Sunwell Plateau - Ideologically?
Posted 03/27/08 at 7:10 PM by Kytrarewn
To save you a trip to Wowjutsu or Armory, I'm in a guild that's on a small server. 4/5;4/9, and has been there for more than a month.
We hear about Sunwell from guilds that had been farming illidan for 7-8 months now, and even those with retarded numbers of warglaives and DPS are ostensibly having trouble with the enrage timers on certain encounters (Blood Legion).
At this point, even if we were to defeat Illidan and Archimonde tonight, I'd be hard-pressed to say that we will ever so much as kill Kalecgos, let alone later encounters.
This seems to fly in the face of Blizzard's "Naxx was a mistake, not enough people saw the instance, especially the end-bosses" (paraphrased) apology.
Now, this is to be the pinnacle of TBC raiding. I get it. I understand that, and I understand that it'd be a huge letdown if it were a one-week clear for the top guilds in the game. And my big complaint about TBC in-general has been the lack of encounters of the C'thun variety, that actually require more than 2 days learning (with the exceptions of, so far, Vashj, Kael, Archimonde), so I definitely empathize with the high end raiders here.
But to be able to say, conclusively, that you will never kill the second boss in the instance before the expansion, as a reasonably-progressed guild? That just seems, somehow, off?
I feel selfish for even bringing this up, when i've got plenty of new late-T6 content to work on anyway, but I'm sure other people have had this thought.
Feel free to opine below.
We hear about Sunwell from guilds that had been farming illidan for 7-8 months now, and even those with retarded numbers of warglaives and DPS are ostensibly having trouble with the enrage timers on certain encounters (Blood Legion).
At this point, even if we were to defeat Illidan and Archimonde tonight, I'd be hard-pressed to say that we will ever so much as kill Kalecgos, let alone later encounters.
This seems to fly in the face of Blizzard's "Naxx was a mistake, not enough people saw the instance, especially the end-bosses" (paraphrased) apology.
Now, this is to be the pinnacle of TBC raiding. I get it. I understand that, and I understand that it'd be a huge letdown if it were a one-week clear for the top guilds in the game. And my big complaint about TBC in-general has been the lack of encounters of the C'thun variety, that actually require more than 2 days learning (with the exceptions of, so far, Vashj, Kael, Archimonde), so I definitely empathize with the high end raiders here.
But to be able to say, conclusively, that you will never kill the second boss in the instance before the expansion, as a reasonably-progressed guild? That just seems, somehow, off?
I feel selfish for even bringing this up, when i've got plenty of new late-T6 content to work on anyway, but I'm sure other people have had this thought.
Feel free to opine below.
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Stuff gets easier with time, not just because Blizzard nerfs it, but because the ambient understanding of the encounter grows.
Kalecgos is going to seem a lot easier four months from now because we're gonna know what's needed to kill him, there'll be strats out there, and so on. Also... initial assumptions tend to be wrong. Fights feel easier when you know what to expect. |
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Once Kil'Jaden goes down they will start scaling down the -20% dodge +5% hit buff that all the mobs have (aka your tanks get -25% avoidance), as they do that, healing will get easier, you will be able to bring more DPS, more badge rewards will be out, Sun Mote crafted gear will be available to the masses, guilds will have more trash drops, Raid DPS will go up and more guilds will be able to kill him.
Blizzard made the mistake of making T6 too easy to start with and even after making it harder it wasn't "hard". But then again, what is "hard", these days... maybe that is a blog in and of itself. The only truly hard fight so far has been 4 Horsemen which was completely unchanged and when unkill for around a month or more and that was just raid stacking. C'Thun wasn't hard, just unkillable. A fight can only be so hard, you can either do it or you can't, and if you have a guild of 25 people who don't screw up, you will kill it within 5-10 hours or work. Out of over 200 wipes since Sunwell came out, I can count on 1-2 hands how many we said "Damn, we couldn't do anything about that", the other 190+ it was personal failure that shouldn't have happened. Most people simply consider retard check fights hard, because that is where lower ranked guilds fail. My guess is a similar number of guilds will be working on Kil'Jaden to those that have killed Illidan by the time WotLK drops, but a guild that is still 4/5, 4/9 has way too many fundamental issues to realistically have a shot, if you haven't killed Illidan by now there is a reason, and Sunwell will highlight that reason and club you over the head with it mercilessly. |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanos
My guess is a similar number of guilds will be working on Kil'Jaden to those that have killed Illidan by the time WotLK drops, but a guild that is still 4/5, 4/9 has way too many fundamental issues to realistically have a shot, if you haven't killed Illidan by now there is a reason, and Sunwell will highlight that reason and club you over the head with it mercilessly.
As such, it still falls into the same "Naxx Mistake" category, where not enough people were able to experience the latter fights. Horsemen, Sapph, KT... I understand your point entirely, I'm just not sure how I feel about it in general. |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanos
Out of over 200 wipes since Sunwell came out, I can count on 1-2 hands how many we said "Damn, we couldn't do anything about that", the other 190+ it was personal failure that shouldn't have happened.
Most people simply consider retard check fights hard, because that is where lower ranked guilds fail. Surely the fact that not everyone is actually capable of doing the same thing identifies to you that there is a degree of skill, and therefore a degree of "hardness" involved. The harder the fight, the more of those "personal failures that shouldn't have happened" will occur. It's impossible to play 100% perfect every single time. "Hardness" is the measure of how much perfection you actually need to beat the encounter. |
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4/5 4/9 is very different from a guild working on Thaddius/Gothik, at least in my opinion. First off working on Thaddius implies that you made it past some of the major gear checks, and there really aren't any gear checks in T6 once you got over the "stack more then 9k hps for High Warlord". Also, there were probably less then 100 guilds in the US that killed Kel'Thuzad before TBC hit, there were over 700 guilds in the US that killed Illidan before Sunwell hit (that is probably more then kill C'Thun as well).
So in terms of relative progression I would say 4/5 4/9 pre Sunwell is equivalent to farming Anub and Instructor, just look at how many guilds that couldn't kill Kael are already 4/5 4/9 2 weeks after the keying was removed. As far as what do I consider "Hard" see my blog, I tried to discuss it there. |
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Fine, 4/5;5/9. Happy now?
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Updated 04/08/08 at 5:15 AM by Kytrarewn |
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Quote:
Now, this is to be the pinnacle of TBC raiding. I get it. I understand that, and I understand that it'd be a huge letdown if it were a one-week clear for the top guilds in the game. And my big complaint about TBC in-general has been the lack of encounters of the C'thun variety, that actually require more than 2 days learning (with the exceptions of, so far, Vashj, Kael, Archimonde), so I definitely empathize with the high end raiders here.
Edit: Sorry, new to posting on this site and not sure how to say who the quote is of, buts it is from OP's post. |
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