Mists Beta Thoughts: Feint
Posted 03/29/12 at 3:05 AM by Aldriana
Beta is upon us, giving us our first big-picture look at the rogue changes planned for the next expansion. Previously, we’ve seen talent calculators, ability lists and other fragments of information, but we also had to rely on a certain amount of guesswork to fill in the gaps. Now, we can observe and test everything Blizzard has planned - and hopefully convince them to change it. There are serious flaws with the current implementation.
As a simple example, the changes to Feint are likely to cripple its utility. To understand why, we must first consider how it is currently used - starting with the fact that some rogues don’t use it at all. Feint is purely optional. As many classes lack a comparable survivability tool, no fight can require its use; hence, you can completely ignore it and still win. Clearly it is suboptimal to do so, but it’s important to remember that Feint is not mandatory like some of our abilities and mechanics are.
In reality, though, most people do make at least some use of Feint. Judging by applicants to my guild, top parses from other guilds, and parses sent to me by readers (remember that?), the most common usage pattern is to Feint primarily to mitigate large bursts of incoming damage, such as Electrocute on Nef. This is certainly an improvement over not using it at all, although it still does not utilize the full potential of the ability. It’s a usage pattern dating back to when Feint cost energy, so there was a real tradeoff to be made between damage done and damage taken - while it was there if you needed it, you only wanted to hit it if you really *did* need it, and most of the time you didn’t. Such players often glyph Feint to lose less damage in those circumstances where they find it worth using, but they miss (or at least, do not significantly adjust their usage in response to) the key realization:
Glyph of Feint doesn’t just make Feint cheaper. It makes it free.
There is no reason to reserve Feint for “only when you need it” if you have the glyph. You can hit it to mitigate big chunks of damage. You can hit it to mitigate small amounts of damage. You can hit it as a precaution when there’s even the slightest chance you might take damage. You can even hit it just for fun. It’s free. On most fights there’s little stopping you from hitting it on cooldown all fight long - and you’ll take (on average) 30% less AoE damage by doing so. Given that AoE damage is by far the leading source of damage that rogues take, that’s a significant reduction, and absolutely worth doing.
Of course, while on some fights, such as H:Ultraxion, Feinting on cooldown is as good as you can do, there are others - such as Zon’ozz and Ragnaros - where you can do significantly better. Feinting on cooldown is unlikely to catch all bounces on Zon’ozz, but if you keep an eye on where the shadow orb is you can easily mitigate them all. By paying attention to fight mechanics and learning the patterns of incoming attacks, you can optimize your Feint usage to significantly reduce your damage taken on most fights in modern raid content. The more attention you put into your Feint usage, the larger benefits you reap.
Hence: Feint is one of very few rogue mechanics that scales well with player skill - exactly the sort of mechanic that you want to see in games. It provides meaningful benefits to those players with the skill and interest to optimize its usage, without excessively punishing those who don’t (or can’t) use it at all. In practice, you can often tell more about how much attention a rogue is paying to optimizing their performance by looking at their damage taken instead of their damage done - purely because of the influence of Feint. It’s almost certainly the best ability PvE rogues gained in Cataclysm.
...Which is interesting, given that it’s not a new ability in Cataclysm. Feint as a damage reduction cooldown has existed since Wrath; what changed in Cataclysm is only our ability to take the Glyph that makes it free. Feint, when we had to pay for it with damage, was an occasionally useful button we hit in emergencies; Feint, once free, became a dynamic and interesting mechanic for good players to optimize. And this is exactly what is being lost - in the Mists beta, Feint costs 10 energy.
When Blizzard updated the talent trees in Cataclysm, a major theme was the realization that when you give a DPS class a choice between damage and utility, or damage and defensive abilities, it’s not really a choice at all - DPS wins. Yet this is exactly what they’re trying to do with Feint. Energy spent is damage lost, so any energy cost on Feint will put it in direct competition with damage done. We might still use it for Electrocute on Nef and similar raid-burst-damage situations; but for most fights, it simply won’t be worth the cost.
Moreover, there’s no cooldown, so you never have to worry about whether to use it now or save it for later - if there are two attacks that are both worth mitigating, you will always be able to mitigate both attacks. In combination, these changes take an ability that rogues can use extensively to optimize their performance in many interesting ways and turn it into one that we’ll use rarely and mindlessly - if at all. The current Mists implementation wrecks everything that was good about Feint in Cataclysm.
So why are they doing it? Why would they take an ability that, for the first time since vanilla, is seeing good and interesting usage patterns, and revert its mechanics to an era where it was barely used at all? I can only assume they worry it is too powerful in its current form. Certainly, being able to take 30% less average damage and 50% off bursts is a significant (if oft-overlooked) advantage; I can easily see Blizzard wanting to rein this in to some extent. But there are far better ways of doing so. They could easily make it weaker but still interesting and worth using by doing something like the following:
Feint: Free. 10 second cooldown. 5 second duration. Reduces AoE damage taken by 30%.
Glyph of Feint: Increases Feint mitigation to 40%, but reduces duration to 3 seconds.
It would still be an interesting ability (and still worth using) despite being half as powerful as it is at present. Moreover, there would be an interesting glyph decision to make as well - you can choose to have better average mitigation for fights like Ultraxion, or better peak mitigation for fights like Nef. But instead, they’ve made the one change that risks killing the ability entirely - and that would be a shame. I can only hope that they change their mind.
As a simple example, the changes to Feint are likely to cripple its utility. To understand why, we must first consider how it is currently used - starting with the fact that some rogues don’t use it at all. Feint is purely optional. As many classes lack a comparable survivability tool, no fight can require its use; hence, you can completely ignore it and still win. Clearly it is suboptimal to do so, but it’s important to remember that Feint is not mandatory like some of our abilities and mechanics are.
In reality, though, most people do make at least some use of Feint. Judging by applicants to my guild, top parses from other guilds, and parses sent to me by readers (remember that?), the most common usage pattern is to Feint primarily to mitigate large bursts of incoming damage, such as Electrocute on Nef. This is certainly an improvement over not using it at all, although it still does not utilize the full potential of the ability. It’s a usage pattern dating back to when Feint cost energy, so there was a real tradeoff to be made between damage done and damage taken - while it was there if you needed it, you only wanted to hit it if you really *did* need it, and most of the time you didn’t. Such players often glyph Feint to lose less damage in those circumstances where they find it worth using, but they miss (or at least, do not significantly adjust their usage in response to) the key realization:
Glyph of Feint doesn’t just make Feint cheaper. It makes it free.
There is no reason to reserve Feint for “only when you need it” if you have the glyph. You can hit it to mitigate big chunks of damage. You can hit it to mitigate small amounts of damage. You can hit it as a precaution when there’s even the slightest chance you might take damage. You can even hit it just for fun. It’s free. On most fights there’s little stopping you from hitting it on cooldown all fight long - and you’ll take (on average) 30% less AoE damage by doing so. Given that AoE damage is by far the leading source of damage that rogues take, that’s a significant reduction, and absolutely worth doing.
Of course, while on some fights, such as H:Ultraxion, Feinting on cooldown is as good as you can do, there are others - such as Zon’ozz and Ragnaros - where you can do significantly better. Feinting on cooldown is unlikely to catch all bounces on Zon’ozz, but if you keep an eye on where the shadow orb is you can easily mitigate them all. By paying attention to fight mechanics and learning the patterns of incoming attacks, you can optimize your Feint usage to significantly reduce your damage taken on most fights in modern raid content. The more attention you put into your Feint usage, the larger benefits you reap.
Hence: Feint is one of very few rogue mechanics that scales well with player skill - exactly the sort of mechanic that you want to see in games. It provides meaningful benefits to those players with the skill and interest to optimize its usage, without excessively punishing those who don’t (or can’t) use it at all. In practice, you can often tell more about how much attention a rogue is paying to optimizing their performance by looking at their damage taken instead of their damage done - purely because of the influence of Feint. It’s almost certainly the best ability PvE rogues gained in Cataclysm.
...Which is interesting, given that it’s not a new ability in Cataclysm. Feint as a damage reduction cooldown has existed since Wrath; what changed in Cataclysm is only our ability to take the Glyph that makes it free. Feint, when we had to pay for it with damage, was an occasionally useful button we hit in emergencies; Feint, once free, became a dynamic and interesting mechanic for good players to optimize. And this is exactly what is being lost - in the Mists beta, Feint costs 10 energy.
When Blizzard updated the talent trees in Cataclysm, a major theme was the realization that when you give a DPS class a choice between damage and utility, or damage and defensive abilities, it’s not really a choice at all - DPS wins. Yet this is exactly what they’re trying to do with Feint. Energy spent is damage lost, so any energy cost on Feint will put it in direct competition with damage done. We might still use it for Electrocute on Nef and similar raid-burst-damage situations; but for most fights, it simply won’t be worth the cost.
Moreover, there’s no cooldown, so you never have to worry about whether to use it now or save it for later - if there are two attacks that are both worth mitigating, you will always be able to mitigate both attacks. In combination, these changes take an ability that rogues can use extensively to optimize their performance in many interesting ways and turn it into one that we’ll use rarely and mindlessly - if at all. The current Mists implementation wrecks everything that was good about Feint in Cataclysm.
So why are they doing it? Why would they take an ability that, for the first time since vanilla, is seeing good and interesting usage patterns, and revert its mechanics to an era where it was barely used at all? I can only assume they worry it is too powerful in its current form. Certainly, being able to take 30% less average damage and 50% off bursts is a significant (if oft-overlooked) advantage; I can easily see Blizzard wanting to rein this in to some extent. But there are far better ways of doing so. They could easily make it weaker but still interesting and worth using by doing something like the following:
Feint: Free. 10 second cooldown. 5 second duration. Reduces AoE damage taken by 30%.
Glyph of Feint: Increases Feint mitigation to 40%, but reduces duration to 3 seconds.
It would still be an interesting ability (and still worth using) despite being half as powerful as it is at present. Moreover, there would be an interesting glyph decision to make as well - you can choose to have better average mitigation for fights like Ultraxion, or better peak mitigation for fights like Nef. But instead, they’ve made the one change that risks killing the ability entirely - and that would be a shame. I can only hope that they change their mind.
Total Comments 10
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While obvious in hindsight, it didn't occur to me to use feint on cooldown on ultrax. Maybe doing so will cut down on the cost of diapers for our healers - I'll give it a shot this weekend.
Thanks for noticing this change. I hadn't even thought to look at what they've done with things like feint. |
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I suspect a huge part of the feint change is because of the Elusiveness talent in pvp. With feint moving to a no-cd, no target requirement move Elusiveness and the current feint glpyh would mean pvp rogues would have a permanent 30% damage reduction at no cost.
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I agree that stopping rogues glyph off the energy cost is a nerf. It is more of a problem for Assassination and Subtlety Rogues which have lower energy regen and their dps-per-point-of-energy is higher.
I think they must be doing this to stop Rogues using Feint on cooldown at almost no dps loss. As a damage reduction ability it is pretty overpowered. On Spine progress I was smack bang at the bottom of the damage taken meters and was top on the tendons and the amalgamations and our ability to mitigate aoe damage is perhaps seen by Blizzard to be excessive. There may be a few high aoe damage fights in MOP and perhaps they want to stop Rogues from "cheating" the damage mechanics by 50%+ without losing too much dps. I also agree that lowers the skill cap for Rogues. I personally take great satisfaction checking logs the day after a raid and seeing that I used Feint hundreds of times whereas the other Rogues hardly used it at all. Raid leaders notice this. The change will definitely make it harder to differentiate good from bad Rogues. On the other hand, with the energy cost it will require better timing on Feint, to minimise dps loss, and so you can still differentiate youself from the other Rogues. However, there are plus points: - (if you glyph it and spec Elusiveness) they are making Feint more powerful for Assassination and Combat Rogues, such that it is similar in Mists for all three specs than it was for Subtlety Rogues in Cataclysm that specced into Enveloping Shadows (the new Feint is not as good in terms of pure damage reduction as Sub plus S but it is close). For this, I am very grateful. - they are removing the proximity requirement such that you can use it while running across a room or just before you move into a high aoe damage part of a fight. This is remarkable. I am thinking V+T, Atramedes, Maloriak, Raggy transition - they are also removing the cooldown which gives us the option to maintain higher than 50 or 70% uptime if we wish. Before even seeing Mists raids, I know there will be times when mitigating damage is more important than maximising dps, and Rogues will be a godsend on progress on those fights, because this ability and talent will have good synergy with raid healing cooldowns and spirit link. - Elusiveness is also very strong because it reduces all damage taken and so there will be times when we use Feint just for that (thinking Baleroc shards, Twilight Barrages or Blistering Tentacles). We will definitely use Feint less but this talent will make it very important on some fights. Indeed, this talent may mean we get taken instead of some other classes, depending on the mechanic. I think they are giving the ability more widespread utility but yes they are nefing it in the sense that we will not use it on cooldown. I would not go so far as to say the are putting it back to the way it was in Vanilla, because they are changing the ability so much and giving us this amazing talent (Elusiveness). It requires more calculated use of it, and I am exicited about it (at least the version of it currently on beta). I am talking about PVE. In PVP, it is really amazing and whereas in PVP it hardly ever got used, it will be a very useful cooldown, especially if it are being trained or kited and you can spam it to reduce damage by 30%. |
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1) While its true that free and no cooldown would indeed be potentially overpowered, you'll note that my proposed implementation kept the cooldown on it. I think having to work around the fact that it isn't always available is part of what makes Feint interesting.
2) Removing the targeting requirement is indeed a good thing, but I don't think its enough to offset the disadvantage of the energy cost. 3) While you *can* keep it up 100% of the time... you won't. Ever. In Dragon Soul I can't see using Feint other than soaking double stomps on Morchok and Hagara lightning phase (when you don't have anything better to be doing with your energy) if it costs energy. You'll go from hundreds of feints per night to, like, 12. That's not a good thing. 4) Elusiveness may be circumstantially strong, but it is important to remember the opportunity cost of taking it. If you're using Elusiveness, you're not using Cheat Death or Leeching Poison, which provide significant survivability benefits in their own right *and don't cost energy*. Yes, you can get 30% damage reduction from Elusiveness, but Leeching Poison in current content would heal over 4k HPS, which means that Elusiveness is only superior if you're a) taking a hit that would otherwise be lethal, or b) are taking more than 15k DPS for an extended period of time, which simply doesn't happen that often. Basically: yes, they have done some other good things. But they could do most of those things while still having Feint be free so that we can use it regularly. So why haven't they? |
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One addition, Feint is not necessarily always for free. At least for Combat Rogues, there are situations* with a high enough level of energy regeneration where the global CD invoked by the usage of Feint does actually reduce your damage.
It's back to a decision between damage and utility then, either you spend your energy on a damaging move, or you don't spend the energy and so cap it, by using a move which costs no energy but instead reduces incoming damage. * E.g. bursting down a Claw Tentacle on the Madness fight with ARush, while the AE damage nears its maximum, and similar on Ultraxion with ARush nearing the end of the fight. |
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There is no reason to reserve Feint for “only when you need it” if you have the glyph.
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The more attention you put into your Feint usage, the larger benefits you reap.
I think your complaint is- you want to reduce damage, and pay that price in situational awareness, not situational awareness and dps. You know full well that at the end of the fight, if the warrior outdid you by 2% and you would have been on top if you didn't feint, that most rogues won't feint EVER unless the fight is SO punishing that you might actually SIT the warrior because he CANNOT feint. If there was some mechanic where feinting could return resources, or otherwise help us if used to absorb energy (similar to DKs using AMS to gain runic power at clutch times), then I doubt very much you'd have this complaint. Overall, I like the way feint is looking in mop. I'm especially excited for elusiveness + feint in both pve and pvp- I think both will really make for some amazing tricks, and I think 20 energy is a cheap price to pay. I think that losing what we have now, a great ability to hammer a fun move on cooldown as any spec except combat and mostly lose nothing, is a shame of a thing to lose, but if feint is going to buy us -30% damage of all sorts, it cannot be free. With no cooldown, it shouldn't be free. I respect your preference for the current model of feint, but the one I'm looking at seems more exciting to me. And as you point out, most rogues are using feint only to mitigate the big money, and not on cooldown during Ultraxxion (I don't even do that until final hour, and now we don't even see that- I have terrible energy capping issues on that fight). I have very good healers in our primary group. I believe one of them to be maybe on the edge of world class, and the other two not far behind- they aren't our weak link, or holding us back in any content, is my point. And yet, I've never had any of them ever comment on how little damage I take, especially back when we were progressing on Ultrax and during the part where we were all struggling to live, I was just a low priority on the chart. The niche of "easy to heal dps class" seems to barely register, I'm sorry to say- and I certainly don't see the warrior whispering me the damage taken meter and saying "sweet job". Not saying your point is bad- merely that outside of the EJ rogue forums, I don't think anyone gives a shit about having mitigated a lot of damage correctly, but if I skip the feint button to time my moves better, or just not miss globals, I do more damage, and everyone <3 damage. Quote:
We might still use it for Electrocute on Nef and similar raid-burst-damage situations; but for most fights, it simply won’t be worth the cost.
I think a good glyph would be something that puts feint right back where it is today- feint has a 10 second cooldown, and costs no energy. That would still work with elusiveness probably, and would be good for the attrition type thing you see now. Or something that rewards you for absorbing damage with it. That would be a great glyph too, but it would likely smell mandatory, and would have to be balanced on a razor's edge, and there's very little kit for a move that lets you do that as a thief or ninja. |
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1) While its true that free and no cooldown would indeed be potentially overpowered, you'll note that my proposed implementation kept the cooldown on it. I think having to work around the fact that it isn't always available is part of what makes Feint interesting.
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2) Removing the targeting requirement is indeed a good thing, but I don't think its enough to offset the disadvantage of the energy cost.
3) While you *can* keep it up 100% of the time... you won't. Ever. In Dragon Soul I can't see using Feint other than soaking double stomps on Morchok and Hagara lightning phase (when you don't have anything better to be doing with your energy) if it costs energy. You'll go from hundreds of feints per night to, like, 12. That's not a good thing. You are right, we'll use it less- but we'll also be able to use it during times we normally stand there getting nailed. Quote:
4) Elusiveness may be circumstantially strong, but it is important to remember the opportunity cost of taking it.
Yes, elusiveness isn't always your choice- but when it is, you'll have it. |
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I think you're underestimating the extent to which Leeching Poison kicks Elusiveness's ass and takes its lunch money. Particularly when one costs damage and the other doesn't. I'm fairly certain I would run leeching poison on every single fight in Dragon Soul. And Firelands. And quite possibly T11 as well. And if there was any fight where I didn't, it would because I wanted Cheat Death instead. Elusiveness is pretty clearly the weakest of the three options in almost all cases.
And you're right, a lot of rogues don't care about how much damage they avoid. But they're wrong. Yes, there are times when Feint does actually cost damage, such as during AR. But those aren't up all the time. Most of the time, you have free GCDs that you can spend. And while not all rogues make use of this to Feint incoming damage, it's clearly optimal to do so, so that only reinforces my point: Feint, right now, gives good rogues something to do with their time. Feint, in Mists, is barely worth a keybind. And I think that's unfortunate. Again: I agree that Feint, if it has no CD, needs to cost energy. But given a choice between free with a CD, or having an energy cost, I'd take the first every day of the week and twice on Sunday - not because its clearly more powerful, but because it will actually get used, and the other will not. Abilities that we use - even if some people choose not to - are clearly better than abilities that we don't. |
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I am not really seeing where the current (live) incarnation of Feint would be too powerful, and I would be happy if it translates to MoP intact. In the example of Electrocute or similar abilities, having Feint will look great in the damage taken column sure, but considering other dps classes can bring abilities of a bit larger caliber, such as Tranquility or Rallying Cry, the impact of Feint on a raid-wide scale is certainly dwarfed. Not to mention most hybrid classes seem to be getting additional tools for healing in a pinch.
Now what I would argue as being too powerful is the MoP-Elusiveness, especially considering the PvP aspects (NB: I am certainly not the expert here). There, the trade-off of a bit of sustained dps for a chunk of survivability, especially on the more frequent occasions where you are off-target is quite easy. Considering how 'unkillable' the Recuperate of early Cataclysm days made us, having 30% damage reduction up as much as you want, might be a bit overboard. |
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To be clear: I'm not saying that Feint is necessarily overpowered in its current form. I merely assert that the only way Blizzard's changes make any sense at all is if they think it is. I'd be fine with it remaining in its current form; I'm merely suggesting that if they feel it needs a nerf, duration, cooldown, and/or potency are better ways to go about it than cost.
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Recent Blog Entries by Aldriana
- Ten Things Blizzard Should Change About Rogues Before Mists (08/30/12)
- Mists Beta Thoughts: Feint (03/29/12)
- 5.0 Talents (11/13/11)
- On Monks (10/25/11)
- Fixing Rogues, Part 5: Filler (09/24/11)





