. I wonder how many 25 man fights could be toned down to 10 man just by reducing stats on mobs. Obviously more tuning would be needed for complex fights like Vash and Kael, but it seems like that would be enough for many bosses. Having never seen any 25 man content I couldn't say, but from reading about fights like Void Reaver or Gruul I'd say retuning many fights is really just a numbers game.
|
I will concede to you that Gruul and/or VR could easily be reduced to 10 or even a 5 man dungeon. Both of those fights are more or less tank and spank with the added bonus of "Get out of the cave-in/Get away from each other/Get away from the orbs/Stay in melee range of VR you idiot/etc". However, consider the case of High King Maulgar, which requires a mage tank for one add, multiple hunters/a single moonkin to tank another add, warlocks to chain enslave spawning felhounds, etc. You'd never fit the classes needed for that into a 10 man, much less a 5 man.
You can read up on the fight on WoWWiki, but I think you'd agree that it would be tough, if not impossible.
Originally Posted by Douglas
I know plenty of non-raiders who are angry at raiders solely because they get access to lore that's denied to non-raiders. There's at least a non-empty set of people who'd be quite delighted to get the lore, graphisisms, and cool emotes, and not much else.
I'm very much in favor of changes that open more of the lore up to a wider variety of people, if they can be done without too badly diluting other aspects of the game for other people. The whole "PvE seasons" concept seems at the very least like a neat thought experiment.
|
You know, that describes me exactly. I care nothing for loot, I raid because I love lore and I love being able to work with 9/24/39 other people to get Mr. Big Bad Boss Guy down.
I'm sure someone will flame me for this, but I once offered 1000g on my realm forums for a raiding guild to run me to Kel'thuzad so I could screenshot his dialogue. My old raiding guild had only started Naxx when BC came out, so I never got to see it, and I'm a bit unhappy since Kel is a big lore figure. Unfortunately, nobody wanted to go ;-(.
But Blizzard is working on this. I heard on an interview that they want to have everyone be able to "meet" Arthas, but only raiders would be able to fight him in WotLK. And it's probably really easy for Blizzard to do. Imagine rolling a Death Knight, spawning in the Scourge version of Elwynn Forest, you do a couple of simple quests like raising the dead, poisoning some poor farmers, etc. Then, you go meet Arthas, Arthas gives you a big speech, congratulates you on graduating "Death Knight Academy", then you get kidnapped by Alliance/Horde forces, taken back to their camps, turned back into your "Good" self, and you claim allegiance to the Alliance/Horde, promising to fight Arthas.
Originally Posted by Thanaomira
Insofar as lore, Illidan is as irrelevant to me as the forum raiders who bemoan that I can get T5/T6 gear. "You are not prepared!" "You don't deserve that!" That's nice. Who're you again, and why do I care about you?
This proposal is interesting in that it recycles a lot of stuff. I won't really care if the place has been solved at the 25-person level by all the 25-person raiders; I'll care much more that I get to go. Sure, it'd be nice to have a place that's our own, but if this is the compromise that's needed, I'll take it.
|
You know, I never understood people like you. You don't raid for loot, you don't raid for lore, you don't raid for the experience. Essentially what you're saying is "I just want new stuff! I don't care what it is!" And if that's true, why not go back to pre BC instances? You did clear AQ20 to Ossirian right? MC to Rag? ZG to Jindo and Hakkar? AQ40 to Cthun, plus the optional bosses?
Originally Posted by gnoop
Magister's Terrace seems to be at least some indication that Blizzard understands that casuals are bored with the game.
Unfortunately, this still doesn't get down to the point; that casuals are missing out on large chunks of lore because, for whatever reason, they're unable to get into the high-end content. Unfortunately, retuning is the most logical choice. Yes, it will involve extra effort. Are there really any good alternatives that allow casuals to go in? Suggesting bumping the limit isn't really going to solve the problem. If we're talking about casuals, pugs get included. The effort on some nights to get 5 people together is hard enough, let alone trying to get 40 people together to try and run Black Temple. Hell, I've watched people in /2 trying to find 2 healers for Kara. 60 minutes later, I'm watching the person still asking for 1 more healer. I couldn't imagine "LFM 4 healers, 3 tanks, 5 dps - BT".
|
I wouldn't say that Terrace is proof that casuals are getting bored. Terrace is just a way for even casual players to meet the fabled Kael'thas, since only raiders will meet him in TK. From the reports I've been reading, it doesn't seem that Terrace, either normal nor heroic, requires any more skill than regular 70 instances/heroics. Most people say Terrace is largely fun, especially the boss fights.