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Rating: 3 votes, 4.67 average.

The Role of Rogues

Posted 06/07/11 at 6:55 PM by Aldriana
When last I posted, I discussed what sort of changes I believe rogues need to be competitive in the modern raiding game. Having read other discussion on the topic - both in response to my post and otherwise - it seems to me that it might be a good idea to take a step back from discussion of *what* changes are needed and address *why* changes are needed. That is: while I proposed solutions last time, I feel that there's still some disagreement about what the problem is. Hence, I would like to clarify the problem that *I* believe needs to be solved - some of you will disagree, and that's fine, but I feel like its a discussion worth having.

Some, for instance, suggest that we don't need additional burst damage or target-switching tools; that if we could simply do better sustained DPS than everyone else, that would balance our ineffectualness at certain tasks on certain encounters. Others (mostly nonrogues) have suggested that we should merely be content to reside in the middle of the pack - after all, *someone* has to be in the middle of the pack - why not rogues? Still others point out that we have many advantages in terms of defensive cooldowns that allow us to excel on fights like Al'akir and Twin Dragons; that the lower amount of healing we need compensates us for the lower amount of DPS we do. The problem, I feel, is that all of these answers miss the point, which is: rogues, in their current incarnation, fundamentally occupy a different role than other classes. And that's a bad thing.

So, for instance, compare an Assassination Rogue to a Fury Warrior; in some ways, we're quite similar - both are melee DPS classes, both have a pretty good interrupt for fights that require one, and (following the tweaks to both classes on PTR), our overall damage output across all T11 fights will be relatively similar. And by Blizzard's philosophy of "bring the player, not the class", that means we should be relatively interchangeable. But when you look a little closer... we're really not.

On a fight like Cho'gall, the warrior is just better - their ability to rapidly switch targets makes them vastly better at killing elementals. The one week I was on that duty, our fury warrior did quite literally double my damage to elementals (3.95 million to 2.07 million). That isn't the sort of thing that our planned 5% buff - or their planned 5% nerf - will fix. Its not a sustained DPS problem - its just that the mechanics of that fight means that one fury warrior can do the work of two assassination rogues.

On the other hand, there are fights like V+T, where a rogue is just better than a fury warrior; we have many survivability cooldowns and can respec to get more; this allows us to dominate the shadow realm in a way that no other class can match - particularly a fury warrior, who has no such cooldowns. And even neglecting the shadow realm, its a raid-damage heavy fight with relatively slow target switches, so our competitive single-target DPS and defensive cooldowns would be an asset there as well.

The list goes on - on Al'akir our cooldowns significantly reduce healer load; on Conclave their burst helps break shields; on Maloriak FoK + Vile Poisons gives us vastly better AoE Damage, while on Magmaw their cleaves allow them to dominate. There's actually very few fights that don't favor one spec over the other.

Now, some would say this is a good thing - neither class dominates the other across the board; both have their own strengths and weaknesses. We both have fights we do well, and fights where we do not so well. This is how balance is supposed to work, right?

Well... no. There's basically 3 problems with this philosophy.

First, there's the simple fact that sustained DPS fights are usually boring - when one builds a list of the most interesting and fun raid bosses, one probably will not find Patchwerk or Brutallus atop the list. I don't think anyone really wants to see a full tier of (basically) tank and spank bosses; what makes fights interesting is the need to switch targets and burn things down quickly and generally do more than just beat on a single target. Unfortunately, that means "interesting" fights tend to favor the "burst and cleave" toolkit over the "sustained and survivability" toolkit.

Second, there's the fact that our toolkit tends to have more overlap with casters. Assassination AoE might be better than Fury AoE, but why use either when you can have a fire mage? When you need sustained DPS on a target, why not use a shadow priest or warlock - who can multidot to help on other targets - instead of an Assassination rogue (who can't)? More and more, the melee role is about the quick swaps and burst damage while the ranged provide the sustained pressure; this increasingly marginalizes the rogue's role.

Finally, there's (again) the issue of "bring the player, not the class". Blizzard doesn't want to make fights that absolutely require a rogue; hence, fights built around the concept of "you need someone with really good survival to spend all fight in the shadow realm" will never be the norm, as right now *only* rogues can really do that. So there's the occasional gimmick fight where rogues are bordering on indispensable... but *most* fights are built more for the Fury Warrior toolkit.

Hence: the fact that rogues have a role to themselves is, fundamentally, a problem. Thus, Blizzard needs to adopt one of two approaches to fixing it.

The first is what I detailed previously - give rogues the ability to fulfill the more traditional melee role, with burst damage and cleaves and all the other tools that entails. Its fine if a Fury Warrior can do 10% (heck, 25%) more damage on Cho'gall elementals than we can; but when they're doing quite literally twice as much, that's a problem - this gap would need to be reduced. The problem with this approach is that it somewhat goes against our essential character; we're a class that hits fast rather than hard, and relies on control in PvP rather than raw smash-your-face-in damage, and so forth; its hard to preserve this while still letting us fill the same roles as Warriors do.

The other option (which isn't without its own set of problems) would be to expand our role to be an essential part of all fights, and then allow other classes to fill it. Right now we're the class that survives where other people can't, and this serves us well on V+T and Al'akir; if they made almost all fights require such a component (much like almost all current fights require burst damage), and added those survivability tools to, say, Unholy DKs and Ret Pallies... now we don't need burst, because we have a clear and well-defined role in all fights that we share with others. Of course, this severely limits Blizzard's ability to design fights, so I think this solution is unlikely - nor am I sure it would be terribly fun if it did come to pass - but its the sort of change they'd need to make if they don't want to let rogues have burst. Just doing more damage isn't enough; just having more survivability isn't enough. They need to give us a clearly defined role and make that role essential on all fights in a way that neither sustained melee DPS nor survivability is right now.
Total Comments 12

Comments

Old
i think one essential part is missing.
Aggro has always been a strong suit for rogues, because of vanish, feint etc. In Cata the encounters do not have something like a wing buffet or an aggro reset, where the rogue could use his advantages.

But somehow i feel, that the advantages of the rogues are not meaningful enough in these type of encounters. i mean e.g. with the damage reducing capabilities. You have to do the encounter until everybody survives it and not just the rogue, right? That leaves us in a kind of awkward spot, having those advantages, but unable to capitalize on it somehow.
So you can work around not having those capabilities in most fights. But working around half of the damage done is arguably harder imo.

Therefore i hope for significant changes in encounter design.
Posted 06/08/11 at 8:42 AM by yunero yunero is offline
Old
Golijov's Avatar
I agree with a lot of your post, however I would say that it's a little disingenuous to say something to the effect of "rogues are bad at cleave" when our combat spec is arguably the strongest cleave in the game. My point is solely that when comparing DPS, you have to compare the entire class instead of just a spec by spec basis. I feel this also helps make a stronger argument that rogues need help - when you look at the capabilities of other classes and make a comparison assuming that the rogue will always use the optimal spec for the encounter being discussed, you get a better picture of the situation we are in. When a particular class is at the top (or close) on every encounter provided they are the proper spec (and exercising proper judgement when talking about hybrids whose roles do not share gear) that is potentially a problem.
Posted 06/08/11 at 6:48 PM by Golijov Golijov is offline
Old
I think you're sort of missing the point. Granted, Combat is good at cleave so will fair better on Magmaw and Halfus - but the general characterization as a sustained DPS class (as opposed to a burst one) with many survivability tools remains. The difference in role between Combat and Fury may be smaller - which is why I chose Assassination to illustrate my point - but its still significant. And I rather strongly disagree that its in any way relevant to compare the capability of a rogue willing to respec between all specs as needed with any particular spec of another class; and given that there's no other pure melee classes to compare with on a straight across class-to-class basis, the only reasonable comparison to be made is on a spec to spec basis. I think this is an important point that many people miss - in point of fact I thought seriously about writing about it rather than what you see above - so I'm going to take a few minutes to discuss it in detail.

Let us posit, for the moment, that the goal of class balance is to wind up with roughly the same number of each class in raids. So in a 25man raid, if things are "balanced", it should be desirable to have (on average) 2.5 members of each class. This is not to say that you won't sometimes see a raid with 4 druids or 4 paladins, but it shouldn't be any more common than a raid with 4 rogues or 4 hunters, nor should it be any more common than a raid with 1 druid or 1 paladin. Clearly a range of different compositions should be possible - bring the player, not the class and all that - but, on average, across all raid groups of a given quality, we should see 2.5 members of each class in a 25man raid. I won't claim this is the only definition of balance, but I think its a reasonable one - while its true that rogues shouldn't be "better" than druids, its also true that druids shouldn't be "better" than rogues.

Under this assumption, if a rogue must be willing and able to freely rotate between any and all specs available to the class in order to earn those 2.5 raid spots, its only reasonable to expect that the other classes do likewise. If a warrior can say "I am a fury warrior, and only a fury warrior" and still compete with a rogue freely swapping between all 3 specs on equal footing, the logical consequence is that you will bring as many fury warriors as you do rogues; and then, provided the other two talent trees are in any way playable, you will wind up with more warriors in your raid than you do rogues. And, per our initial assumption, this is bad.

Hence, if a rogue is to be expected to swap between Assassination (for Sinestra and Maloriak), Combat (for Magmaw and Halfus), and Sub (for V+T) to fully realize his value to the guild, it should likewise be expected that the paladins are willing to swap between prot, ret, and holy depending on what's needed on a given fight. If a warrior wants to specialize in Fury and only play Prot once a week on Halfus, they should be exactly as valuable to the raid than the rogue who only plays Assassination except for V+T, where they swap to Sub. It is for this reason that I'm not significantly more concerned by the low DPS of cat druids than I am by the low DPS of sub rogues. If you limit yourself to the weakest spec available to your class - only - you cannot expect to compete on equal footing with the best spec of other classes. I realize that gear issues complicate this matter somewhat - which is why some people dislike this definition of balance - but if you expect equal representation across classes, it cannot be otherwise.

The problem, of course, is that its hard to compare utility across roles. A rogue rotating between all three specs *does* need to be better than a warrior that does every fight as fury... but by how much? What's "fair", to result in equal class representation? I don't think that's a question with an easy answer. If there were another pure melee DPS class we could compare with, we could compare our aggregate capability with theirs; but compensating for the ability to tank, or heal, or ranged DPS with purely "better" melee DPS is not really practical. As such, we must shift to an alternative definition. And the only one *I* can think of that still (mostly) adheres to our above definition of class balance is that of spec balance. If each of my specs is as broadly useful as each of yours, the fact that we have the same number of specs will result in us winding up with roughly equal class representation. Hence: to wind up with fair class balance, Assassination and Combat must each, individually, be as viable as Fury, or Feral, or Enhancement, or Ret. If that's *not* the case, then we have a class balance problem. While it might seem unfair that a rogue rotating between specs will thus be "better" than a DPS warrior... if such a rogue *isn't* better, why bring a rogue when you can bring a fury warrior that's just as good... but can also tank on fights where you need more than the usual number?

Hence: I don't think its at all unreasonable to make a straight across comparison between Assassination and Fury and note that they have radically different capabilities. Assassination is the strongest rogue spec (based on overall performance on dpsbot), so if it cannot compete with a fury warrior on equal footing... we have a problem. Its fine if you want to define them to be in different roles (but then, as noted, both roles need to be equally necessary), but expecting an assassination rogue to respec combat to keep his raid spot is no more reasonable than expecting a fury warrior to respec to prot (or a feral druid to boomkin, or a enh shaman to resto) to do the same.
Posted 06/08/11 at 9:01 PM by Aldriana Aldriana is offline
Old
Golijov's Avatar
You have a fair point. However, as I mentioned in my first comment I think that expecting a pure dps class to earn their spot by playing all of their available specs is far less demanding to the player than asking a hybrid class to do so, with the primary exception being when doing so does not change their actual role. A fury warrior swapping to arms or vice versa is quite different than that same warrior swapping from arms or fury to protection. Now occasionally things like BiS piece/gem/enchant differences occur, but generally speaking it is fairly reasonable to expect a player of a class to be able to play all of the specs that fall within a single role in any competent raiding guild. I do agree with the point you made later in your post, though I'll extend it to apply to all pures: a player of a pure class who min/maxes their spec choice on a per-encounter basis should be at a bare minimum as effective as the hybrid specs that share their role. Otherwise, there is no incentive to bring them over classes who have a one size fits all type spec. I think it is appropriate to balance pure classes under the assumption that they will use the most effective spec for a particular encounter, and from that assumption to ensure that the class's tool kit can handle what the encounter designers come up with. Its fortunate that pure classes only dps, this sort of issue would definitely be far harder to balance with healing or tanking.
Posted 06/09/11 at 1:36 AM by Golijov Golijov is offline
Old
I agree very much with your blog. I get very frustrated with the length of time it takes for us to ramp up our damage, thus making target switches for adds a large dps loss for our class. I have been thinking about this problem throughout the day. A possible solution to this issue is to change the nature of the cold blood talent. Instead of a single crit, it could be a sustained mode. This would work much the way combat spec blade fury works. While this mode is active, DP would be consumed and increase envenom damage by a percentage of the DP's damage. This of course would scale so that in shorter fights (i.e. an add or trash mobs in heroics) we could burst them down quickly but in long fights it would be a major dps loss to keep this mode active. This would effectively change the rotation on lower health mobs to something like Shiv x 5 > envenom. In effect, we would have to learn to recognize situations when this would be beneficial and adjust our play-style accordingly. I was trying to think of ways to give our class the ability to burst in specific situations without revamping the way our class does its damage. Do you have any specific ideas on changes that could be implemented to solve this problem? I would be very interested to hear your thoughts, as you articulated the nature of the problem in a very concise manner.
Posted 06/09/11 at 12:31 PM by Liltimma Liltimma is offline
Old
I guess I just don't agree that its that burdensome to maintain a second set of gear. It does take a bit of extra time and bag space, but so does optimally switching between specs for pure classes (unless you're willing to spend a *lot* of extra time and money on respeccing/reforging/regemming/etc.) But in both cases, I'd characterize it as the sort of thing that good players in top guilds do, but more casual players in more middling guilds don't. So I think its totally reasonable (if difficult) to compare the capability of pures that respec based on fight to ranged that do the same, and totally reasonable to compare pures that don't to hybrids that don't; but comparing pures that respec to hybrids that don't just seems like an artificial comparison to me.

I'd also note that I think there's an important difference between respeccing to fill a need and respeccing to avoid getting screwed. Rogues go Sub on V+T not because Assassination isn't a viable spec on the fight - if you had other people to do the shadow realm, you could have Assassination + Combat rogues on the upstairs mob and they'd do just fine. But you need some high-survivability DPS to fill a role on the fight, hence rogues respec to help out. Similarly, you have DPS respeccing to tank on Halfus not because their DPS specs are ineffective, but because you need an abnormally large number of tanks on that fight. This is very different than, say, forcing a Combat rogue to go Assassination on Sinestra because Combat, as a spec, just doesn't work on the fight. I'm fine with respeccing to fill a need; I think its less good if you need to respec *out* of a spec that's simply nonfunctional on a given fight. The obvious conclusion is that all specs need to be viable on all fights, which is another reason I think its fair to compare an Assassination Rogue to a Fury Warrior while ignoring the properties of Combat.

In terms of fixing this: I gave some simple ideas for short-term changes that could help in my previous entry; in terms of proposing a major overhaul, I may do such a thing at some point, but I'm not ready to do so quite yet.
Posted 06/09/11 at 6:29 PM by Aldriana Aldriana is offline
Old
Just one thing to note: It's plain false that rogues are the only class that can dominate the Twilight Realm in the double dragon fight. It is true that with a rogue the Heroic Mode part of this encounter is pretty much nonsens, however a warrior can also do the add kill duty without any problems if he knows how, regardless of his/her spec. You can't stay forever in the Twilight Realm because of the debuff but you can stay there long enough to kill all adds so that there is no need to stay longer in the Realm. With the next Phase Transition you can swap out the warriors. Pretty simple if you have at least 2 warriors in your raid which know how to play their class and are able to move correctly in the Twilight Realm.
Posted 06/10/11 at 2:15 AM by Fyrn0815 Fyrn0815 is offline
Old
In 10mans, sure. In 25man, 2 rogues down fulltime tend to slowly fall behind, so I'm skeptical that anything short of about 5 warriors would do the job. And even so: if 1 rogue can do the job of two warriors, I think its fair to say that the rogue is the superior choice - much like while a rogue *can* kill adds on Cho'gall, a warrior is clearly better at it.

So, only? No. Best? Well, I've never done it with a warrior so can't say for absolute certain, but I think there's a pretty compelling argument to be made.
Posted 06/10/11 at 2:56 AM by Aldriana Aldriana is offline
Old
I came on board playing wow in bc. My main is a rogue. Until recently, that was my only toon. I did combat until cata where I now run both muti and combat. I do keep two sets of gear, one for each. I think rogues should be the highest melee dps class as we are the only melee class that can't OS out of dps. To be sitting in the middle of the dps pack on most fights is unacceptable. We are the lowest played class because we don't bring much to the table.

It is a class with an intent to control or kill, which most other classes can now do. I would bring Vanish to that table. From a raiding perspective it first and foremost drops all of our threat that we would be building if we were at the top of the dps charts. Keeping us in the middle of the pack make minimizes the advantage of the class specific function. Second would be our other threat countering abilities of faint and tricks. Tricks is useful as a dps bonus to another raider, not ourselves other than to reduce threat which no longer is a problem due to our lackluster dps. Faint is also a negligible class specific function negate by the lack of threat generating dps.

A good rogue (player) should not have to worry about slowing down his dps given that we have so many threat reducing abilities. Warriors aren't so fortunate.
Posted 06/10/11 at 6:36 PM by afortuna afortuna is offline
Updated 06/10/11 at 7:52 PM by afortuna
Old
I have two 85 rogues and have played rogue almost exclusively since release (US then EU). I utilise multiple gear sets, min/max and have played all specs. My current focus on my newly rerolled EU incarnation is PvE (Combat & Assassination) and I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments of Aldriana's post; namely that our current role is unclear and that is a bad thing.

Role wise we currently bring a whole lot of average to the table in most raid encounters. Average single target DPS (deteriorating as target switching becomes more prevalent), interrupts that are less effective than say Shamans, AoE that is less effective than mages, threat management that is largely irrelevant and a degree of survivability that, whilst quite nice at times, doesn't really compensate for the fact that being the last person alive in an encounter is actually not important (indeed some would get annoyed that when the "wipe it up" call goes out we're often the last to die). Not to mention that we can't tank or heal as any spec but that discussion potentially derails this one.

I am one of those (some may say narrow minded but optimistic) people that believes the solution is simple. I think we should stick to basics and have the potential (if played flawlessly) to top meters in a greater range of encounters. I think that a handful of changes such as moving combo points and functionality like BG/Vendetta to the rogue (rather than the target) to assist in target switches and tuning a few dials on other core damage mechanics are all that is needed.

We used to earn our ticket in raids because our DPS was potentially first class. People get that and it's important because we clearly don't bring anything unique in terms of raid buffs (I'd say somewhat less than any number of hunter pets). So our role was doing obscene amounts of damage and we've (recently) lost that blindingly obvious role. We should have it back.

It just might be possible we see the balance tipping back our way in 4.2 but I remain of the view that more fundamental, but again obvious, changes (to assist in target switching) are going to be needed.

TL;DR Our role is damage - give us the potential to perform that role as well as the best of them in a greater range of encounters because currently we can't.
Posted 06/15/11 at 6:20 AM by Druss Druss is offline
Old
My response, unfortunately, didn't get finished. I believe that we have the most threat reducing and mitigation abilities in the game. I am not necessarily a fan of us needing to be at the top of aoe dmg, but feel that we should be for a single target. We have the ability to directly control our threat in ways that don't involve not attacking. I believe that was the original intent behind the design, but Blizzard has gone away from that in the eyes of neutralizing all classes.

As to aoe, imagine a muti rogue with redirect on a 10 sec cool down. Or maybe give muti AR.

For combat, reduce the timer on SS. That would give combat the ability to jump up in dps immediately and switch targets with little loss in dps.

As A bogged, our our role needs to be defined so that the class can effectively be designed, so that we can play it as they designed. If Blizzard wants it to be the average class, then tell us so we can play something else.
Posted 06/15/11 at 8:52 PM by afortuna afortuna is offline
Old
In the case of combat specifically, I think Blizzard is willing to let the spec sit in an overall confusing place, and to be totally awful on some fights. I think that this is somehow related to Blade Flurry and the inexpensive damage it provides on the fights that allow us to just plug in a blender and go to town on two targets.

I am definitely bothered by the social perception that a rogue must be all three rogue specs, but no such expectation exists for other classes- or at least, other melee. I routinely see "rogue" compared with "feral cat", "enhancement", or "ret". Meanwhile, switching specs now requires a full reforge and a hearth, making it a much larger investment of time and gold than at level 60 to do my job.
Posted 06/15/11 at 11:29 PM by Verain Verain is offline
 
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