Ten Things Blizzard Should Change About Rogues Before Mists
Posted 08/30/12 at 2:52 AM by Aldriana
I suspect I’m not alone in being somewhat disappointed with the updates rogues have received in Mists. From talking to other rogues and reading the discussion on various forums, the consensus seems to be that the planned rogue changes are, well, bland. Boring. Uninspired. And, in a number of cases, buggy.
And unfortunately, it’s mostly too late to do much about this. We’re simply too close to launch for them to make major changes. Its all well and good to point out that Symbiosis would have made an awesome rogue cooldown (drop the ability-granting part, keep the ability-taking part, rename it Copycat. Think about it.) but ultimately its just not going to happen with less than a month to go. Ultimately, what we have now is what we’re going to run with for at least the beginning of Mists. Certainly for the first tier of raiding, and quite possibly until the next expansion.
However, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t still things they could do to make the tools they’ve given us more appealing. There are plenty of minor ability tweaks and cosmetic changes they could make, even at this late date, to make the class feel more polished. Having the class be fun and interesting is not just a matter of having powerful abilities and high DPS. Its also how usable the tools you have are. Its about abilities that work the way you expect. And sometimes it really is as simple as having stuff that looks cool.
Cleaning this stuff up may not matter much in terms of the overall balance of the class - indeed, that’s exactly why I think they could still get it done before Mists drops - and there’d certainly still be myriad legitimate concerns with the nature of the class, a topic I will address at some future date. But I think it would help a lot in having the class feel... finished. Attended to. Not so half-assed. However you want to put it.
1. Drop the damage component from Tricks
I’ve previously discussed some of the problems with Tricks, but they go beyond the reasons I mentioned there. Not only is it boring, the notion of a purely altruistic buff for rogues just doesn’t make sense thematically. When I think of rogues in combat, I think of watching the actions of my teammates and ruthlessly exploiting any openings they may create; I don’t think of tanking my own efficacy for the benefit of my teammates. It would honestly make far more sense if it lowered the DPS of an ally and raised yours - except that would cause even more guild drama than the current version. More realistically, there are any number of ways they could redesign it to provide a synergistic benefit in groups while still making it actually personally desirable for the rogue. However, any such solution would take careful design and balancing, and its probably too late for that to happen; but as an intermediate solution, making it purely a threat management tool with no damage component would help a lot. Yes, threat is rarely an issue these days. Yes, it makes Tricks mostly useless. But I’d happily take “mostly useless” over the catastrophe that is the current design.
2. Make Blade Flurry a class ability instead of Combat-specific
Right now Combat is the only spec with a viable cleave. Any fight where you have 2-3 adjacent targets that all need DPS, speccing Combat is going to be virtually mandatory. This is stupid. All 3 specs should have a cleave, so we’re not railroaded into any particular tree by virtue of it doing 50% more DPS on certain fights. And the simplest way to do this is to give all rogues Blade Flurry. Yes, it will be weaker for Assassination (and possibly sub) due to getting more damage from poisons and bleeds. It’d still be better than nothing, which is what we have right now.
3. Fix FoK CP Generation
Right now, if you FoK while having CP left on a previous target - even if that target is dead - FoK doesn’t generate CP on your current target. So if, you’re AoEing a pack of monsters, and your current target dies first (say, because you’re autoattacking it), you have to pop redirect (or an undersized finisher) to continue the rotation. This is an obvious bug. Its been known for months. I’d really like to see it fixed.
4. Fix Feint
Cata Feint was better. Please give it back. Also note that there have been some guilds experimenting with using rogues as offtanks on certain fights where the OT only takes AoE damage, and whether it proves to be effective or not, the fact that its even being considered says to me that there’s something deeply wrong with the current state of affairs.
5. Give Shadow Blades a decent animation
When a paladin pops wings or a warrior pops Bloodbath, you notice. When a rogue pops Shadow Blades... you blink and you miss it. Oh, sure, there’s technically an ongoing spell effect for the entire duration of the ability, but its so subtle that I didn’t notice it until I was specifically told what I was looking for. Is it too much to ask that our brand new cooldown - the major new ability PvE rogues are getting in Mists - has an animation that is, you know, noticeable? Perhaps even “cool”?
One idea I saw that I rather like would be for it to morph your weapons into a black/shadowy version of warglaives for the duration of the effect. They already have the art assets so it shouldn’t be *too* hard to implement, it would harken back to a signature rogue weapon, and it’d look really neat. Much nicer than a flicker of shadowy swirls and then a nigh-invisible aura on your hands.
6. Give Shroud of Concealment a better graphic
A featureless white circle with a bit of fog at the edge is not what I think of when I think of the words “shroud” or “concealment”. Could we at least get it in purple? Maybe with a fuzzier edge to make it seem a little more “shadowy” and a little less “placeholder graphic to show where the edge of the effect is?” Better yet, could we have the “sky goes dark” effect from Diablo 2 Cloak of Shadows as well? I mean, the ability has other problems, to be sure, but it seems like the very least they could do is make it look cool.
7. Give Shadow Walk an animation, period.
I have no evidence that Shadow Walk is even implemented. I’ve hit the button a couple of times, and as far as I can tell... nothing happens. Would it be too much to ask for, like, some little shadow swirlies to let you know that you’ve cast something? As a bare minimum they could use what is currently the Shadow Blades cast animation (assuming they give Shadow Blades a proper animation as previously suggested), and I’m sure there are better options out there that wouldn’t be too hard to implement. I’m not asking for fancy here. Just something to let you know that the button actually did something when you pressed it.
8. Let Mutilate and Backstab start autoattack, even if you’re out of energy.
If you have the energy to perform a move, and you attack a target, autoattack starts. What happens if you don’t have enough energy? Well, if you’re using, say, Hemo, autoattack starts anyway. If you’re using Backstab or Mutilate, it doesn’t. Why? Who knows. I mean, its not like we can’t fix this with startattack macros, but it seems to me that having consistent behavior in such matters is the sort of polish that the class is missing right now.
9. Make Expose Armor Free
Warrior and druid tanks apply the armor debuff just by being tanks. Feral Druids can apply it for free as well (it costs mana, but like that matters in cat form). Warriors have a glyph to make it free. And rogues... have to pay 25 energy every 30 seconds. Thus, we are clearly and unequivocally the worst source of it. Why? All it means is that we’re punished unnecessarily in those rare cases when we do have to apply it. I see no reason why we shouldn’t be able to pay for it only in GCDs and attention, like all other DPSers who can provide the buff do.
10. Can we have Deadly Brew back? Please?
Like the previous point: rogues are rarely, if ever, going to be the best choice to snare stuff in raids. However, in those cases where we *are* called on to do so, it would be nice if we didn’t have to redo our spec and drop valuable utility (speccing out of Leeching and/or Paralytic Poison) to provide Crippling. If it were a PvP balance issue I could understand it - but they specifically put in on the PvP set so *only* PvP rogues will have it, and PvE rogues *never* will. How does that make sense? Move it back to talents. Make it a class ability. Do *something*. The current arrangement just makes no sense.
And unfortunately, it’s mostly too late to do much about this. We’re simply too close to launch for them to make major changes. Its all well and good to point out that Symbiosis would have made an awesome rogue cooldown (drop the ability-granting part, keep the ability-taking part, rename it Copycat. Think about it.) but ultimately its just not going to happen with less than a month to go. Ultimately, what we have now is what we’re going to run with for at least the beginning of Mists. Certainly for the first tier of raiding, and quite possibly until the next expansion.
However, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t still things they could do to make the tools they’ve given us more appealing. There are plenty of minor ability tweaks and cosmetic changes they could make, even at this late date, to make the class feel more polished. Having the class be fun and interesting is not just a matter of having powerful abilities and high DPS. Its also how usable the tools you have are. Its about abilities that work the way you expect. And sometimes it really is as simple as having stuff that looks cool.
Cleaning this stuff up may not matter much in terms of the overall balance of the class - indeed, that’s exactly why I think they could still get it done before Mists drops - and there’d certainly still be myriad legitimate concerns with the nature of the class, a topic I will address at some future date. But I think it would help a lot in having the class feel... finished. Attended to. Not so half-assed. However you want to put it.
1. Drop the damage component from Tricks
I’ve previously discussed some of the problems with Tricks, but they go beyond the reasons I mentioned there. Not only is it boring, the notion of a purely altruistic buff for rogues just doesn’t make sense thematically. When I think of rogues in combat, I think of watching the actions of my teammates and ruthlessly exploiting any openings they may create; I don’t think of tanking my own efficacy for the benefit of my teammates. It would honestly make far more sense if it lowered the DPS of an ally and raised yours - except that would cause even more guild drama than the current version. More realistically, there are any number of ways they could redesign it to provide a synergistic benefit in groups while still making it actually personally desirable for the rogue. However, any such solution would take careful design and balancing, and its probably too late for that to happen; but as an intermediate solution, making it purely a threat management tool with no damage component would help a lot. Yes, threat is rarely an issue these days. Yes, it makes Tricks mostly useless. But I’d happily take “mostly useless” over the catastrophe that is the current design.
2. Make Blade Flurry a class ability instead of Combat-specific
Right now Combat is the only spec with a viable cleave. Any fight where you have 2-3 adjacent targets that all need DPS, speccing Combat is going to be virtually mandatory. This is stupid. All 3 specs should have a cleave, so we’re not railroaded into any particular tree by virtue of it doing 50% more DPS on certain fights. And the simplest way to do this is to give all rogues Blade Flurry. Yes, it will be weaker for Assassination (and possibly sub) due to getting more damage from poisons and bleeds. It’d still be better than nothing, which is what we have right now.
3. Fix FoK CP Generation
Right now, if you FoK while having CP left on a previous target - even if that target is dead - FoK doesn’t generate CP on your current target. So if, you’re AoEing a pack of monsters, and your current target dies first (say, because you’re autoattacking it), you have to pop redirect (or an undersized finisher) to continue the rotation. This is an obvious bug. Its been known for months. I’d really like to see it fixed.
4. Fix Feint
Cata Feint was better. Please give it back. Also note that there have been some guilds experimenting with using rogues as offtanks on certain fights where the OT only takes AoE damage, and whether it proves to be effective or not, the fact that its even being considered says to me that there’s something deeply wrong with the current state of affairs.
5. Give Shadow Blades a decent animation
When a paladin pops wings or a warrior pops Bloodbath, you notice. When a rogue pops Shadow Blades... you blink and you miss it. Oh, sure, there’s technically an ongoing spell effect for the entire duration of the ability, but its so subtle that I didn’t notice it until I was specifically told what I was looking for. Is it too much to ask that our brand new cooldown - the major new ability PvE rogues are getting in Mists - has an animation that is, you know, noticeable? Perhaps even “cool”?
One idea I saw that I rather like would be for it to morph your weapons into a black/shadowy version of warglaives for the duration of the effect. They already have the art assets so it shouldn’t be *too* hard to implement, it would harken back to a signature rogue weapon, and it’d look really neat. Much nicer than a flicker of shadowy swirls and then a nigh-invisible aura on your hands.
6. Give Shroud of Concealment a better graphic
A featureless white circle with a bit of fog at the edge is not what I think of when I think of the words “shroud” or “concealment”. Could we at least get it in purple? Maybe with a fuzzier edge to make it seem a little more “shadowy” and a little less “placeholder graphic to show where the edge of the effect is?” Better yet, could we have the “sky goes dark” effect from Diablo 2 Cloak of Shadows as well? I mean, the ability has other problems, to be sure, but it seems like the very least they could do is make it look cool.
7. Give Shadow Walk an animation, period.
I have no evidence that Shadow Walk is even implemented. I’ve hit the button a couple of times, and as far as I can tell... nothing happens. Would it be too much to ask for, like, some little shadow swirlies to let you know that you’ve cast something? As a bare minimum they could use what is currently the Shadow Blades cast animation (assuming they give Shadow Blades a proper animation as previously suggested), and I’m sure there are better options out there that wouldn’t be too hard to implement. I’m not asking for fancy here. Just something to let you know that the button actually did something when you pressed it.
8. Let Mutilate and Backstab start autoattack, even if you’re out of energy.
If you have the energy to perform a move, and you attack a target, autoattack starts. What happens if you don’t have enough energy? Well, if you’re using, say, Hemo, autoattack starts anyway. If you’re using Backstab or Mutilate, it doesn’t. Why? Who knows. I mean, its not like we can’t fix this with startattack macros, but it seems to me that having consistent behavior in such matters is the sort of polish that the class is missing right now.
9. Make Expose Armor Free
Warrior and druid tanks apply the armor debuff just by being tanks. Feral Druids can apply it for free as well (it costs mana, but like that matters in cat form). Warriors have a glyph to make it free. And rogues... have to pay 25 energy every 30 seconds. Thus, we are clearly and unequivocally the worst source of it. Why? All it means is that we’re punished unnecessarily in those rare cases when we do have to apply it. I see no reason why we shouldn’t be able to pay for it only in GCDs and attention, like all other DPSers who can provide the buff do.
10. Can we have Deadly Brew back? Please?
Like the previous point: rogues are rarely, if ever, going to be the best choice to snare stuff in raids. However, in those cases where we *are* called on to do so, it would be nice if we didn’t have to redo our spec and drop valuable utility (speccing out of Leeching and/or Paralytic Poison) to provide Crippling. If it were a PvP balance issue I could understand it - but they specifically put in on the PvP set so *only* PvP rogues will have it, and PvE rogues *never* will. How does that make sense? Move it back to talents. Make it a class ability. Do *something*. The current arrangement just makes no sense.
Total Comments 12
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In agreement with every single change suggested above. I would like to emphasize the blade flurry problem, which is going to destroy my enjoyment of mists like it made t12 and t13 much less fun.
I HATE being forced into Combat spec (and there are several fights in T14 which clearly will do exactly that). Please please please fix it soon. |
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Yep, a pretty solid summary on why I'm considering rerolling after 3 expansions of raiding as a rogue.
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Updated 09/04/12 at 5:22 AM by Zujamar |
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Combat is my favorite spec, and I still agree with every point here.
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Feint, especially with Elusiveness, just makes such little sense to me now. Originally it was just a threat reducer (and a bad one) but that made sense even if it was terrible. Then it was this neat ability for a rogue to somehow mitigate AoE if timed correctly (due to the duration and cooldown)- in my head I'll pretend we're so agile we can manage to deflect some of that damage or something. But now? Now we sacrifice energy (and thus damage) to gain a relatively enormous "rogue shield wall" for as long as we want? This feels like they put it on the wrong class.
I made a lengthy post on the Beta feedback forums roughly two weeks ago about the spec balance nightmare that is Blade Flurry. I was really hoping to at least see some sort of response that would help me understand how they think they haven't designed themselves into a corner here. Encounter design and spec choice are now tied together so tightly that it doesn't even matter what the class designers do if we get a good old-fashioned cleave fight. In that post I even suggested making flurry a class ability, so I'm 100% in agreement there. The rest of the ideas I either agree with (Deadly Brew, Expose, FoK, Tricks) or I'm ambivalent on (the graphical changes). Not a big change, but as Assassination I'd really like to see Dispatch have the ability to proc Blindside (possibly with a "can't proc from a Blindside-Dispatch" to prevent chaining). Or at least some change to Dispatch. Without the randomness of Blindside and with a Dispatch rotation providing even slower CP generation than a Mutilate rotation, our "Execute" phase just feels boring, which seems counterintuitive. |
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I have thought the blade flurry change should've happened in cataclysm and the shadow blades animation instantly disappointed me on beta. Rogues, for being such a classic archetype, have been left severely bland. Especially hurtful after Warlocks got so much love and monks got all-new animations.
Amen to your suggestions. Also: was I meant to be thinking of Sharingan when you brought up Copycat? |
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I had no particular reference in mind for Copycat. My point is merely that the ability to duplicate the abilities of allies is a very rogue-ish thing to do in the Jack-of-all-Trades tradition, and it definitely would have been a more fun and interesting ability that anything we've gotten... ever, really.
That said, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that people can come up with literary references for such an ability - as I say, I think it ties rather intuitively into the rogue archetype. |
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While I agree with the sentiment that all 3 rogue specs should have some reasonable capacity to cleave (no I don't count VW/Rupture multidot as a reasonable cleave), I'm not sure every spec should have Blade Flurry. I think the three specs should each have a different solution for the cleave problem.
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Ideally, yes; if I were writing the "how things ought to be" article (and I may yet do that) I'd definitely favor that approach. However, this article is written towards changes Blizzard could still reasonably make in time for launch, and I think it unlikely that they'd be willing or able to invent, balance, and test two new cleave abilities within the next 3 weeks. So under the constraints of the article, I think more BF for more people is the better option. But yes, its hardly the ideal solution.
That said, another approach worth considering would be to make a tier of talents the "improved AoE" tier. Give rogues the choice between three different cleave or AoE type abilities - i.e., you can have Blade Flurry, or Crimson Tempest, or some third AoE ability, each with their own strengths and weaknesses, and you could pick which one was the best fit for the fights you were currently doing. I'm not sure how that would play out in practice relative to giving each class a distinctively different cleave, but I definitely prefer it to "BF for everyone" and certainly to "everyone spec Combat for cleave fights". |
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1- I find tricks to be one of our coolest moves. If tricks worked like this:
-> Each second, it checks how much damage your target did in the last second, X. -> At the end of that second, YOU gain a buff, and your next attack does 0.15 * X damage -> So you get six of these buffs and all fire off pretty much instantly Then I think most rogues would be all about it, because the damage would be properly recorded as theirs. Or, if the author of recount figured out some way to make it show up as YOUR damage instead. Or even if Trick or Treat could announce at the end of the fight the total tricks damage. I do agree that it's a bit odd for such a short cooldown move, and the gain by making several macroes and putting it where it makes the most since is minimal. But it really is a move that is rogue damage. My ACTUAL gripe here is the fact that we have fallen back to a world where classes bring special buffs. Tricks was made in a world where no one was a special flower, and the few that vaguely sort of were (heroism) were viewed as issues to be addressed by the devs. So because of this, it was (IMO) easy to justify in its weakness- of course it wasn't going to be amazing, no one brings those sorts of amazing things, and so this is just pretty exceptional for the use of a small amount of energy and a global. But now suddenly skull banner stormlash totem whoa what? Where did THAT come from? Previously the only thing left like that was shattering throw, and it seemed mostly left over. I'd like a version of THAT stuff, thanks! I mean, we're barely outside of the comment where they were sad that no 10m guilds had rogues, because rogues brought nothing, and they said that they wanted us to be brought for poisons? And then they took away the one poison that actually did anything remotely special? Anyway, I like tricks, and I like the game of boosting people's damage at the right time (and on both deathwing fights it wasn't just use-on-cooldown), and I really like looking over our logs, finding spots of people doing 100k damage, and being like, ok man, what were you doing there? I'd like to tricks that, but I can't sit on tricks, can we make this happen? I'd be sad to lose that. 2- I'd prefer additional, alternate, powers for the other specs- and maybe not just cleave. Long ago someone suggested a "poison link" effect for muti, which wouldn't chase blade flurry with two targets, but would with four, or something. It also isn't as if sweeping strikes is available to fury, or howling blast to unholy, either. I guess I kind of like blade flurry being spec specific, but if you talk them into wildly buffing I won't complain. I just think right now the only spec that kind of hurts for an identity, a thing it's really good at, is sub- muti has an execute, at least (on that note, I think it would be better if we were balanced around getting blindsides off of dispatches we pay energy for- I think that our execute isn't going to be that different from our main phase). 3, 8- These are, as you point out, obvious bugs, and I hope they fix them soon. Another bug is either the inability to eat and then stealth depending on your first tier talent choices, or the ABILITY to eat and then stealth depending on your first tier talent choices PLUS the ability to eat/drink and then prowl. 4- I still disagree as I did back then, but in fairness, I'm a super fan of elusiveness. I should be using it properly in pvp within another week of battlegrounds. We even spin around to do it! It's pretty glorious. 5, 7- I kinda like the shadow blades animation, but your ideas here are great. I do agree we are consistently shafted on animations. 6- Disagree, but only because how generous an area we can stealth. I was on an alt and saw a rogue using this, and ran my happy ass right in there just as a bunch of ranged were about start on me- I wasn't in combat yet, so I was able to make use of those moments to get a better position. Why did he have it active midfield in warsong? I don't know, but it was nice. It would have been distracting if it was all colored and stuff- it's a HUGE area, remember! 9- While our new model is better than the old, it always seems to be behind the times. Now FF is all three stacks at once, and if they talent it it's a snare (good for kiting rogues!). If we want to use this move, we pretty much want to glyph it. Blizzard has said before they are ok with different classes having different ways of applying the same debuff/buff, which basically means no one there agrees with us. I honestly thought they would just have added a fraction of an eviscerate as damage to the finisher- as it is, it still has use. For instance, say you are low on energy, and want to do a long stun (rvs + ks) to a target- EA can get you that combo point the cheapest. If you were on, say, a fight like Freya, you might build up S+D combo points with EA, because damage to her doesn't matter and you can bring more energy to bear on other enemies when they spawn, etc. EA is a niche move, but it does have some cool uses that we will get to enjoy figuring out. 10- While I'm happy to see this appear on a set bonus (that I can't get yet), I wouldn't be opposed to it baseline- it would just largely eliminate any reason to ever use cripple. Given how easy it is to swap poisons mid combat compared to history, I just see this as "I want to pick leeching and never anything else, done". I think our poisons are already balanced on enough of an awkward situation that Blizzard doesn't want to mess with them (you ever gonna bring wound to a fight? How useful has mind numbing been this last expacGAME. Make this a talent, and every pvp rogue needs it (and every pve rogue takes it because it actually does something). Make this a glyph, and it's way too good of a glyph. As a pvp set bonus it's looking just fine, but that leaves pve rogues having to poison swap away their leeching to do snares. Make it baseline and crippling poison is unused, which is sadface. Sorry to disagree on so many of your points! I don't come here to be contrarian, honest! |
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I had never noticed that Mutilate and Backstab do not start auto attacks, but I guess I wouldn't since I always have the startattack macro added anyway.
Blade Flurry, or a similar ability, would be great for Assassination. I have always enjoyed playing Assassination over the other specs but unfortunately was pressured into combat for Dragon Soul. It would be great in MoP if the spec I played was dependent upon what I enjoy more as opposed to which one was more suited for a specific encounter. I know there will always be differences between the specs(that's kinda the point) but a cleave being offered to only one spec literally forces you to play that spec on all cleave heavy fights. I would love to see these changes. |
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I'll add a bit to the poison thing:
I think that the poisons are at odds with the current design. I think poisons SHOULD be special-snowflake buffs, to keep their worth. Blizzard seems to think similarly, as you can observe with the shiv effect. Now that crippling doesn't offer 70% except on a shiv (which could very well be changed to a leg-strike 70% move), maybe it's time for crippling to get out or just attach a 50% snare to every poison, and other poisons to get in. Maybe there need to be more poisons like paralytic and mind numbing. But it's hard to come up with anything that would be fair, you know? If one of us had come up with paralytic and put it on the forums (I know it's based on mobs in that outland swamp, but you know what I mean), then you'd probably see a mile of pvp QQ, and some multiglad would come in and tell us we don't understand because we aren't the 0.5%, or whatever, and he'd actually be the best qualified guy in the thread. Instead, Blizzard just had to make it and implement it, and we'll start to see it used at 90 in pvp once we have our set bonus. |
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I feel like saying that PvE rogues can't have Deadly Brew "because then there would be no reason to use crippling", misses the point. So what if there is no use for Crippling? Redesign it or remove it. We're talking about a niche utility that would be nice for rogues to have in PvE and would harm nothing in game balance. Given that the class is already hurting for utility removing some that we once had makes no sense, especially for what amounts to basically sentimental feelings about Crippling Poison.
The answer to "we always will choose Leeching" is to give us meaningful PvE poisons to choose from, and design encounters where we will want to use them. Not to continue to remove fun and interesting talents. If DB was the only talent we would have taken on it's tier, then the problem was the other talents in the tier sucked. We should be choosing between powerful abilities. Removing DB was a lazy decision. What they needed to do was buff or redesign the other two abilities in order for them to compete with DB. Instead they just made the entire tier even more boring. Poisons need to either be their own tier on the talent tree, or not in the talent tree at all, so as to not cause the two things to stomp on each other. Needing to provide a snare should not force me into choosing Elusiveness when I don't want to use it. If you think about it the Poisons system is a simplified version of the talent trees already. We essentially have two more "tiers" of talents that don't cost us gold to swap around. But the current design causes the two systems to conflict with each other. |
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Recent Blog Entries by Aldriana
- Ten Things Blizzard Should Change About Rogues Before Mists (08/30/12)
- Mists Beta Thoughts: Feint (03/29/12)
- 5.0 Talents (11/13/11)
- On Monks (10/25/11)
- Fixing Rogues, Part 5: Filler (09/24/11)
