Elitist Jerks - View Single Post - WoW: The RNG (Random Number Generator) eSport?

◊ Praetorian · 07/03/08, 10:57 AM

This thread is a bit silly and I'm always very, very leery of comparisons between WoW and RL sports and such, but my point is simply this:

There are a large number of very successful mainstream sports and competitive events that have random or pseudorandom elements and succeed in attracting viewers and fans despite that. And saying "it's all controllable physics" is a cop-out. The difference between a home run and a foul ball, or a home run and a warning-track catch, can be and usually is a simple matter of a gust of wind, and yes, if you want to nit-pick the wind isn't "random" either but come on. The motion of a shot in basketball that hits the rim, bounces 4 feet straight up, glances off the backboard, and drops back through the hoop can be explained by physics, but that doesn't mean that it isn't pretty much completely luck, and that no player can intentionally cause that result nor do they expect it. At the far end of the spectrum, as noted, you have card games that revolve entirely around randomness and yet attract tens of millions of dollars in prize money and lucrative sponsorships these days.

When you come down to a World Series of Poker final table and there are 2 people left with equal chip stacks, and one goes all-in with Q8 against AA, and then flops Q88 or something, and wins the whole thing right there, the RNG determined the outcome. It took skilled and steady play (along with luck) for both of those players to make it through hours and hours of play to reach that final point, but a roll of the dice ends up determining the victor. Does that invalidate the whole event? Is it any different from WoW arena finals where both teams clearly deserve to be there by virtue of their steady victories over many top opponents, but something like a PS dispel on the first try tips the outcome of one particular match at the end?

I don't think it is. So I'd suggest stopping the arguments about how any sort of RNG element at all is unacceptable. It's a misplaced argument. WoW faces two obstacles as an eSport:

1) Viewability -- the competition needs to be as viewer-friendly as possible. This is the main area in which improvements can take place, and already have -- the current spectator UI is miles ahead of what we had at WSVG a year ago.
2) Accessibility -- I can watch a tournament and go buy Counterstrike or Starcraft and play them online right away, even though I'd be terrible. I can't just say "wow, that looks fun, I want to play a level 70 rogue in arena" and just go do it without first spending weeks leveling and gearing my character (though the TR theoretically lowers this barrier somewhat).

07/03/08, 10:57 AM	#91 (permalink)
◊ Praetorian Mike Tyson Gurgthock Orc Shaman <Elitist Jerks> Mal'Ganis	This thread is a bit silly and I'm always very, very leery of comparisons between WoW and RL sports and such, but my point is simply this: There are a large number of very successful mainstream sports and competitive events that have random or pseudorandom elements and succeed in attracting viewers and fans despite that. And saying "it's all controllable physics" is a cop-out. The difference between a home run and a foul ball, or a home run and a warning-track catch, can be and usually is a simple matter of a gust of wind, and yes, if you want to nit-pick the wind isn't "random" either but come on. The motion of a shot in basketball that hits the rim, bounces 4 feet straight up, glances off the backboard, and drops back through the hoop can be explained by physics, but that doesn't mean that it isn't pretty much completely luck, and that no player can intentionally cause that result nor do they expect it. At the far end of the spectrum, as noted, you have card games that revolve entirely around randomness and yet attract tens of millions of dollars in prize money and lucrative sponsorships these days. When you come down to a World Series of Poker final table and there are 2 people left with equal chip stacks, and one goes all-in with Q8 against AA, and then flops Q88 or something, and wins the whole thing right there, the RNG determined the outcome. It took skilled and steady play (along with luck) for both of those players to make it through hours and hours of play to reach that final point, but a roll of the dice ends up determining the victor. Does that invalidate the whole event? Is it any different from WoW arena finals where both teams clearly deserve to be there by virtue of their steady victories over many top opponents, but something like a PS dispel on the first try tips the outcome of one particular match at the end? I don't think it is. So I'd suggest stopping the arguments about how any sort of RNG element at all is unacceptable. It's a misplaced argument. WoW faces two obstacles as an eSport: 1) Viewability -- the competition needs to be as viewer-friendly as possible. This is the main area in which improvements can take place, and already have -- the current spectator UI is miles ahead of what we had at WSVG a year ago. 2) Accessibility -- I can watch a tournament and go buy Counterstrike or Starcraft and play them online right away, even though I'd be terrible. I can't just say "wow, that looks fun, I want to play a level 70 rogue in arena" and just go do it without first spending weeks leveling and gearing my character (though the TR theoretically lowers this barrier somewhat).