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I'm a Gaymer and it doesn't offend me.

Posted 04/01/09 at 2:52 AM by Zoid
I've been out as gay in the online community for several years now. One of the common questions I get when people find out I am gay is how I feel about how often gaming communities use derogatory terms such as "gay" and "fag." The general answer is that it depends on context.

Words can be powerful things, but they are just expressions of intent by the person who said or typed them. I feel that a lot of times when people say "gay" or "fag" in a gaming context, their intent isn't to insult gay people, but more to reuse a pejorative word they've already heard in that context. It may have also developed from personal stigmas for certain curse words; i.e., my mom says I can't say "fuck" but I can say "fag" and she won't get as mad.

Interestingly, I've also run across occurances of racism in online games. I've heard people using the terms "nigger" and "spic" in games. Racism seems to be just as much of an issue as homophobia. It seems there's a general desire to be as offensive as possible to some other anonymous person when they are either defeating you or doing something else to ruin your online game experience. My guess is that people who generally find racism distasteful in their daily lives wouldn't use a racial epithet such as "nigger" when playing online, but may not think too much of using "fag" as they may not have had such a personal social stigma about intolerance towards homosexuality.

I think that a major part of the explanation for the use of such offensive epithets is Penny Arcade's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory. Basically, the anonymity of the internet-- and of online games in particular—lets people escape from the usual social conventions for saying things in a normal public context that would be considered rude. They can say "fag" online because no one is going to cause a social scene because of it.



Unfortunately, I think games like Halo can be breeding grounds for this sort of behavior. There is very little punishment for offenses so if you play a lot online and keep hearing your opponents calling you a "fag" or "nigger" its not hard to start using those words yourself when you want to berate them. This can be a larger issue for younger players online who encounter such offensive language and don’t have the knowledge of how offensive it is. I know of kids these days that have never encountered much racism in their daily lives, and thus don't really understand how offensive a word such as "nigger" is. I think that also extends to homophobia, but there may be reinforcement of homophobia from direct social interaction--kids are still using the word "fag" in schools whereas most racial name calling has been curbed due to social progress.

When people interact with me online and accidentally call something "gay" before realizing I can hear them, they sometimes apologize to me without being asked. I appreciate the thought, since these people are a bit more sensitive to the feelings of others, but it’s not entirely necessary. I usually know that the intent behind the epithet wasn’t meant as an offense, but was just something they heard and are repeating in a pejorative context.

Calling something "gay" doesn't really bother me personally. My reasoning is based on the word’s etymology . Gay, of course, was originally a word that meant "carefree" or "happy" and became commonly associated with homosexuality in the early 20th century. I'm not that upset if people are calling something "happy" when they exclaim "That's gay!" in an online game.

The word "fag" on the other hand does bother me somewhat. There is some debate on the word's origin, but in all cases it’s clearly meant solely as a pejorative term.

Homophobia is really one of the last permissible prejudices. I think that’s a part of why people use these terms in semi-anonymous contexts. It's not okay to be a racist anymore, but you can still hate the gays! There has been an enormous amount of social change with respect to homosexuality-- even in just the last few years. But a lot of discrimination still occurs based on sexuality. We're only now starting to see laws passed that include sexual orientation as something that cannot be discriminated against in the workplace and other social areas.

I think as our society advances and homosexuality becomes a more commonly accepted social norm, we'll start to see a reduction in homophobic epithets online.

But there's always going to be that fuckwad who will say anything to offend you.
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Old
Quote:
In which case, your angry tirade was sort of pointless, now wasn't it?

I agree that you have to have a certain threshold of acceptance in order to communicate in certain social circles. However, that doesn't really give you the right to tell people they should not be offended by certain things. You've been defending the fact that the words "fag", "gay", "nigger", etc. are overused on the internet as if it is a situation that does not warrant any sort of corrective action. If we extend this line of logic, that is sort of like saying that racism "just happens" and therefore you shouldn't be offended by it. Additionally, not being able to marry the person you love because they happen to be the same sex as you. Tough luck, I guess. That sort of shit happens, why should we bother changing it? It won't happen. Man up, right?

If only MLK had listened to your wizened advice.

In conclusion, you should stop posting.
I'm sorry if any of my posts came across as an "angry tirade" because that certainly wasn't the intent.

Quote:
You've been defending the fact that the words "fag", "gay", "nigger", etc. are overused on the internet as if it is a situation that does not warrant any sort of corrective action.
Yes. You can never hope to change that. And 90% of people that use those terms aren't doing it to offend you, so why be offended by it?

Quote:
If we extend this line of logic, that is sort of like saying that racism "just happens" and therefore you shouldn't be offended by it. Additionally, not being able to marry the person you love because they happen to be the same sex as you. Tough luck, I guess. That sort of shit happens, why should we bother changing it? It won't happen. Man up, right?
No. I am not saying that at all. The internet is a different thing than real life. Stop trying to make it sound like there is no difference, because there is. And also the situation you are describing is completely different than the one I have several times. Try to read what I am saying. If someone knows you are gay and says "Hey, you faggot!" to offend you then you have every right to be offended, even if it is on the internet. If, for example, you're having a discussion with someone about the most annoying heroic bosses and they say "Yeah, Herald Volazj is such a faggot" then you really shouldn't be offended. Chances are this person doesn't care if you are gay. But you are going to run into people that use words like faggot on the internet to describe things like the above. That doesn't mean they are trying to insult you. Now if it's your prerogative to try and change the internet, to get people to stop saying the word faggot, go for it. But you will not succeed. You will more likely be much happier if you realize that it's not meant to offend you.

Now obviously if the same things are happening in real life a different stance should be taken. Because real life is different than the internet. I'd really like it if people would stop comparing me to a Nazi because I don't think you should be offended by the word faggot when heard on the internet in the above context. This is a discussion about using these words on the internet, yes? So stop trying to apply real life situations.

edit:
Quote:
So what you're saying is that you agree with Zoid.
Sorry I didn't see this part. I'm saying I disagree that he is offended by the word faggot in any context. Obviously I can't really convince him to be offended or not to be offended I'm just trying to supply some evidence why being offended is probably not really necessary. Unless you enjoy being offended, I suppose.
Posted 04/05/09 at 4:45 PM by Dollar Dollar is offline
Old
Bass's Avatar
I'm not trying to Godwin you. I really do understand what you're saying. You are saying what Zoid said, that context matters. That's fine. However, you are taking it one step further and telling everyone that this happens all the time, and to be offended by it is silly, and to try to change things is pointless. Good summation?

So, on your "useless to doing anything about it" point: You can get people banned from many online communities by reporting such language to the proper authority. If enough people voice their minds, and if enough people try to change things, it can (and does) happen. Maybe you'd like to throw a few slurs around this forum and see how long you last?

Perhaps you will never completely eliminate the problem, as there will inevitably be a corner of the internet where such slurs are the norm in speech. It can, however, be improved.

On your separation between real life and the internet: It seems that you think the internet is some magical place where the normal rules of morality do not apply. If I were to yell "nigger" at black people on the streets of NY, would that be morally objectionable? I think so. Let's now suppose I put on a ski mask and an impervious energy shield and did the exact same thing. Am I now less objectionable? Nobody can really hurt me in the second scenario. They don't know who I am, and I am impervious to any harm that might come to me. Shouldn't I just go around being a royal asshole?

The answer, by any reasonable code of ethics, is no. However, some people would probably do it anyway. And we couldn't stop them. However, it doesn't change the fact that they are still royal assholes. We can be annoyed or offended by them. We also don't need to put up with their shit. We can deny them entry to places, or kick them out.
Posted 04/05/09 at 9:42 PM by Bass Bass is offline
Old
Quote:
I'm not trying to Godwin you. I really do understand what you're saying. You are saying what Zoid said, that context matters. That's fine. However, you are taking it one step further and telling everyone that this happens all the time, and to be offended by it is silly, and to try to change things is pointless. Good summation?

So, on your "useless to doing anything about it" point: You can get people banned from many online communities by reporting such language to the proper authority. If enough people voice their minds, and if enough people try to change things, it can (and does) happen. Maybe you'd like to throw a few slurs around this forum and see how long you last?
Yes, you're right, I wasn't really considering the more moderated corners of the internet. Sorry for not making that more clear. I was thinking more along the lines of WoW. Yeah you can report someone but no you really can't get banned for it. On a place like EJ I'm all for banning people that use offensive slurs and overly profane language. My general point was that in a place like WoW you're much better off just ignoring the fact that it offends you because in a place like WoW it won't change.

Also I don't think anywhere have I used any offensive slurs or language so I'd appreciate it if you could leave moral jabs at me out of the rest of the discussion as they're really irrelevant and lend nothing to your argument.
Quote:
On your separation between real life and the internet: It seems that you think the internet is some magical place where the normal rules of morality do not apply. If I were to yell "nigger" at black people on the streets of NY, would that be morally objectionable? I think so. Let's now suppose I put on a ski mask and an impervious energy shield and did the exact same thing. Am I now less objectionable? Nobody can really hurt me in the second scenario. They don't know who I am, and I am impervious to any harm that might come to me. Shouldn't I just go around being a royal asshole?
Not at all. Nowhere in any of my posts did I ever advocate being an asshole. But some people are and I'm glad I can ignore the fact that their etiquette is less than perfect and live with it when someone uses words that are normally would offend me. If I forced myself to ignore anybody that used words that normally offend me on the internet I'd probably never be able to log on to WoW. Also the situation you're describing is completely different from any of ones I described as "something you shouldn't really need to be offended by." If someone called me a "fucker", of course I would be offended. If someone said "fuck, I died" no I'm not really offended.
Posted 04/05/09 at 11:43 PM by Dollar Dollar is offline
Old
Bass's Avatar
You can very much get banned in WoW for excessive use of slurs. At the very least, there is a structure in place that discourages the use of slurs. You may be better off ignoring the problem, but it does bother others. And there are means available with which they can correct the issue.

Again, I am not attacking you. I am referring to morality simply because "offensive" is defined as such:
Quote:
of⋅fen⋅sive [uh-fen-siv or, for 4, 5, aw-fen-, of-en-]
–adjective
[...]
3. repugnant to the moral sense
Since when something is offensive it is "repugnant to the moral sense," that means that when one is offended, one's morals have assessed that something is wrong. It is, in fact, key to this issue and far from irrelevant.

I am not sure why you are clinging to the bit about acceptance of the problem - I said in both posts that there are social circles that use slurs, and if one wishes to be a part of them, then one may either be tolerant of slurs or convince the members of the circle to discontinue the use of slurs. In the argument you presented, the latter option is impossible, leaving only the former. In reality, it is not. It may be hard in some cases, and may require more than one individual to voice his opinion. However, it happens often (EJ being a prime example).

You didn't advocate being an asshole. However, your argument is defending people who choose to be assholes. In other words, what I'm getting from you right now is: "I'd prefer it if some people weren't assholes, but I cannot do anything about their behavior." What I am saying is this: "Some people are assholes, but I can do something (outside of ignoring them) to make them less bothersome in the majority of cases."
Posted 04/06/09 at 2:13 AM by Bass Bass is offline
Old
CrazyDazed's Avatar
You're all nincompoops.
Posted 04/08/09 at 4:49 PM by CrazyDazed CrazyDazed is offline
Old
Neone's Avatar
We had a guild merger, some of the folks we got used "gay" to mean "lame" or "sub-optimal", I mocked them about it, and let them know that I had homosexual friends and that they should choose a different adjective.

They all cleaned up, and let me know that they just used "gay" since other people did.

If you're in a position to have a difference, do it.
Posted 04/13/09 at 3:28 AM by Neone Neone is offline
Old
Yes's Avatar
Zoid, I wonder what your take is on homoerotic banter between hetrosexuals. I am talking about two guys on vent making a joke about how they're going to take some wd40, because they forgot the real stuff, an industrial size candle and a pair of rubber gloves ... to go fix another guy's crankshaft because his car had fallen into misuse. The theme here is mockingly making fun of homosexuality and asserting heterosexuality.
Posted 04/14/09 at 6:10 PM by Yes Yes is offline
Old
There is absolutely something that can be done about this phenomenon and hate speech in general on WoW. Much like Neone, most of us are probably in prominent positions that have the ability to carry weight.

The social pecking order in a community that exists across a server is persistent and can be leveraged. This is especially true for high level players that are treated differently than random newbie.

There have been occasions where I have gotten whispers to heal pugs, and responded with something to the effect of "My guild and I won't help your guild due to your spamming of the trade channel and use of hate speech." We're not the top guild on the server, but are held in generally high regard. On an individual level, sometimes you just need to make someone an example. Someone says something stupid in trade chat, call them on it. If you're high up in the pecking order, people back you up, and you can establish that certain things aren't acceptanble.

It is morally reprehensible and technically "hate speech" to use "fag" regardless of the target. You can do something about it, in many cases. Social power is real enough especially in a place like WoW. Worst case, you say something that makes the offender flip out and spew something that will land a ban. It's not the best solution, but it's an alternative.
Posted 04/15/09 at 12:10 PM by Handyhoof Handyhoof is offline
Old
EDIT: Nevermind. = P
Posted 09/28/09 at 12:11 PM by Valustria Valustria is offline
 
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