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I'm a Gaymer and it doesn't offend me.

Posted 04/01/09 at 2:52 AM by Zoid
I've been out as gay in the online community for several years now. One of the common questions I get when people find out I am gay is how I feel about how often gaming communities use derogatory terms such as "gay" and "fag." The general answer is that it depends on context.

Words can be powerful things, but they are just expressions of intent by the person who said or typed them. I feel that a lot of times when people say "gay" or "fag" in a gaming context, their intent isn't to insult gay people, but more to reuse a pejorative word they've already heard in that context. It may have also developed from personal stigmas for certain curse words; i.e., my mom says I can't say "fuck" but I can say "fag" and she won't get as mad.

Interestingly, I've also run across occurances of racism in online games. I've heard people using the terms "nigger" and "spic" in games. Racism seems to be just as much of an issue as homophobia. It seems there's a general desire to be as offensive as possible to some other anonymous person when they are either defeating you or doing something else to ruin your online game experience. My guess is that people who generally find racism distasteful in their daily lives wouldn't use a racial epithet such as "nigger" when playing online, but may not think too much of using "fag" as they may not have had such a personal social stigma about intolerance towards homosexuality.

I think that a major part of the explanation for the use of such offensive epithets is Penny Arcade's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory. Basically, the anonymity of the internet-- and of online games in particular—lets people escape from the usual social conventions for saying things in a normal public context that would be considered rude. They can say "fag" online because no one is going to cause a social scene because of it.



Unfortunately, I think games like Halo can be breeding grounds for this sort of behavior. There is very little punishment for offenses so if you play a lot online and keep hearing your opponents calling you a "fag" or "nigger" its not hard to start using those words yourself when you want to berate them. This can be a larger issue for younger players online who encounter such offensive language and don’t have the knowledge of how offensive it is. I know of kids these days that have never encountered much racism in their daily lives, and thus don't really understand how offensive a word such as "nigger" is. I think that also extends to homophobia, but there may be reinforcement of homophobia from direct social interaction--kids are still using the word "fag" in schools whereas most racial name calling has been curbed due to social progress.

When people interact with me online and accidentally call something "gay" before realizing I can hear them, they sometimes apologize to me without being asked. I appreciate the thought, since these people are a bit more sensitive to the feelings of others, but it’s not entirely necessary. I usually know that the intent behind the epithet wasn’t meant as an offense, but was just something they heard and are repeating in a pejorative context.

Calling something "gay" doesn't really bother me personally. My reasoning is based on the word’s etymology . Gay, of course, was originally a word that meant "carefree" or "happy" and became commonly associated with homosexuality in the early 20th century. I'm not that upset if people are calling something "happy" when they exclaim "That's gay!" in an online game.

The word "fag" on the other hand does bother me somewhat. There is some debate on the word's origin, but in all cases it’s clearly meant solely as a pejorative term.

Homophobia is really one of the last permissible prejudices. I think that’s a part of why people use these terms in semi-anonymous contexts. It's not okay to be a racist anymore, but you can still hate the gays! There has been an enormous amount of social change with respect to homosexuality-- even in just the last few years. But a lot of discrimination still occurs based on sexuality. We're only now starting to see laws passed that include sexual orientation as something that cannot be discriminated against in the workplace and other social areas.

I think as our society advances and homosexuality becomes a more commonly accepted social norm, we'll start to see a reduction in homophobic epithets online.

But there's always going to be that fuckwad who will say anything to offend you.
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Comments

Old
Freddie's Avatar
'Fag' is also a mostly British word for a cigarette.

Also this blog post was kinda gay.
Posted 04/01/09 at 2:55 AM by Freddie Freddie is offline
Old
I think if you are offended by a word on the internet that isn't actually being directed towards you that you are being a little uptight.
Posted 04/01/09 at 4:20 AM by Dollar Dollar is offline
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s4dfish's Avatar
As expected, great post Zoid. As a professional in the industry do you see homophobia as more or less prevalent in the industry than in the population as a whole? I've always been curious as games seem to have a more 'old-fashioned' concept of gender roles.
Posted 04/01/09 at 11:03 AM by s4dfish s4dfish is offline
Old
Jameson's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dollar
I think if you are offended by a word on the internet that isn't actually being directed towards you that you are being a little uptight.
Don't be a douchebag, you can't write it off as people being uptight or overly sensitive. Imagine your government treated you as a second class citizen and said that you didn't have the same rights as everyone else. Then, everyone around you takes a derogatory name for your lifestyle like "fag" and uses it to insult other people. That's not fun.

As Zoid said, it's just Internet Fuckwad Theory. People use these words because it's easy and taboo in the "real world". Obviously, they don't speak this way at work. At some point, I guess you just have to get over it because it's unavoidable on the internet, which is sad...but that doesn't make it right.
Posted 04/01/09 at 11:54 AM by Jameson Jameson is offline
Old
Zoid's Avatar
I don't think its more present in just games, but the internet in general because of the perceived anonymity.
Posted 04/01/09 at 1:23 PM by Zoid Zoid is offline
Old
Malan's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dollar
I think if you are offended by a word on the internet that isn't actually being directed towards you that you are being a little uptight.
So by that I guess I should be able to stand in front of you and your mother and call your mother a whore all day long right? And you shouldn't be the least bit offended since it's not directed at you. I mean that's some fantastic reasoning you've got going on there. "It's cool guys, it's just the internet! Nothing bad ever came from calling people names on the internet!"
Posted 04/01/09 at 7:34 PM by Malan Malan is offline
Updated 04/01/09 at 7:39 PM by Malan
Old
nikoa's Avatar
Having gay friends I understand your point, but I think part of the issue is people try so much to be P.C that there has been a new theme of being unP.C on purpose.

Having being in guilds that use such language I came to realize that the context that those words are used is different and often not meant to have the same derogatory power.

In any language, words change meaning. As you mentioned, "gay" was used as a word that described a happy person, that became a word to describe sexual preference which has now become a word to describe something stupid or lame.

A logical step would be, does that mean that people feel that gay people are stupid or lame? Well that is probably the equivalent of making an association between happy people being stupid.
Posted 04/01/09 at 8:21 PM by nikoa nikoa is offline
Old
Quote:
So by that I guess I should be able to stand in front of you and your mother and call your mother a whore all day long right? And you shouldn't be the least bit offended since it's not directed at you. I mean that's some fantastic reasoning you've got going on there. "It's cool guys, it's just the internet! Nothing bad ever came from calling people names on the internet!"
Did you read my post? I said:
"I think if you are offended by a word on the internet that isn't actually being directed towards you that you are being a little uptight."

Obviously if you're calling my mother a whore that is directed towards me. I'm saying, if someone says something like "That faggot just ganked me!" that it is a little uptight to be offended. It's completely different if someone knows that you are gay and is calling you a faggot to try to be derogatory.

Quote:
Don't be a douchebag, you can't write it off as people being uptight or overly sensitive. Imagine your government treated you as a second class citizen and said that you didn't have the same rights as everyone else. Then, everyone around you takes a derogatory name for your lifestyle like "fag" and uses it to insult other people. That's not fun.
I'm not being a douchebag and it's completely different. If my goverment treated me as a second class citizen and said that I didn't have the same rights it's not exactly the same thing as the above situation, is it?

You really have to take things much less seriously on the internet. For example, around where I live saying nigger is looked down upon, even by white people. But if I here the word nigger on the internet I really don't think much of it. Whether this is right or not is up for debate but for right now that's how things are.
Posted 04/02/09 at 2:10 AM by Dollar Dollar is offline
Old
Wraithlin's Avatar
Quote:
You really have to take things much less seriously on the internet. For example, around where I live saying nigger is looked down upon, even by white people. But if I here the word nigger on the internet I really don't think much of it. Whether this is right or not is up for debate but for right now that's how things are.
This was Zoids point, you appear to have missed it.
Posted 04/02/09 at 3:28 AM by Wraithlin Wraithlin is online now
Old
Raienna's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dollar
Blah blah blah I'm a fuckwad blah blah blah
That's about all I'm getting from your posts.
Posted 04/02/09 at 4:04 AM by Raienna Raienna is online now
Old
zeidrich's Avatar
Quote:
Whether this is right or not is up for debate but for right now that's how things are.
What a great reason to advocate against change.
Posted 04/02/09 at 10:23 AM by zeidrich zeidrich is offline
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Apate's Avatar
Quote:
I'm not being a douchebag and it's completely different.
Merely saying this doesn't make it true.
Posted 04/02/09 at 2:34 PM by Apate Apate is offline
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Daler's Avatar
Quote:
Obviously if you're calling my mother a whore that is directed towards me.
Actually, it was directed directly to the whore in question. You just happened to be within earshot.
Posted 04/02/09 at 2:44 PM by Daler Daler is offline
Old
To point out the obvious for dollar:
Quote:
If my goverment treated me as a second class citizen and said that I didn't have the same rights it's not exactly the same thing as the above situation, is it?
Actually it is because the US government does treat gays as second class citizens by not allowing them to legally marry and in many states making homosexual intercourse illegal (not that it's really enforced but still).

On topic, I find it funny/sad that at some point, I must assume that other gamers did not phrase the question
Quote:
how I feel about how often gaming communities use derogatory terms such as 'gay' and 'fag.'
but rather that at some point someone said "oh hey, you don't mind that I say fag a lot do you?" I find it sad that s/he had to ask, and funny because what else to do but laugh? People know it's wrong, they know it's offensive, but they still want to get away with it.

I won't pretend to take the moral high road and say I never say fag or gay, or even defend my use as better or less than others, but I do think it's pretty messed up that we have these terms that are completely offensive to a whole group of people and really are socially acceptable. Sure, not in polite society, but like in Zoid's example with his mother where fag is a more acceptable word than fuck. What group does "fuck" offend? Virgins?

The fact is of course, plenty of insults started out as offensive to a group of people (i.e. dumb, lame). However these words no longer have any association with their roots in common usage. So it would appear that either over time "fag" would either need to be considered as offensive as "nigger" or as inoffensive as "dumb" and have no ties to homosexuality in its use.
Posted 04/02/09 at 6:33 PM by Feyna Feyna is offline
Updated 04/02/09 at 6:39 PM by Feyna
Old
Great Post. Seriously a lot of people are hateful and due to the anon status this increases there backlash. Wrong is wrong whether someone says it in person or online.

As to the comment about being uptight, it has nothing to do with it. Be no different if someone came at you and chastised you on something that was dear to you. For me as a miniroity player, it gets old. Granted I'm not going to go look for this person, but what it does is it sets up kids to learn this behavior for the worst.
Posted 04/03/09 at 9:09 AM by frostybroc frostybroc is offline
Old
Birdemani's Avatar
Quote:
As to the comment about being uptight, it has nothing to do with it.
Largely it's directly connected to maturity and it's evident when you hear that person open their mouth and try to rationalize anything.
Posted 04/03/09 at 10:38 AM by Birdemani Birdemani is offline
Old
Quote:
This was Zoids point, you appear to have missed it.
I got and understood that part of his post. The only part I disagreed with is the part where he said that the word "fag" automatically offended him even if not directed towards him. My point was that nothing on the internet, least of all words, should really offend you when not directed towards you.

Quote:
That's about all I'm getting from your posts.
I'm not sure if you're serious but if you are congratulations on not even attempting to respond intelligently. Honestly I'm seeing so much "reverse discrimination" ITT it's astounding. As soon as I say that I think the OP shouldn't be offended by the word fag on the internet I get jumped on. Believe it or not I'm an advocate of gay rights and I think the way most people choose gays as the object of their hate disgusting. Try to actually understand my post before randomly deciding I'm a fuckwad.

Quote:
What a great reason to advocate against change.
Way to take that sentence completely out of context. If you ever actually think you can get people on the internet to adhere to rules regarding profanity of all things I think you are delusional. People will say offensive words on the internet until the end of time, it won't change.

Quote:
Actually, it was directed directly to the whore in question. You just happened to be within earshot.
You're arguing semantics now. Obviously if someone is saying to me "Your mother is a whore." they are trying to insult me. If for example I'm in a group with the OP and I say "Wow that guy just ganked me, what a fag!" you wouldn't say that I'm insulting the OP, even if I do know hes gay.

Quote:
Actually it is because the US government does treat gays as second class citizens by not allowing them to legally marry and in many states making homosexual intercourse illegal (not that it's really enforced but still).
When I said above situation I was talking about the above situation in my post. Sorry I should have made that more clear.

I'm not quite sure how people interpreted my post but what I was trying to say is that it's pointless to be offended by simply a word on the internet. I don't hate gay people, I agree that they are discriminated against unfairly and that it's retarded. I just don't think that a word not directed at you specifically shouldn't really offend anyone, on the internet.
Posted 04/03/09 at 11:30 PM by Dollar Dollar is offline
Old
Malan's Avatar
Hear that? That's the sound of you digging the hole deeper.
Posted 04/04/09 at 9:05 AM by Malan Malan is offline
Old
Quote:
Hear that? That's the sound of you digging the hole deeper.
It's a good thing we're on the internet and I can live with myself for having a different opinion than the majority. Especially when the majority's argument mostly consists of "you're a douchebag" "you're a fuckwad." Thanks to everyone who actually read my post and responded to it in something longer than a sentence insult.
Posted 04/04/09 at 2:44 PM by Dollar Dollar is offline
Old
Adoriele's Avatar
The major problem I have with people who think there's a difference between being on the internet and being in real life is that being on the internet brings out the person your really are, the one who you would be without any social contracts, because that's what the internet is, a place with very few social contracts. So when you come in here spouting off your mouth about how you think someone on the internet shouldn't be offended, you're really saying that you think it's perfectly okay in the real world, you're just scared of the backlash you'd receive.

So the way I see it, you have one of two options. Shut the fuck up now, because you're obviously in a place where more social contracts are in force than you're used to, or man up, grow some balls, and go call someone a queer in San Francisco. Please don't report back to us, because we really couldn't care less about your crusade to make the internet a worse place to hang out.

Oh, and for the record, Malan used two sentences to insult you.
Posted 04/04/09 at 3:59 PM by Adoriele Adoriele is offline
Old
Malan's Avatar
Technically 5 sentences if you count the original reply!
Posted 04/04/09 at 4:46 PM by Malan Malan is offline
Old
Quote:
The major problem I have with people who think there's a difference between being on the internet and being in real life is that being on the internet brings out the person your really are, the one who you would be without any social contracts, because that's what the internet is, a place with very few social contracts. So when you come in here spouting off your mouth about how you think someone on the internet shouldn't be offended, you're really saying that you think it's perfectly okay in the real world, you're just scared of the backlash you'd receive.

So the way I see it, you have one of two options. Shut the fuck up now, because you're obviously in a place where more social contracts are in force than you're used to, or man up, grow some balls, and go call someone a queer in San Francisco. Please don't report back to us, because we really couldn't care less about your crusade to make the internet a worse place to hang out.

Oh, and for the record, Malan used two sentences to insult you.
I'm not saying I enjoy the way the internet is a cesspool of profanity etc. I'm saying that the internet isn't real life and the same social conventions don't apply. I'm sorry you think that the internet is ever going to be anything like real life because that's about all I got from your post. This is what happens when you don't lighten up before you open up a web browser because it's not the same thing as real life.



Edit: I think the intent of my posts here have been pretty misinterpreted. Basically what I am trying to say is on the internet people are going to use words like fag even when not specifically trying to insult you. People are going to say what a fag on the internet like people in real life might say what a jerk. I'm trying to say that I don't think there is any reason for anybody to get offended by something used in that context. Obviously if someone is saying "you are a fag" you have every right to be offended. But if someone says "damn, that fag just ganked me" there is no reason to be offended because the internet will always ben a profane, vulgar place. Obviously it's not ideal, I never said that I enjoyed the way things are. But it's not going to change, ever, and you'll probably be much happier if you learn to ignore words that are typically much more offensive in real life.

I do not hate gay people. I have several gay co works and I really couldn't give a shit whether you're gay or straight anyways. I feel that it's a pretty much universal truth that you're going to be happier in your endeavors on the internet if you grow a thicker skin towards words that are traditionally offensive.
Posted 04/05/09 at 12:05 AM by Dollar Dollar is offline
Updated 04/05/09 at 12:25 AM by Dollar
Old
Malan's Avatar
Again, the people who differentiate between the internet and a face to face conversation are the ones who are too scared to say the same shit for fear of getting their ass kicked.
Posted 04/05/09 at 12:08 AM by Malan Malan is offline
Old
Quote:
Again, the people who differentiate between the internet and a face to face conversation are the ones who are too scared to say the same shit for fear of getting their ass kicked.
I couldn't agree with you more. But that's the way it is on 95% of the internet and unless you want to refuse to communicate with 95% of the people you meet you're going to much better of if you can ignore the fact that they are using words that would normally be offensive to you.
Posted 04/05/09 at 12:27 AM by Dollar Dollar is offline
Old
Bass's Avatar
So what you're saying is that you agree with Zoid.
Quote:
The general answer is that it depends on context. [...] When people interact with me online and accidentally call something "gay" before realizing I can hear them, they sometimes apologize to me without being asked. I appreciate the thought, since these people are a bit more sensitive to the feelings of others, but it’s not entirely necessary. I usually know that the intent behind the epithet wasn’t meant as an offense, but was just something they heard and are repeating in a pejorative context.
In which case, your angry tirade was sort of pointless, now wasn't it?

I agree that you have to have a certain threshold of acceptance in order to communicate in certain social circles. However, that doesn't really give you the right to tell people they should not be offended by certain things. You've been defending the fact that the words "fag", "gay", "nigger", etc. are overused on the internet as if it is a situation that does not warrant any sort of corrective action. If we extend this line of logic, that is sort of like saying that racism "just happens" and therefore you shouldn't be offended by it. Additionally, not being able to marry the person you love because they happen to be the same sex as you. Tough luck, I guess. That sort of shit happens, why should we bother changing it? It won't happen. Man up, right?

If only MLK had listened to your wizened advice.

In conclusion, you should stop posting.
Posted 04/05/09 at 3:16 PM by Bass Bass is offline
 
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