Originally Posted by mofidik
Agree to disagree on mut rogue vs shs rogue I guess, it's only been a few times a rogue managed to mutilate me when I wasn't chasing something else, and when I was it's quite feasable to avoid some hits. I just can't see how
-being able to trinket KS without risking a blind on you getting your priest killed
-having more frontal avoidance
-having a frontal attack
-having two sets of CDs
-having a "guaranteed" undodg-/parryable KS
beats
-+20% incoming healing
-more chance to have more incoming healing for a short time
-no survability outside one evasion
-no frontal attack outside shiv (which costs more energy than the Shs's rogue one)
In a toe-to-toe situation. Both rogues have the same snares and ammount of snare breakers, how would a Shs rogue let the mutilate rogue get behind him? You might be an exeptionally talented dancer, but even if you are, your opponent clearly was not.
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-Smart Rogues don't trinket KS, doesn't matter what spec you play.
-More frontal avoidance? Negligible
-Non-positional, use of prep and ShS are the pluses, and that's exactly why the ShS Rogue has to aggressively attack the Mut Rogue to put him so far into the hole pressure-wise he can't recover because if you can't do that and your cooldowns are gone then it is over. And it is not hard at all to Mutilate at least once every 6 secs vs an aggressive Rogue. It is only advantageous to the Mut Rogue if you play super defensive because generally I'll wait out your CDs. I'm not sure why you end all your sentences thinking I'm fighting some scrub ShS Rogue who doesn't know how to "dance" when in reality I've probably fought in this particular matchup far more times than you have given the prevalence of ShS Rogues.
-20% incoming healing and 30% (50% for crip) poison resist is why a Mut Rogue can survive vs ShS damage in a sustained fight, given the same support. These are huge. Combine that with 10% more poison application, and those wounds go up a lot faster between cloaks (and it's very noticable). A lot of your "negatives" for a Mut Rogue are negligible anyway. Cost on Shiv? We can just switch offhands.
Originally Posted by mofidik
The point I was making with your warrior/druid example is that if the team is any good and doesn't rush in like maniacs, they'd have little trouble recovering from your "initial burst" (how the hell would you surive a double DPS rogue/caster if your scenario actually works frequently?), followed by a turtle game played the way I discribed above (I thought I refered to it already, it also clearly states I'm aware of the potentional power of mutilate spec), bar, like I mentioned, the off chance a none-perception none-heightened sense rogue finds the druid in stealth or manages to catch him in caster just after.
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I can only assume you don't use the strategy and are theorycrafting. Let me explain. The Druid has to pop because the Priest can just continually DOT the War and run away, and the Priest can solo the Warrior if he has no Druid support (very slowly anyway). They don't "rush in like madmen," the Warrior is forced to engage the Priest because of the DoTs. All the while I wait for the Druid to pop and if I open on him trust me, they cannot recover unless we royally F up somewhere. It isn't a guaranteed victory I'm going to beat War/Druid every game (largely depends on the opener), but Mut Rogue/Disc Priest > ShS Rogue/Disc Priest vs War/Druid. Ask any ->top<- team from either side. It is, in fact, one of the main reasons to go Mut because of the popularity of War/Druid. I question what kind of War/Druid teams you are facing considering you think all Mut has to do is get on the Warrior and make him go sword and board. Druids have a thing called Cyclone, and Feral Charge, and Bash, and all that adds up to your Priest eating dirt.
As for Rogue/Caster the strategy isn't the same and I never said it was. I use that strategy strictly for Druids because they are a very unique healer. Vs Rogue Caster both me and the Priest attempt to get into combat right away with the caster to prevent the sap. But first of all let me say Rogue + Caster isn't a popular set-up outside of Rogue/Mage, where in that case yes ShS has a distinct advantage over Mut in Rogue/Priest. It's the tradeoff you get for going Mut, you give up some advantage here for an overall advantage vs War/Healer teams (which are very popular). I can't recall any trouble vs any other kind of Rogue/Caster or Rogue/Healer comp, however like I said they are rare.
Originally Posted by mofidik
This, however, didn't really change much to the mut vs Shs discussion seeing as we have largely the same view, in which sellect cases either spec comes on top seems a rather trivial thing to have a sandbox domination war about. 
I think mutilate is an amazingly fun spec to play, aswel as challanging because a tough opponent will make you work hard for those mutilates. But I still think two "reliable" target switches / game tops (They are CCing the rogue right.) makes it quite abit more simple than Shs. I don't want to downtalk it as an easy spec, just the fact that you've never mastered Shs if you don't know exactly what happens around you largely doesn't apply to mutilate made me dub it a "simple spec", sorry if that short turn came across offensively. |
Sure you can claim I haven't "mastered" ShS, and I can claim the same for you with Mut (you almost admit as much from what you've said about it, most of it seemingly theorycraft). It doesn't get us anywhere, does it? ShS is largely managing cooldowns and shutting down their primary target, Mut is more about coordinating the burst (and yes, you have to be aware of 'what is happening around me'). If believing ShS is somehow a more skilled build to play makes you feel better about playing it good for you, but it has no effect on the viability of either build in arenas.