Elitist Jerks - View Single Post - A proposition for dungeon and raid progression

Ghando · 03/08/08, 4:42 PM

I think many people in this thread are over-estimating the breadth of difficulty and tuning that is available for smaller-scale content. It's great to say you want to see encounters re-tuned for smaller numbers of players because it's easier to organize and be successful with smaller groups, but I don't think it's enough to say "take everything and make it smaller!" Maybe it's been done well with Kael'thas in 2.4 (I haven't done MT on PTR, so I can't really comment) but you run into the fact that 5-mans just aren't hard enough to serve as more than a short step in progression. They work as a way to get rid of whatever RNG greens and quest rewards you're using when you hit the level cap. The Heroics worked as a way to bring your raiders up to speed for Karazhan, though as somebody else has pointed out that was largely a product of the badges and badges could have come from anywhere.

There have been some fun and difficult 5-man and 10-man encounters. But what makes you think there's enough room to grow that there could really be "progression." Douglas suggests a system wherein you needed to gear up in Ramparts to do Mana Tombs to do Arcatraz, and so on...but what suggests there could actually be such fine-tuned progression? I contend there's not enough room to grow; with only 5 player slots the devs are very limited in terms of which mechanics they can implement and expect you do deal with.

For example, a 5-man Felmyst would be difficult to implement because of the centrality of Mass Dispel to countering her Gas Nova. In a 25-man raid that's a good mechanic. But without drastically changing the numbers involved or the mechanic itself you cannot tune it for a 5-man group because you cannot assume a Priest; hell, you can't even assume a defensive dispeller. See where I'm going with this? 5-mans just aren't very negotiable and I think it's naive to state that Blizzard should be able to re-hash raid dungeons for drastically different audiences and have it just work.

This is to say nothing of the complaints there would be if you really had to "progress" through the instances the way you say you want to. If you want "gearing up" in Ramparts to be a prerequisite for Mana Tombs, then you're fine with running Ramparts a dozen+ times to get a few critical upgrades? You and the entire casual population of WoW will be happy to farm 5-man content the way raiders have to farm 25-man content long after the shine is off the apple? Really?

What it really comes down to is facing reality. Your $15/month in no way guarantees you really satisfying progression, it doesn't guarantee you full PvP epics, it doesn't guarantee you anything but unlimited access to the game and your characters. If you want satisfying progression in a PvE environment, then raid. If you want to run the occasional 5-man and dailies with your RL buddies, do that. If you want to have a Gladiator title and be an arena "star," then work towards that goal. Your subscription fee guarantees you all the in-game means to accomplish any goal you set for yourself in the game. If you can only commit a certain amount of time/effort to the game, then that's how you set your priorities and no reasonable person would tell you to do otherwise. But I don't think asking Blizzard to warp the MMO space/time continuum makes sense.

03/08/08, 4:42 PM	#88 (permalink)
Ghando Great Tiger Ghando Tauren Shaman <Elitist Jerks> Mal'Ganis	I think many people in this thread are over-estimating the breadth of difficulty and tuning that is available for smaller-scale content. It's great to say you want to see encounters re-tuned for smaller numbers of players because it's easier to organize and be successful with smaller groups, but I don't think it's enough to say "take everything and make it smaller!" Maybe it's been done well with Kael'thas in 2.4 (I haven't done MT on PTR, so I can't really comment) but you run into the fact that 5-mans just aren't hard enough to serve as more than a short step in progression. They work as a way to get rid of whatever RNG greens and quest rewards you're using when you hit the level cap. The Heroics worked as a way to bring your raiders up to speed for Karazhan, though as somebody else has pointed out that was largely a product of the badges and badges could have come from anywhere. There have been some fun and difficult 5-man and 10-man encounters. But what makes you think there's enough room to grow that there could really be "progression." Douglas suggests a system wherein you needed to gear up in Ramparts to do Mana Tombs to do Arcatraz, and so on...but what suggests there could actually be such fine-tuned progression? I contend there's not enough room to grow; with only 5 player slots the devs are very limited in terms of which mechanics they can implement and expect you do deal with. For example, a 5-man Felmyst would be difficult to implement because of the centrality of Mass Dispel to countering her Gas Nova. In a 25-man raid that's a good mechanic. But without drastically changing the numbers involved or the mechanic itself you cannot tune it for a 5-man group because you cannot assume a Priest; hell, you can't even assume a defensive dispeller. See where I'm going with this? 5-mans just aren't very negotiable and I think it's naive to state that Blizzard should be able to re-hash raid dungeons for drastically different audiences and have it just work. This is to say nothing of the complaints there would be if you really had to "progress" through the instances the way you say you want to. If you want "gearing up" in Ramparts to be a prerequisite for Mana Tombs, then you're fine with running Ramparts a dozen+ times to get a few critical upgrades? You and the entire casual population of WoW will be happy to farm 5-man content the way raiders have to farm 25-man content long after the shine is off the apple? Really? What it really comes down to is facing reality. Your $15/month in no way guarantees you really satisfying progression, it doesn't guarantee you full PvP epics, it doesn't guarantee you anything but unlimited access to the game and your characters. If you want satisfying progression in a PvE environment, then raid. If you want to run the occasional 5-man and dailies with your RL buddies, do that. If you want to have a Gladiator title and be an arena "star," then work towards that goal. Your subscription fee guarantees you all the in-game means to accomplish any goal you set for yourself in the game. If you can only commit a certain amount of time/effort to the game, then that's how you set your priorities and no reasonable person would tell you to do otherwise. But I don't think asking Blizzard to warp the MMO space/time continuum makes sense.