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Alvira · 05/15/08, 3:47 AM

Introduction
This is a thread that hopes to have serious discussions about raiding as arcane post patch 2.4.

For starters, we aren’t here to argue about whether arcane, frost or fire is better or whether you are top in damage meters in your raid. Discussion on this thread should be limited primarily to raiding as arcane. About how best to raid as arcane, how to gear up for arcane, and any game or item mechanics changes that affect arcane raiding.

Part 1: How to play Arcane post 2.4

Patch 2.4 had some subtle but key effects on arcane raiding.

1) The mana regen from spirit goes up as your int goes up. So, now, the higher your int, the more mana regen you have, and as we all know, mana = damage for arcane mages. This has been a very key change that has enabled arcane mages to spam arcane blast for the majority of their fights. (exact formula per Tinybronco: "5 * 0.0093271 * Spirit * Square_root ( Intellect ) is the formula relating mp5 with int/spirit")

2) Haste can now bring your global cooldown below 1.5 seconds. The lowest is 1 second. Another key change given how important an impact bloodlust and heroism have on end game raiding. Plus, this enables arcane mages to add some haste to their gear without being overly penalized for it. Haste is still not the best stat for arcane mages, more discussion would be good. But at least it is not an entirely wasted stat as it was before this change.

Arcane raiding post 2.4 is made up of just one thing. Spam arcane blast as much as you can for as long as you can. Everything else you do is to support that. The theoretical perfect arcane raid sequence (putting aside cooldown abilities for now, and bloodlust), is one where the arcane mage managed to cast 1.5 second arcane blasts 100% of the time for the entire raid fight. Where this is not possible, then everything else that is being done when raiding as arcane is to get as close to this “nirvana” as possible. Hence, the importance of managing your mana, gearing properly, whether to gem for int, and when to use Arcane power.

The core of arcane raiding now, is to spam 1.5 second arcane blasts as much as feasibly possible. If you have received 2 druid innervates that enable you to do it, then all the power to you. Even without such raid support, the int/spirit change that was mentioned has been such that arcane mages can now still spam arcane blast most of the time, for the majority of raid boss fights.

So, the three key ingredients to be able to raid successfully as arcane.
1) Have two piece T5 (for the boost in damage to your arcane blast)
2) Have good mana support (either SP or shammy in group, gem, pot, etc)
3) The willingness to push AB spam to the max. Start off with pushing AB until you are really and truly close to dry. Then work backwards as you gain experience about the true length of the raid boss fight.

Assumptions: This assumes at least T5 level of gear. Given the ease of getting T5/T6 equivalent gear through ZA, badge and T5/T6 dungeons. Its a reasonable assumption. This kind of AB spam style arcane raiding is not being suggested for people with T4 or worse gear just starting to raid. (unless your group support is that good). And people with spellfire, spellstrike in their setup also need to be careful. The stats on these are so low it is a lot more challenging to keep up AB spam for any length of time if you are wearing them.

This is all only the basic core concepts of arcane raiding. It doesn’t address more advanced arcane raiding, or the many issues which there is no standardized agree “best” way of doing to.

Part 2: Advanced Arcane Raiding concepts

Part 2A: Why and what type of filler spells

More advanced portion. (some open to debate).

What to use as filler spells when you can’t spam AB 100% of the fight. Depending on the length of the boss fight, this part could be anything from 0% to 30% of your total damage. Though if its 30% of your total damage, it would have to be a really really long fight. The objective of filler spell, is that when you are casting this spell or spells, you are still regenerating mana (due to the awesome abilities of arcane mages to regen mana with proper raid support). But at the same time, you are also still doing a decent level of damage.

Have no illusions, any amount of time casting filler spells is time where you are doing below average DPS. Because it is time you are not spamming AB. And no amount of complex or simple spell sequence of filler spells will match up to AB spam.

Part 2B: Introducing the three arcane variant specs

This is where the three arcane specs come in. Often, the spec of choice will influence the filler spells and filler spell sequence used. There could be more, but I will stick to the three I know.

Spec 1 – Arcane/fire
At least 40 points in arcane, don’t take any talents that improve AM, take 3 points in elemental precision, and the rest into fire. (get talents like improved fireball, ignite, pyroblast, burning soul, etc).

This arcane spec is still about spamming arcane. For filler spells, it can cast fireball, cast scorch, and it can use AP, pom pyroblast. The spec is unlikely to use AM as a filler because spamming fireballs as almost as good, and better damage. Your fireball hits are only marginally below a full fledge fire mage, and your crits actually hit as hard as his because you have spellpower boosting them. You will unlikely to go out of mana spamming fireballs thus making it a good filler spell, and if you want to regen even more mana, then just spam scorch instead.

Spec 2 – Arcane/frost
40 points in arcane. don’t take any talents that improve AM, take 21 points in frost. Improve frostbolt as much as you can. Take icy veins and cold snap. This spec is the theoretically highest DPS arcane spec.

To clarify. In a situation where arcane blast is 90 to 100% of your damage, the damage difference between any arcane spec variation is minor. What pushes this spec to highest max DPS theoretical arcane spec is due to two key things.

A talented frostbolt cast by such a spec hits extremely hard, and crits even harder. While casting it is incredibly mana efficient. Plus, the kicker – the ability to cast icy veins, cold snap, and then do it again. Frostbolts are the main filler spell for this arcane spec.

Spec 3 – Deep deep arcane
More than 45 points into arcane, take all talents that improve AM, have only 11 points thereabouts remaining placed into either frost, or fire.

This spec uses arcane missiles as part of its filler spells. Hence, it is talented for it. It could be a variety of sequence of spells, but there would be an AM cast somewhere in it. Take note, if you can spam AB 100%, you still do. AM and AM sequences come in only in situations when you can’t spam AB 100% of the time.

Some worth while debating issues on filler spell sequences.

Part 2C: Issues and discussions on filler spell sequences for each Arcane Variant

Arcane fire – is fireball spam the best way to go? Or some spell sequence like 3xAB, 2xFB, scorch. Etc etc. Now, latency comes into play as well. Take me, I play from Asia, so it is impossible for me to squeeze in a scorch at the end. The best I can do, is 3xAB, 2x FB. And in the first place, it might be easier to just fireball spam until you feel ready to do back to AB spam. Personally, I am not convinced the complexities of have a 3xAB spell sequence is worth it when the alternative or fireball spam as a filler is quite competitive. But le the debates roll, I am all for it.

Arcane frost – Is it even worth trying some 3xAb, 3x frostbolt kind of sequence, as compared to just frost bolting until you are ready to go back to AB spam again. Again, this is debatable. Tinybronco also suggested using AB, frostbolt frostbolt as a spell sequence for the filler sequence.

Full arcane – how to weave in AM. Keep on going AB, AM, AB , AM so that you will benefit max from a clearcast? Again, some complex ABx3, AM, scorch sequence? Again debatable. So let the discussions flow!

I would stress again though. The whole idea of filler spell sequences is up for debate in itself. Some people argue that you shouldn’t have a “low mana” time where you do a mana efficient spell sequence. They say. Keep the AB debuff up at max, but weave in the required number of fillers spells such that you run to zero mana at the end of the fight. This is extremely challenging, but possible if you are so used to the fight length.

Example – say you know that for this boss fight X, you will end up having to cast exactly 10 frostbolts as filler, and the rest of the time, its all AB. Instead of waiting until Time 3.20 into the fight where you are low and spamming that 10 frostbolts. You “weave” it into the whole fight. So, every now and then, while you are spamming AB, you throw in one single frostbolt, then go back to spamming AB. This requires very high degree of knowledge of exactly how many filler frostbolts you need to cast. Hence, in this fight, say you will end up spamming 50 ABs. instead of going spam 40 AB, spam 10 fostbolt, then spam the last 10 AB. You will go 5 AB, 1 frostbolt, 5 AB, 1 frostbolt until the end of the fight.

Both ways are up for debate.

Part 2D: About about cooldowns and what to cast during bloodlust and AP?

All this goes back to arcane wanting to spam AB the whole fight. While arcane power is extremely good, it sucks up even more mana if you are spamming ABs during AP. And throw in bloodlust, and the mana consumption goes up even more.

The first AP is usually not an issue. This usually happens before you need to evocate, so you will have no problems timing it with that first bloodlust and spamming AB. I believe the main issue comes if the fight is long enough for the AP cooldown to be up, and for a second AP to come in. Similarly, when the bloodlust cooldown is up, and cast a second time.

Most arcane mages will have enough mana for that first AP powered AB spam. It’s the second that is the key issue here. If you have the gear, and mana support to be able to AP, AB through the second bloodlust. Then all the more power to you. But what if that would prove difficult? Then, the debate is whether it is better served casting frostbolts, or fireballs, etc during the AP, bloodlust period because you can’t afford the mana to AB spam. Some would even argue that it is so important to time this right, that you have to lapse into a low mana spell sequence BEFORE you reach this stage, intentionally saving up the mana for this part. Again, this is subject to debate and discussion. Given the danger of over compensating and ending up with excess mana. I am personally the believer that if you know you can’t AP,AB spam the second bloodlust without having to go to extreme lengths before that, then go with a filler spell sequence spam instead. Or possibly, forgo the second arcane power instead. It’s a whole discussion in itself, and I am just starting it off.

Part 2E:Mana management and use of consumables.

Again there may be further issues to discuss here. Arcane raiding is simple in concept now, but not so simple when you want to push max dps.

Mana management. On the face of it, its eating gems and pots as soon as possible, once the cooldown is up, then eating them again. If its a short fight, where you can spam AB 100% without evoc, then great. If not, evoc usually comes after the first AP fueled AB spammage.

Also, the importance of getting SP, or a shammy, or both into your group, and the debate on whether druid innervates are justified being cast on arcane mages. And Judgements kept up. (some of this may be out of your control).

Even filler spells and spell sequence I brought up previously is due to the complexities of mana management. Because to an arcane mage, he can always do with more mana.

And sometimes, mana regen can be taken to extremes. For example, better to flask for distilled wisdom than to flask for blinding light? Is that extra more AB you can do going to be worth the damage lost? Better to go draenic wisdom and adepts elixir/ elixir of mastery instead? The average length of the boss fights you are facing is key here, and the raid support and your own gear all comes into it as well.

On one extreme, if an arcane mage has 5 druids lining up to innervate him, and he is in an SP, shammy group to boot. He might as well cast molten armour, eat destruction pots and still spam AB the whole fight. Then just flask for damage, gear for damage.

On the other extreme – zero raid support, no SP, no shammy. Then definitely, mage armour, and perhaps he will need to really gear for int/spirit and flask for mana. He may even have to enchant for int. (Maybe he should just go back to fire if its going to be so rough.).

Most people fall in between, and most raid fights come in between. Some boss fights are longer, some are shorter. But your flask lasts 2 hours and your elixir lasts 1 hour. So, unless you are so rich, you flask for damage for that 2 min boss fight, then flask/exlir for mana 30 min later for that 8 min fight. Most people will have to choose what they can that will give them the most bang for buck though the whole raid.

Theorycraft right now is saying best if use elixirs. Personally I try and use those more. But for the harder fights where possibility of wipeing is there. I use flask of blinding light or supreme power because my guild is mainly farming MH,BT. So, the raid fights are short.

Part 2F: Gearing.

Arcane mages favour T5/T6 gear because they have int and spirit in addition to the damage stats. To an arcane mage, having spirit and lots of int on their gear is not a bad thing. They love it. Damage is still important, but stats like Int are important too and stats like spirit are good to have.

Rawr is a great application to help you choose your gear. I use it, every arcane mage should, its that good. But I have to raise a point here also. Rawr is theorycraft. The assumptions are that the raid boss fight is 5 minutes standard. Most MH,BT fights are nowhere near that long. When you tweak the length of the boss fights, you will get different results.

Rawr favours +int gems for arcane mages. Its very counter intuitive. And a lot of arcane mages balk at the idea of really re-gemming their entire suit for +int. I myself only have 3 +int gems in my gem slots, and the rest of my gem slots are geared for damage. I feel that ideally, you have substitute gear options. So, you will have a full out +dmg gemmed suit of gear that you will use for all short fights. And you will switch out a few selected slots with +int gems for the few long fights you might have to face.

Kavan might disagree. Maybe it is better to still gem for full int, and then use destruction pots and don’t cast evocate if you have so much mana from your gear. However, this is a really open topic and it goes against a lot of conventional gearing wisdom. Personally, I have yet to see many even true arcane mages gem themselves fully with +int.

This idea of gemming for int is still one that I believe is not so mainstream despite what the theorycraft supporting it. And in the end, it may be due more to practicality than just pushing DPS. Most mages balk at making their gear so one sided its only suitable for raiding and sub par for everything else.

Part 2G: Haste Rating. How important is haste to Arcane?

Haste rating in gear. Another big topic in itself. We at least benefit from haste now. Hence, we benefit from bloodlust and icy veins. However, its not the best stat for arcane mages in general. After pages of discussion, here's what came out with regards to haste.

Due to the many variables, its too difficult to have an accepted ranking of the best stats for arcane mages. But a generic ranking might be as follows (quote Zinaida):

"1) +hit up to 6% (reach cap)
2) +int or +dmg (Rawr usually shows int coming out on top)
3) Haste or crit or spirit in the third tier (depending on gear/raid setup)."

Ultimately, there may be lots of situations where this doesn't apply. So, I quote Wizeowl "The best advice about haste is to work it out for yourself, depending on your gear and the fight you are doing". So, use Rawr to see how valuable the various stats are based on the parameters you input in, and see how good each piece of gear is relative to each other for upgrades.

For example. When Roywyn plugs in two sets of numbers, one for BT gear, one for sunwell gear, the stats relative value to each other changes based on Rawr.

Quote Roywyn

"Black Temple/Hyjal gear (or: gear with little haste)
1) +12 dmg ~ 10.6 DPS
2) +10 int ~ 10.3 DPS
3) +10 haste ~ 8.4 DPS
4) +10 crit ~ 6.9 DPS
5) +10 spirit ~ 6.5 DPS
6) +4 mp5 ~ 2.0 DP

Sunwell gear (or: gear with a lot of haste)
1) +12 dmg ~ 11.9 DPS
2) +10 int ~ 10.4 DPS
3) +10 haste ~ 9.8 DPS
4) +10 crit ~ 8.8 DPS
5) +10 spirit ~ 6.5 DPS
6) +4 mp5 ~ 2.0 DP"

So, things can change quite dramatically depending on your gear, raid setup, and even the raid boss fight itself. So, use Rawr and find out yourself exactly how valuable the various stats are to you. The above are all very generic and may not apply at all to your individual situation! You can find lots of discussion specifically on haste on page 11 to 13 of this thread.

Part 2H:How to make up for some of arcane’s disadvantages. Spell pushback.

Some people spec arcane frost and just use icy as much as they can, for those few fights that have tons of spell pushback.

My method, I am arcane fire. And I take burning soul. And for that one or two boss fights with that much spell pushback. I just spam fireball instead of AB and play like a fire mage. My rationale – why fight against it when the cards are stacked so heavily against you.

Third method – radical worth discussing. Have a fully tweaked out haste set. Spec into deep deep arcane. Wear the BT mage trinket, wear lightning capacitor and spam AM. You have 100% pushback immunity compared to even fire’s 70%. Maybe, it will be just as competitive.

This is only specifically for those very few boss fights where spell pushback is so significant it matters.

Part 2I: Trinket discussion.

Another big topic by itself. I am currently using serpant coil braid and Sorceror's Alchemist Stone. Others may have their own preference on which are the best trinkets an arcane raiding mage should be using. But mine are these two. I am not sure about the way Rawr ranks trinkets, and whether the intangiblee benefits of alchemist stone and serpant coil braid on mana are factored into the value of such trinkets. But certainly, the extra mana gain is extremely valuable because they allow that much more AB spam. And the longer the fight, which allows for more potting and eating of gem, then the greater the benefit. Certainly worth further discussion.

Part 2J: resources

I personally love using RawrRawr - Release: Rawr b14.1. Its easy to use and allows you to swap gear and see the immediate results. Kavan knows exactly how Rawr works.

Another resource is magegraf by Vontre. It shows your spell sequences and damage in graphical form.

A quick ballpark easy to use way to judge your DPS is to have a damage meter and look at how much your average arcane blast hits for in raids. Let's say it averages 2400 per arcane blast normal hit. This means that it will crit for 4200 (2400 x 1.75). Then look at your crit rate. Let's say its 30%.

This means that on average, your arcane blast spam will give you [30% x 4200 + 70% x 2400] / 1.5 = 2940 / 1.5 = 1960 DPS.

Arcane power, trinkets, bloodlust, can push you above this figure, but on the flip side, if you can't cast AB 100% of the time, if you have to move and bave to reapply the arcane debuff, etc etc, can all cause it to be lower than this number. And of course, Rawr is much better and much more precise. This is just a quick and easy way to get an average ballpark DPS figure you can aim for if you achieve something close to 100% AB spam.

Conclusion

Wow, this has been a long post. Thanks for reading so far. I hope this helps at least set the right track on further in depth discussions about arcane raiding and arcane gearing in this thread.

Let’s keep this a productive thread aimed at educating all mages on arcane raiding, and pushing arcane DPS ever further and further to its theoretical best. So, feel free to contribute any of your comments, disagree with mine, bring forth your theories. But most importantly, keep the topic of discussion on arcane.

(Fire and frost spec discussions or comparision are not entertained and welcome here). We are die hard arcanists! It is a choice we made, simple as that. So let’s keep to the subject and discuss arcane raiding!

Thanks! ^_^

Alvira

05/15/08, 3:47 AM	#1 (permalink)
Alvira Don Flamenco Alvira Human Mage <Merveilles> Dragonblight	[Mage] Raiding as Arcane mage post 2.4 Introduction This is a thread that hopes to have serious discussions about raiding as arcane post patch 2.4. For starters, we aren’t here to argue about whether arcane, frost or fire is better or whether you are top in damage meters in your raid. Discussion on this thread should be limited primarily to raiding as arcane. About how best to raid as arcane, how to gear up for arcane, and any game or item mechanics changes that affect arcane raiding. Part 1: How to play Arcane post 2.4 Patch 2.4 had some subtle but key effects on arcane raiding. 1) The mana regen from spirit goes up as your int goes up. So, now, the higher your int, the more mana regen you have, and as we all know, mana = damage for arcane mages. This has been a very key change that has enabled arcane mages to spam arcane blast for the majority of their fights. (exact formula per Tinybronco: "5 * 0.0093271 * Spirit * Square_root ( Intellect ) is the formula relating mp5 with int/spirit") 2) Haste can now bring your global cooldown below 1.5 seconds. The lowest is 1 second. Another key change given how important an impact bloodlust and heroism have on end game raiding. Plus, this enables arcane mages to add some haste to their gear without being overly penalized for it. Haste is still not the best stat for arcane mages, more discussion would be good. But at least it is not an entirely wasted stat as it was before this change. Arcane raiding post 2.4 is made up of just one thing. Spam arcane blast as much as you can for as long as you can. Everything else you do is to support that. The theoretical perfect arcane raid sequence (putting aside cooldown abilities for now, and bloodlust), is one where the arcane mage managed to cast 1.5 second arcane blasts 100% of the time for the entire raid fight. Where this is not possible, then everything else that is being done when raiding as arcane is to get as close to this “nirvana” as possible. Hence, the importance of managing your mana, gearing properly, whether to gem for int, and when to use Arcane power. The core of arcane raiding now, is to spam 1.5 second arcane blasts as much as feasibly possible. If you have received 2 druid innervates that enable you to do it, then all the power to you. Even without such raid support, the int/spirit change that was mentioned has been such that arcane mages can now still spam arcane blast most of the time, for the majority of raid boss fights. So, the three key ingredients to be able to raid successfully as arcane. 1) Have two piece T5 (for the boost in damage to your arcane blast) 2) Have good mana support (either SP or shammy in group, gem, pot, etc) 3) The willingness to push AB spam to the max. Start off with pushing AB until you are really and truly close to dry. Then work backwards as you gain experience about the true length of the raid boss fight. Assumptions: This assumes at least T5 level of gear. Given the ease of getting T5/T6 equivalent gear through ZA, badge and T5/T6 dungeons. Its a reasonable assumption. This kind of AB spam style arcane raiding is not being suggested for people with T4 or worse gear just starting to raid. (unless your group support is that good). And people with spellfire, spellstrike in their setup also need to be careful. The stats on these are so low it is a lot more challenging to keep up AB spam for any length of time if you are wearing them. This is all only the basic core concepts of arcane raiding. It doesn’t address more advanced arcane raiding, or the many issues which there is no standardized agree “best” way of doing to. Part 2: Advanced Arcane Raiding concepts Part 2A: Why and what type of filler spells More advanced portion. (some open to debate). What to use as filler spells when you can’t spam AB 100% of the fight. Depending on the length of the boss fight, this part could be anything from 0% to 30% of your total damage. Though if its 30% of your total damage, it would have to be a really really long fight. The objective of filler spell, is that when you are casting this spell or spells, you are still regenerating mana (due to the awesome abilities of arcane mages to regen mana with proper raid support). But at the same time, you are also still doing a decent level of damage. Have no illusions, any amount of time casting filler spells is time where you are doing below average DPS. Because it is time you are not spamming AB. And no amount of complex or simple spell sequence of filler spells will match up to AB spam. Part 2B: Introducing the three arcane variant specs This is where the three arcane specs come in. Often, the spec of choice will influence the filler spells and filler spell sequence used. There could be more, but I will stick to the three I know. Spec 1 – Arcane/fire At least 40 points in arcane, don’t take any talents that improve AM, take 3 points in elemental precision, and the rest into fire. (get talents like improved fireball, ignite, pyroblast, burning soul, etc). This arcane spec is still about spamming arcane. For filler spells, it can cast fireball, cast scorch, and it can use AP, pom pyroblast. The spec is unlikely to use AM as a filler because spamming fireballs as almost as good, and better damage. Your fireball hits are only marginally below a full fledge fire mage, and your crits actually hit as hard as his because you have spellpower boosting them. You will unlikely to go out of mana spamming fireballs thus making it a good filler spell, and if you want to regen even more mana, then just spam scorch instead. Spec 2 – Arcane/frost 40 points in arcane. don’t take any talents that improve AM, take 21 points in frost. Improve frostbolt as much as you can. Take icy veins and cold snap. This spec is the theoretically highest DPS arcane spec. To clarify. In a situation where arcane blast is 90 to 100% of your damage, the damage difference between any arcane spec variation is minor. What pushes this spec to highest max DPS theoretical arcane spec is due to two key things. A talented frostbolt cast by such a spec hits extremely hard, and crits even harder. While casting it is incredibly mana efficient. Plus, the kicker – the ability to cast icy veins, cold snap, and then do it again. Frostbolts are the main filler spell for this arcane spec. Spec 3 – Deep deep arcane More than 45 points into arcane, take all talents that improve AM, have only 11 points thereabouts remaining placed into either frost, or fire. This spec uses arcane missiles as part of its filler spells. Hence, it is talented for it. It could be a variety of sequence of spells, but there would be an AM cast somewhere in it. Take note, if you can spam AB 100%, you still do. AM and AM sequences come in only in situations when you can’t spam AB 100% of the time. Some worth while debating issues on filler spell sequences. Part 2C: Issues and discussions on filler spell sequences for each Arcane Variant Arcane fire – is fireball spam the best way to go? Or some spell sequence like 3xAB, 2xFB, scorch. Etc etc. Now, latency comes into play as well. Take me, I play from Asia, so it is impossible for me to squeeze in a scorch at the end. The best I can do, is 3xAB, 2x FB. And in the first place, it might be easier to just fireball spam until you feel ready to do back to AB spam. Personally, I am not convinced the complexities of have a 3xAB spell sequence is worth it when the alternative or fireball spam as a filler is quite competitive. But le the debates roll, I am all for it. Arcane frost – Is it even worth trying some 3xAb, 3x frostbolt kind of sequence, as compared to just frost bolting until you are ready to go back to AB spam again. Again, this is debatable. Tinybronco also suggested using AB, frostbolt frostbolt as a spell sequence for the filler sequence. Full arcane – how to weave in AM. Keep on going AB, AM, AB , AM so that you will benefit max from a clearcast? Again, some complex ABx3, AM, scorch sequence? Again debatable. So let the discussions flow! I would stress again though. The whole idea of filler spell sequences is up for debate in itself. Some people argue that you shouldn’t have a “low mana” time where you do a mana efficient spell sequence. They say. Keep the AB debuff up at max, but weave in the required number of fillers spells such that you run to zero mana at the end of the fight. This is extremely challenging, but possible if you are so used to the fight length. Example – say you know that for this boss fight X, you will end up having to cast exactly 10 frostbolts as filler, and the rest of the time, its all AB. Instead of waiting until Time 3.20 into the fight where you are low and spamming that 10 frostbolts. You “weave” it into the whole fight. So, every now and then, while you are spamming AB, you throw in one single frostbolt, then go back to spamming AB. This requires very high degree of knowledge of exactly how many filler frostbolts you need to cast. Hence, in this fight, say you will end up spamming 50 ABs. instead of going spam 40 AB, spam 10 fostbolt, then spam the last 10 AB. You will go 5 AB, 1 frostbolt, 5 AB, 1 frostbolt until the end of the fight. Both ways are up for debate. Part 2D: About about cooldowns and what to cast during bloodlust and AP? All this goes back to arcane wanting to spam AB the whole fight. While arcane power is extremely good, it sucks up even more mana if you are spamming ABs during AP. And throw in bloodlust, and the mana consumption goes up even more. The first AP is usually not an issue. This usually happens before you need to evocate, so you will have no problems timing it with that first bloodlust and spamming AB. I believe the main issue comes if the fight is long enough for the AP cooldown to be up, and for a second AP to come in. Similarly, when the bloodlust cooldown is up, and cast a second time. Most arcane mages will have enough mana for that first AP powered AB spam. It’s the second that is the key issue here. If you have the gear, and mana support to be able to AP, AB through the second bloodlust. Then all the more power to you. But what if that would prove difficult? Then, the debate is whether it is better served casting frostbolts, or fireballs, etc during the AP, bloodlust period because you can’t afford the mana to AB spam. Some would even argue that it is so important to time this right, that you have to lapse into a low mana spell sequence BEFORE you reach this stage, intentionally saving up the mana for this part. Again, this is subject to debate and discussion. Given the danger of over compensating and ending up with excess mana. I am personally the believer that if you know you can’t AP,AB spam the second bloodlust without having to go to extreme lengths before that, then go with a filler spell sequence spam instead. Or possibly, forgo the second arcane power instead. It’s a whole discussion in itself, and I am just starting it off. Part 2E:Mana management and use of consumables. Again there may be further issues to discuss here. Arcane raiding is simple in concept now, but not so simple when you want to push max dps. Mana management. On the face of it, its eating gems and pots as soon as possible, once the cooldown is up, then eating them again. If its a short fight, where you can spam AB 100% without evoc, then great. If not, evoc usually comes after the first AP fueled AB spammage. Also, the importance of getting SP, or a shammy, or both into your group, and the debate on whether druid innervates are justified being cast on arcane mages. And Judgements kept up. (some of this may be out of your control). Even filler spells and spell sequence I brought up previously is due to the complexities of mana management. Because to an arcane mage, he can always do with more mana. And sometimes, mana regen can be taken to extremes. For example, better to flask for distilled wisdom than to flask for blinding light? Is that extra more AB you can do going to be worth the damage lost? Better to go draenic wisdom and adepts elixir/ elixir of mastery instead? The average length of the boss fights you are facing is key here, and the raid support and your own gear all comes into it as well. On one extreme, if an arcane mage has 5 druids lining up to innervate him, and he is in an SP, shammy group to boot. He might as well cast molten armour, eat destruction pots and still spam AB the whole fight. Then just flask for damage, gear for damage. On the other extreme – zero raid support, no SP, no shammy. Then definitely, mage armour, and perhaps he will need to really gear for int/spirit and flask for mana. He may even have to enchant for int. (Maybe he should just go back to fire if its going to be so rough.). Most people fall in between, and most raid fights come in between. Some boss fights are longer, some are shorter. But your flask lasts 2 hours and your elixir lasts 1 hour. So, unless you are so rich, you flask for damage for that 2 min boss fight, then flask/exlir for mana 30 min later for that 8 min fight. Most people will have to choose what they can that will give them the most bang for buck though the whole raid. Theorycraft right now is saying best if use elixirs. Personally I try and use those more. But for the harder fights where possibility of wipeing is there. I use flask of blinding light or supreme power because my guild is mainly farming MH,BT. So, the raid fights are short. Part 2F: Gearing. Arcane mages favour T5/T6 gear because they have int and spirit in addition to the damage stats. To an arcane mage, having spirit and lots of int on their gear is not a bad thing. They love it. Damage is still important, but stats like Int are important too and stats like spirit are good to have. Rawr is a great application to help you choose your gear. I use it, every arcane mage should, its that good. But I have to raise a point here also. Rawr is theorycraft. The assumptions are that the raid boss fight is 5 minutes standard. Most MH,BT fights are nowhere near that long. When you tweak the length of the boss fights, you will get different results. Rawr favours +int gems for arcane mages. Its very counter intuitive. And a lot of arcane mages balk at the idea of really re-gemming their entire suit for +int. I myself only have 3 +int gems in my gem slots, and the rest of my gem slots are geared for damage. I feel that ideally, you have substitute gear options. So, you will have a full out +dmg gemmed suit of gear that you will use for all short fights. And you will switch out a few selected slots with +int gems for the few long fights you might have to face. Kavan might disagree. Maybe it is better to still gem for full int, and then use destruction pots and don’t cast evocate if you have so much mana from your gear. However, this is a really open topic and it goes against a lot of conventional gearing wisdom. Personally, I have yet to see many even true arcane mages gem themselves fully with +int. This idea of gemming for int is still one that I believe is not so mainstream despite what the theorycraft supporting it. And in the end, it may be due more to practicality than just pushing DPS. Most mages balk at making their gear so one sided its only suitable for raiding and sub par for everything else. Part 2G: Haste Rating. How important is haste to Arcane? Haste rating in gear. Another big topic in itself. We at least benefit from haste now. Hence, we benefit from bloodlust and icy veins. However, its not the best stat for arcane mages in general. After pages of discussion, here's what came out with regards to haste. Due to the many variables, its too difficult to have an accepted ranking of the best stats for arcane mages. But a generic ranking might be as follows (quote Zinaida): "1) +hit up to 6% (reach cap) 2) +int or +dmg (Rawr usually shows int coming out on top) 3) Haste or crit or spirit in the third tier (depending on gear/raid setup)." Ultimately, there may be lots of situations where this doesn't apply. So, I quote Wizeowl "The best advice about haste is to work it out for yourself, depending on your gear and the fight you are doing". So, use Rawr to see how valuable the various stats are based on the parameters you input in, and see how good each piece of gear is relative to each other for upgrades. For example. When Roywyn plugs in two sets of numbers, one for BT gear, one for sunwell gear, the stats relative value to each other changes based on Rawr. Quote Roywyn "Black Temple/Hyjal gear (or: gear with little haste) 1) +12 dmg ~ 10.6 DPS 2) +10 int ~ 10.3 DPS 3) +10 haste ~ 8.4 DPS 4) +10 crit ~ 6.9 DPS 5) +10 spirit ~ 6.5 DPS 6) +4 mp5 ~ 2.0 DP Sunwell gear (or: gear with a lot of haste) 1) +12 dmg ~ 11.9 DPS 2) +10 int ~ 10.4 DPS 3) +10 haste ~ 9.8 DPS 4) +10 crit ~ 8.8 DPS 5) +10 spirit ~ 6.5 DPS 6) +4 mp5 ~ 2.0 DP" So, things can change quite dramatically depending on your gear, raid setup, and even the raid boss fight itself. So, use Rawr and find out yourself exactly how valuable the various stats are to you. The above are all very generic and may not apply at all to your individual situation! You can find lots of discussion specifically on haste on page 11 to 13 of this thread. Part 2H:How to make up for some of arcane’s disadvantages. Spell pushback. Some people spec arcane frost and just use icy as much as they can, for those few fights that have tons of spell pushback. My method, I am arcane fire. And I take burning soul. And for that one or two boss fights with that much spell pushback. I just spam fireball instead of AB and play like a fire mage. My rationale – why fight against it when the cards are stacked so heavily against you. Third method – radical worth discussing. Have a fully tweaked out haste set. Spec into deep deep arcane. Wear the BT mage trinket, wear lightning capacitor and spam AM. You have 100% pushback immunity compared to even fire’s 70%. Maybe, it will be just as competitive. This is only specifically for those very few boss fights where spell pushback is so significant it matters. Part 2I: Trinket discussion. Another big topic by itself. I am currently using serpant coil braid and Sorceror's Alchemist Stone. Others may have their own preference on which are the best trinkets an arcane raiding mage should be using. But mine are these two. I am not sure about the way Rawr ranks trinkets, and whether the intangiblee benefits of alchemist stone and serpant coil braid on mana are factored into the value of such trinkets. But certainly, the extra mana gain is extremely valuable because they allow that much more AB spam. And the longer the fight, which allows for more potting and eating of gem, then the greater the benefit. Certainly worth further discussion. Part 2J: resources I personally love using RawrRawr - Release: Rawr b14.1. Its easy to use and allows you to swap gear and see the immediate results. Kavan knows exactly how Rawr works. Another resource is magegraf by Vontre. It shows your spell sequences and damage in graphical form. A quick ballpark easy to use way to judge your DPS is to have a damage meter and look at how much your average arcane blast hits for in raids. Let's say it averages 2400 per arcane blast normal hit. This means that it will crit for 4200 (2400 x 1.75). Then look at your crit rate. Let's say its 30%. This means that on average, your arcane blast spam will give you [30% x 4200 + 70% x 2400] / 1.5 = 2940 / 1.5 = 1960 DPS. Arcane power, trinkets, bloodlust, can push you above this figure, but on the flip side, if you can't cast AB 100% of the time, if you have to move and bave to reapply the arcane debuff, etc etc, can all cause it to be lower than this number. And of course, Rawr is much better and much more precise. This is just a quick and easy way to get an average ballpark DPS figure you can aim for if you achieve something close to 100% AB spam. Conclusion Wow, this has been a long post. Thanks for reading so far. I hope this helps at least set the right track on further in depth discussions about arcane raiding and arcane gearing in this thread. Let’s keep this a productive thread aimed at educating all mages on arcane raiding, and pushing arcane DPS ever further and further to its theoretical best. So, feel free to contribute any of your comments, disagree with mine, bring forth your theories. But most importantly, keep the topic of discussion on arcane. (Fire and frost spec discussions or comparision are not entertained and welcome here). We are die hard arcanists! It is a choice we made, simple as that. So let’s keep to the subject and discuss arcane raiding! Thanks! ^_^ Alvira Last edited by Alvira : 07/10/08 at 7:20 AM.