Originally Posted by Jaxtrasi
You never really answered the basic question. Sure, 25-man content should be restricted to those who can and will do what is necessary to do it. Why though, should specific named boss X be restricted to 25-man content?
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Lady Vashj being taken down by the same number of players as needed for Hydromancer Thespia? Somehow that isn't quite as epic and significantly diminishes any relative danger between the two and the degree of achievement for downing them.
On the other extreme of what you're proposing, there have been noted accounts of ultra-elite buffed-to-the-teeth players 3-manning Onyxia and 10-manning MC back when they were on-level. Wait to be +10 levels of the content and have green gear which surpasses the epics those guys packed, and they should be even easier to 5-man. Effectively removing the 25-man restriction over time. Instead of being a restriction, it becomes an option to bring up to 25 over-level toons to make the situation even easier.
Originally Posted by frber
Blizzard really needs to sort out the difficulty scaling from normal to heroic before they attempt that. if they make legendary similar to heroic with everything just hitting alot harder they may end up with them beeing a gear/skill check for tank and healer only while DPS is more or less pointless and certainly don't get any harder challenges.
With legendary you could very easily end up in a situation where all the DPS only wants to do legendary, because well they can do it just as well and likely no major difference compared to normal, but all the tanks and healers need to grind like crazy to meet the gear checks.
Though DPS upgrades beeing pointless in large parts of the game, and DPS having much lower gear and l2p checks compared to tanks/healers needs to be sorted regardless.
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As already mentioned, I feel Blizzard made a mistake in nerfing Heroics so badly. New tricks need NOT be restricted to bosses alone. DPS/CC should not be made ineffective. It should be made more challenging. Borrow from 25-mans, such as the dispelling packs to Kael.
Here, I'll throw in an example of potential boss changes using Murmur:
# Normal - Murmur's Touch places an explosive countdown on one target.
# Heroic - Murmur's Touch places an explosive countdown on one target. All players are pulled to the target.
# Legendary - Murmur's Touch places an explosive countdown on one target. All players are pulled to the target and everyone but the target is debuffed with a 50% slowing magic effect, dispellable.
# Valiant - Murmur's Touch places an explosive countdown on one target. All players are pulled to the target and everyone but the target is debuffed with a 50% slowing magic effect with a 3 second silence.
# Dauntless - Murmur's Touch effects everyone but the highest agro. All players are pulled to the highest agro.
If you want an elegant PvE scenario which emulates progressive arena gearing beyond badges, tiering heroics is that solution.
Originally Posted by Douglas
Not really.
1) Where's the actual content progression?
If Heroic Ramparts were accessible to folks in dungeon blues, but Heroic Slave Pens required people who had geared up in Heroic Ramparts first, and Heroic Mana Tombs was further along still, and there were quest chains or something that indicated the right order to you, that would be a lot better.
2) Where are the actual new experiences?
If we were still running strat/scholo et cetera today, but Blizzard had kept adding new Heroic/Uberheroic/WTFPWNheroic levels to it, with better and better gear, would people find that acceptable? Of course not! There needs to be a trickle of actual new stuff -- new to this group, at least. Recycling the content, or at least the lore behind the content, of the larger raid instances, scaling it down or rewriting it for 10-man and then 5-man teams, would be a way to achieve that.
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1) The cheap, but potentially lore-pleasing way Blizz could do this is to set up attunement chains of sorts. Gear requirements need not be standard armor/weapons, but could be quest-effect items necessary to control mechanics in progressive dungeons. Think getting a Tears of the Goddess type item from Sethekk in order to defeat Murmur. The downside is it would place restrictions on content access, which is possibly counter to the desire of the OP.
2) Certain bosses could be active only on harder modes. This is already in effect for Heroic Shattered. Include more challenging mechanics, borrowing from raid mobs could work to that end. Think giving the 5-packs in Shattered the shield toss and spinning sword skills from Bloodboil and Gorefiend trash. Sentinels in Arcatraz getting 1-shot the Robot's skills from Council trash. 5-manners get to experience 25-man mechanics, 25-mans stay 25-man. 5-mans still have to progress to harder modes to experience these mechanics. Win/win?
25-mans don't have to be demoted to 5-man status in order for 5-manners to experience the mechanics they contain. A sense of progress and increasing challenge/rewards can be applied to existing 5-mans without demoting 25-mans. And if you simply must access the 25-mans themselves with 5 players, keep waiting for the level cap increase.