On another thought ... I think comparing the threat of a Druid against a Warrior is not really the point. IMO you should compare the threat of a Bear against a dps class on full burn, like a melee shammy for example. A guildie always says he can do more dps if I (Bear) tank compared to the time when a warrior tanks. The point of this reasoning is: dps classes should be allowed to use their full potential, otherwise there is no point in them having certain specs. The end result of this would not be that the Bear has too much threat, but rather that the Warrior doesnt have enough.
Eh? Abilities like Blessing of Salvation, Tranquil Air Totem, Feint, Feign Death, Invisibility, Soulshatter,Misdirection, etc, etc, exist for a reason. It is not intended in normal circumstancees that tank threat simply eclipses DPS threat naturally - aggro management is part of the game.
Eh? Abilities like Blessing of Salvation, Tranquil Air Totem, Feint, Feign Death, Invisibility, Soulshatter,Misdirection, etc, etc, exist for a reason. It is not intended in normal circumstancees that tank threat simply eclipses DPS threat naturally - aggro management is part of the game.
I think arrgo management is a large part of the raiding game, if not the raid game.
Being able to follow some spreadsheet best damage cycle doesn't sound all that fun to me.
Maybe I am missing something but I like a game to be challenging.
1. Druid Yellow Output is 99-100% of our output. Period. End of Sentence. A nerf to it is a direct nerf to our threat output. There is no possible argument.
2. Rage Buff for Bears is meaningless. I am never, NEVER EVER out of rage pre buff. 15-20% more rage to me reads as "You'll feel more guilty about the rage you'll never ever use by 15-20%"
3. The litany of warrior skills needs to be balanced against a class that has almost none of them.
I think most warriors fail to understand the tenuous grasp druids have on Main Tanking. We're hanging by a thread. Tests need to be made, but the current *feel* is that with the nerf of savage fury, and our idol, our multi mob tanking is questionable at this point in comparison to the buff to thunderclap. We don't have enough data to definitively say which is better at this point, but I would not be surprised to see TC come out on top. Additionally, we cannot tab sunder a lot of things. At least 6 different mob types are immune to our sunder, including several raid bosses.
The very fact that you always have rage to use on skills means something is broken (Just like DW fury dps before the rage normalization was broken).
if you have a better suggestion on how to test this im all ears.
Dear god, please use some capitalization and punctuation! This seems completely and utterly pointless unless we can see the full spec/gear sets of all involved.
Was Shandis using pre-raid gear? The highest armour stuff? Some dps gear mixed in?
<Fric> I think the only kind of gay buttsex I'd enjoy on any level would be assraping a smug hipster douchebag (also possibly a roid head and/or fratboy/Jersey Shore cast member)
The very fact that you always have rage to use on skills means something is broken (Just like DW fury dps before the rage normalization was broken).
I takes about 6.5 rage per second incoming before druids will end up with no white damage. That is currently with Mangle being highest priority for 15 rage every 6 seconds, and then Maul every 2.5 seconds for 10 rage. The amount is lowered with the return of rage on crits.
Anything beyond that 6.5 is spent on instants like lacerate or swipe, or saved up for frenzied regen if health starts dropping too quick.
Post 2.0.10 this will be reduced further with Maul probably taking priority over Mangle due to the 50% damage reduction.
Maybe its just because I haven't raised my dodge that high yet, but I am ending up with more than enough rage each time I tank either Heroics or a Kara boss to keep up Mangle and Maul.
1. Id always assumed, probably incorrectly, that sunder was not effected by defiance. Defiance says "attacks" and Defensive stance says "threat". Glancing back over Kenco and whatever I could quickly google, turned up nothing definitive. Anyone know for sure?
I guess you could file that under the same semantics as the tooltips for cleave and heroic
Cleave = Weapon dmg + bonus
Heroic = increases melee dmg by 176. Me as mr literal would interpret that is cleave talented being better and a fixed amount, but doesnt seem to be the case.
I tend to find that a majority of my problems as a MT occur when people are far too liberal with the decision of when is a good time to start DPS. The first 20 seconds of a fight are always by far the toughest, especially since the introduction of Devastate means that you just want to get to 5\5 sunder and then focus on a nice rotation of skills.
I for one completely agree with Zyla about how tenuous hold Druids have on Mt'ing. With the stats I have on my gear currently, 3 Kara low end sidegrade epics, Heroic badge shield, I have 12,094 life, 12,625 armor ( 54.46 ) 20.05 dodge, 17.17 parry, and 25.10% block. 515 defense (+157) and 402 block unbuffed. I in theory can be crush immune, and am crit immune. I have around the same avoidance as the feral druid in our guild (31% dodge or so). Assuming a druid is still at a 75% armor cap (I hope so or I look like a huge idiot), mathematically for pure mitigation purposes, is a druid that much better?
An attack with base damage of 11000 hits the druid for 2750 (a pure melee boss). I get hit for 3909 (3507 with a block ). Assuming I can spam block with a boss that attacks three times per 5 seconds. given that both the druid and I have around a 1\3 avoidance rating, 1 attack is 0 damage. The other two attacks are blocked by me, and taken by the druid. Over the course of two minutes thats 168,336 damage taken by me. The druid takes 132,000. If a normal amount of crushing blows take place, the final damage is 141,625.
With thunderclap soon to be up all the time ( talented as well, at least for me ) that final warrior number is modified again down to 134,668 damage. Couple all of that with blizzards seemingly 'were fucking cocks check' of every boss having an enrage or some stupid crap that basically only Shield Wall gives any true sustained tanking ability for.
If anything I said up above is wrong or stupid, feel free to correct me. I didnt do this to prove that im better or more special or more deserving of tanking and tank loot over druids, this is stuff I enjoy messing around with because I'm concerned that Blizzard quite obviously lack the path, or vision, they want druids to take. All of my stats are, most likely, only going to get better from here on out.
I dont see why at this point they cant have a feral specialization that improves one form over another, and the particular forms are nowhere near as powerful as they are now. All of the druids that truly want to tank I would guess would be ok with less damage, more threat, and progression in better mitigation with better gear the same as warriors. Back when 31-5-15 was a popular spec, i went 7-31-13 personally, that was more because 20+ prot sucked in MC and BWL. Coming from someone who wanted to be 40 fury 21 prot currently, seeing how vast the difference was in my threat as 41+ prot, and how much of my pure damage is taken away I had no choice but to spec high in prot to tank. From the little I know and understand about druids, it seems that the Feral tree is nearly a twofer, or even 1.75 for 1. A druid now is exactly like that arms warrior who just had to "change gear" to fill a completely different roll excelently, something a majority of people in WoW felt was unbalanced, as did I, and has slowly but surely been on its way to balanced. Except that druid just needs to change form, and can put out much better dps than an arms warrior in prot gear would switching to his DPS 2h'er. I know druids benefit just as much as the next class from switching certain pieces of gear, but still less extreme.
My problem with balancing the above is that if they truly "balance" it then in the Min\Max world whats the point of bringing the Druid given their intent to make prot warriors the best (all around, boss, magic-- take your pick ) tanks? I wish instead of endlessly tweaking, they would just throw out anything stupid, and just plain old copy from what works. 1-5 point talent that reduces all damage by 2-10% (bear defensive stance) coupled with the required balancing of armor values or whatever. I for one, am sick of the endless cycle of ups and downs for the classes. They keep teetering back and forth and never actually coming to a consensus on some baseline and going from there.
One last thought, I really hate to read "stop saying its us vs them" or "lets not turn this into another druid vs warrior thread". I find that this is exactly about that, beyond the obvious that the title is Druid V Warrior, most of these changes could create a massive upheaval for one class that gets the nerfbat ( druid this time ) and vault another that I didnt think was that far behind, into a clear lead. If we dont discuss all of this rationally and come to some consensus we have to rely on Blizzard to balance and tune things, and I, do not trust them in the slightest. If someone is a moron or a dick about the discussion, in my mind feel free to call them on that. I think for the very survival of the druid class, talented thunderclap should do no more than hold aggro on mobs against minimal healer threat. It may be alarmist but I for one enjoy some competition and like seeing a druid tanking 3-4 mobs where I would have trouble with 2.
1. Druid Yellow Output is 99-100% of our output. Period. End of Sentence. A nerf to it is a direct nerf to our threat output. There is no possible argument.
2. Rage Buff for Bears is meaningless. I am never, NEVER EVER out of rage pre buff. 15-20% more rage to me reads as "You'll feel more guilty about the rage you'll never ever use by 15-20%"
3. The litany of warrior skills needs to be balanced against a class that has almost none of them.
Just because you are hiding your white damage within Maul doesn't mean that your white damage is not the majority of your base threat. Maul gives you it's innate threat plus the tooltip add--which, typically, is the minority of the threat caused by Maul. The majority of Maul's threat is based on it's innate threat plus your base white damage.
The rage buff is good because it helps ramp-up speed. The start of fights has always been more critical than the middle of fights. Stabalizing a mob or boss quickly while there is still risk of healing aggro, in addition to speeding up the start time for DPS has always been the touchiest thing about tanking. Once you get deep into a fight, unless a MOB has a deaggro, you can go AFK easy enough. (I've held aggro on Chromaggus by doing nothing other than auto-attack after Chromaggus hit 60%, for instance. )
Anyhow, I would still like to see some more solid numbers on the threat-per-second capabilities of a Druid. The easiest way to do this is find a mob with a decent amount of HP, and have a Druid and Warrior (on different occasions) generate threat on it for, say, 30-40 seconds. Then you stop attacking or use any skills, and see how much damage it takes for a DPSer to pull it off you. Reset a damage meter before each fight and see how much damage the DPS class had to do. (This can also be used to verify if any threat values have been changed by running KTM and seeing if the results correspond.)
Rage is usually not the problem on most bosses / hard hitting trash in the start of the fight. It's getting tons of parries, dodges and misses in a row. I've had my first shield slam get parried, sunder dodged, heroic strike missed and then a rogue gets in a few autoattacks and grabs aggro and gets oneshot. Mostly on trash though, they wait a bit longer on bosses. But anyway, just a sidenote to the post before me, mob avoidance is far worse than rage requirement at the start of fights.
Rage is usually not the problem on most bosses / hard hitting trash in the start of the fight. It's getting tons of parries, dodges and misses in a row. I've had my first shield slam get parried, sunder dodged, heroic strike missed and then a rogue gets in a few autoattacks and grabs aggro and gets oneshot. Mostly on trash though, they wait a bit longer on bosses. But anyway, just a sidenote to the post before me, mob avoidance is far worse than rage requirement at the start of fights.
I am fully aware that avoidance is a big issue (MT for 2 years) as well, however I'm just stating that I would not so casually scoff at a 10-20% rage generation increase as if it is "no big deal." It does help.
The popular arguement of heroic over sunder mostly relies on the assumption of rage income by damage dealt is ignorable; which is the case where you care about aggro priorly, and not survivability. Yes it does help, but not more than pom does to your sustained dps.
I am fully aware that avoidance is a big issue (MT for 2 years) as well, however I'm just stating that I would not so casually scoff at a 10-20% rage generation increase as if it is "no big deal." It does help.
It does help when we get a lucky or unlucky streak (depending on how you see it) with parries and dodges on the mob and thus missed our "main" abilities to land enough threat.
I can't help to think it's the wrong approach however, unless the 10-20% rage generation increase is only there to increase the dps of a dps warrior, which it probably is.
My rough estimate would say around 80-85% of my rage bar as a tank comes from the mob actually hitting me (increase the number if it's a boss) and 10-20% rage generation increase from my own hits won't solve a parry/dodge problem.
They are trying to approach the problem I guess, but from the wrong angle.
I've always found the rage mechanic rather lame from a tanking point of view. I just don't get it why 6000 damage have to result in 50 rage etc, which only results in skill-spamming to get rid of excessive rage so you don't lose any on the next hit. I would much rather have a static amount of rage from damage and high threat on the skills which would result in a more "relaxed technical" way of tanking without the spam fest we currently have.
I for one completely agree with Zyla about how tenuous hold Druids have on Mt'ing. With the stats I have on my gear currently, 3 Kara low end sidegrade epics, Heroic badge shield, I have 12,094 life, 12,625 armor ( 54.46 ) 20.05 dodge, 17.17 parry, and 25.10% block. 515 defense (+157) and 402 block unbuffed. I in theory can be crush immune, and am crit immune. I have around the same avoidance as the feral druid in our guild (31% dodge or so). Assuming a druid is still at a 75% armor cap (I hope so or I look like a huge idiot), mathematically for pure mitigation purposes, is a druid that much better?
An attack with base damage of 11000 hits the druid for 2750 (a pure melee boss). I get hit for 3909 (3507 with a block ). Assuming I can spam block with a boss that attacks three times per 5 seconds. given that both the druid and I have around a 1\3 avoidance rating, 1 attack is 0 damage. The other two attacks are blocked by me, and taken by the druid. Over the course of two minutes thats 168,336 damage taken by me. The druid takes 132,000. If a normal amount of crushing blows take place, the final damage is 141,625.
With thunderclap soon to be up all the time ( talented as well, at least for me ) that final warrior number is modified again down to 134,668 damage. Couple all of that with blizzards seemingly 'were fucking cocks check' of every boss having an enrage or some stupid crap that basically only Shield Wall gives any true sustained tanking ability for.
Druids only hit the 75% when inspiration procs on them, and only if using the max armor items, which is hardly the best choice due to massive dodge on lower armor pieces (I lose ~3k armor but gain around 1k hp and 12% dodge) But I'll work with your 1/3 dodged attacks and use the 27k armor that any druid can get from the quest chains (This 27k number doesn't increase with gear right now) after patch this will be reduced to 24k.
27k is 69.3% DR, 24k is 66.75%. In that same scenario, the 'Now' druid takes 11,000 * (1-.693) * (.85 + (.15*1.5)) * 48 = 174,253 damage after crushing over 2 minutes. The 2.0.10 druid takes 188,727 damage after crushing. I won't include TC because the druid can get TC from a warrior in the raid just as well as you can.
I personally run with 23k armor and around 45% dodge when raid buffed (totem, food, motw, agi pot) so I would end up taking 161,813 damage after crushing. After patch I'm looking at taking 171,652 damage.
2 Major things to notice here, first is that currently your druid isn't really a better tank than you are if they really only have 31% dodge buffed. Secondly, the armor change isn't that big a deal for druids, an 8% increase in damage taken is significant, but not gamebreaking.
Edit: In no way do I think feral tanking is over, T4/5 do have some very good items for tanking, as well as a set bonus that makes up for a bit of the armor hit on the items (+1400 armor with 4/5 Malorne) Though the items are hardly optimized for either cat or bear form
I am fully aware that avoidance is a big issue (MT for 2 years) as well, however I'm just stating that I would not so casually scoff at a 10-20% rage generation increase as if it is "no big deal." It does help.
It's certainly not, when you're not taking enough damage to chain maul along with swipe/mangle and you need to build up some extra it will be very noticeable.
Originally Posted by Boevis
2 Major things to notice here, first is that currently your druid isn't really a better tank than you are if they really only have 31% dodge buffed. Secondly, the armor change isn't that big a deal for druids, an 8% increase in damage taken is significant, but not gamebreaking.
This was my first thought, I have ~31% with only Mark of the Wild on and can approach 40% with various other buffs - my gear certainly isn't outstanding either.
I very much doubt that Feral Druids won't be wanted anymore (Warriors bearly (lol pun) seem to want to tank anyways), we are still very solid tanks and I hope that the armour reduction was to allow Blizzard to give us better itemization in the future.
To test the threat properly you need to do it the boring time consuming way.
Have the druid hit a mob and stop, then see how much damage needs to be done to pull mob away.
The damage done to pull the mob away should be in small increments for accuracy.
Last edited by Cluey : 02/25/07 at 12:56 PM.
Reason: Removed derail.
thunderclap has nothing on swipe. thats been proven
ill expand.
reason why is because swipe has no cooldown while TC has a cooldown and even then causes less threat then swipe.
Poor posting has nothing on proper punctuation. That's been proven as well.
I'll expand.
Reason why is when you can't type like an intelligent person, people tend to consider you...unintelligent. And we don't like dumb people posting on our forums.
Originally Posted by Lyta
I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.
I read through 5 pages worth of this thread expecting something solid from someone knowledgeable, and was disappointed
Another factor you'd want in a proper test of this would be incoming damage - who makes best use of an unlimited (or almost unlimited) rage scenario, like patchwerk?
TC in defensive stance will be a big help for warriors getting initial aggro on multiple mob pulls in 5/10 man instances, mainly. I don't think it was ever meant to compete with consecrate / swipe.
Poor posting has nothing on proper punctuation. That's been proven as well.
I'll expand.
Reason why is when you can't type like an intelligent person, people tend to consider you...unintelligent. And we don't like dumb people posting on our forums.
My bad, I was in a hurry to type this up because i needed to do something else.
Cluey, if that test is true it may actually be a silver lining in this dark cloud of a nerf. I do not recall what the old maul threat multiplier was, however getting A multiplier back is an amazing buff in my mind.
Hopefully later I (or others) will be able to get on PTR and test out with different levels of attack power what the numbers are on both maul and mangle (heres to hoping mangle gets a multiplier tagged on as well).
02/25/07, 4:39 AM
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