Only problem what I see with the threat reduction is that it contradicts the talent decision what I could make by selecting Redoubt instead of Improved Devotion aura. If IDAura and toughnes was swapped, I wouldnt need to think about myself speccing on 5man tanking while going to precision. The other option what I currently use is going for offhealer trough holy and skip precision.

Beginning of protection has been always the problem for me personally to go for precision. It was basicly 5 talents completely wasted for 3% of hit. That was too huge cost considering that I had weaponskill as human and already over 7% hit from gear. Now if Judgement of command stays with spell hit (What I hope it doesnt) I may want to spec precision, but taking it I would definetely select Redoubt for 5man tanking. Its just that my Retribution threat reduction is logically against that kind of "hybrid" spec. Only logical route would be then to go holy with the spare talents for imp LoH and such.

I predict that Blizzard makes the talent "While equiping 2-handed weapons". It would save a lot of headache.

Baseline Paladin Threat
= 100% White Damage + 160% Holy Damage

Ret Paladin Threat w/ Fanaticism

[top] (100% White Damage + 160% Holy Damage) * 70%

70% White Damage + 112% Holy Damage

Ret Paladin Threat w/ iRF

[top] (100% White damage + 190% Holy Damage) * 70%

70% white damage threat + 133% Holy Threat


iRF does not remotely make up the 30% loss of threat from Fanaticism. We also do not have abilities with innate threat values like Warriors or Druids.


A spec like mine with 0 points in Prot would have quite a bit of trouble holding aggro without judicious use of 2h tanking and use of taunt/BoP in 2.3.

Again: ask your favorite tank if losing 30% of all his threat would be a big deal. I guarantee you I know what he'll say.

The modifiers are multiplicative, not additive, and you're not applying salvation correctly regardless.

Suffice it to say, the only thing that lets a Ret paladin maintank a 5-man right now is being able to put salvation on the dps. It simply doesn't work without that; ask anyone who's tried. The new fanaticism change (if it applies all the time) will have the effect of a permanent Blessing of Salvation on the paladin. He'll have to put salv on the rest of the party just to get back to square one, which is tanking for unsalved dps, which isn't doable.

No, he doesn't. A zero-prot warrior can tank for unsalved dps; it's not pretty but it can be done. A zero-prot paladin can't do that without salv on the dps.

I do.

Any good DPS can and should be able to pull threat at any given time. A great DPS is one who can maintain their output and control their aggro levels.

I suppose it is maybe just my guild, but our tanks are always very helpful about running things, even for alts (as long as they're not in the middle of something else). If you're getting the opposite, I'm sorry, but from my experience if you ask nicely people don't care that much.

And honestly, I am perfectly willing to live with the stigma that "lewl a ret pally can't tank" because it sure as hell is better than "a ret pally can't dps".

Sure, but my favorite tanks actually spec for tanking. I personally don't see a problem with this, and I'm more than happy to take 30% threat reduction wherever they want to put it.

Even assuming ImpRF could make up for Fanaticism -- it can't -- which talents are you planning to give up to get Improved RF with a full PvE Ret build?

Yes if Judgements remain their spell hit mechanics, it is pretty nice talent overall. I truly hope that retribution seals would be melee hit based. But cant win everything.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

What exactly would you do with the remaining points (Lets pretend that it is 2.3 talent calculator)? 3% crit? Talents in BoM that is always given by some holy paladin? Imp RF?

Due to the mechanics of Judgements that's slightly inaccurate, but more or less correct. You did not take into account however the increased damage from Vengeance to begin with which does help to offset things very slightly, and the addition of Sanctity Aura which significantly increases the amount of damage actually being done. Then there is also (small as it may be) the addition of Crusader Strike every 6 seconds which while it may not seem a huge amount is still a reasonable amount of threat.

Ultimately it'll be harder, but not impossible. Compared to the current situation it is far improved.

I am assuming at this point that a "full Retribution raid DPS build" is mutually exclusive with "tanking raid DPS build". Otherwise what is the point of the former if the latter is just as good? A full Ret raid DPS build is something like 5/8/48 currently and will give or take by the same post patch. A backup tankadin build will probably not be quite so brazen. Incidentally, dropping Divine Strength from that build I mentioned will net you your Improved Righteous Fury, and 1 point from any point of Ret you wish (1/3 Crusade maybe) will net you BoK.

A viable tanking build is something else, but if it's just threat you're worried about, that's no problem.

What's your point here? That the tank producing 30% less threat doesn't matter?

You're fortunate to have tanks who are willing to run instances twice as often as everyone else in the guild. Speaking personally (as a tank) I wish I could do a 5-man every time someone in the guild needs a tank, but if I did that I'd burn out within a month.

Take 3 of those and put them in the new +3% crit/non dispellable seals talent.

As for the last one its hard to say. If you PVP at all maybe you should remove the one point from bomight and run with a 10% vindication or eye for an eye.

If you favor PVE more perhaps you should invest more in endurance and put 2 points in Divine intellect? (Again removing the single point from Bomight)

That comment was in response to your comment about how DPS is already pulling off of you (as a prot pally). IMO most of the time the problem lies not with the tank but with the DPS not paying attention to Omen/KLH.

Where did I say that?

Honestly at this point I'd say be happy that we finally have proper specialisation in our trees. By and large I imagine the bulk of Retadins will be happy with their new found and pretty incredible threat reduction. Prot pallies seem happier with their new ridiculous health values and Holy paladins have always been a reasonably happy bunch anyway.

I'm hoping maybe for a handful more changes from this PTR, particularly in terms of itemization, but..

Remind me again why Ret paladins "need threat reduction".

He confused me with you.


It's what I said. Losing aggro as a 0-Prot paladin in tank gear versus geared DPS with Salv.

Oh for crying out loud, I laid it out in my post if you'd bothered to read it. Here it is again:

A non-prot paladin in the game right now can't hold aggro against unsalved dps. I know this from experience.

If the same paladin gets -30% threat from Fanaticism and the same dps gets -30% threat from Salvation, can you see how nothing changes?

Oh, give me a freakin break. Do you really think the devs are going to pout now and not take us seriously because of this?

I have to agree.

The last thing i am hoping for is a fix to our itemization. Hopefully we can drop at least one parameter that can be supplemented in some way.

AP to SD seems to be the most obvious fix as it still keeps us a little different than Warriors, but at the same time and perhaps more importantly it doesn't penalize paladins who are wearing older gear (Gear with spell damage already that is oriented towards RET)

I will accept what ever blizzard decides, I only have problems understanding why such limitation would be applied. When the problem could be removed with making the threat reduction aplly only with 2handed weapons.

It allows us to be more competitive dps.

Damage is always capped by threat in a serious encounter. If everyone has 50%+ than it is inevitable the paladin will do terrible. Not because he is not capable of better, but because the game mechanics or PVE rules prevent him from doing so.

One does not need to be on the PTR to understand how threat reduction affects tanking ability.


EDIT: We can simulate the effects of the Fanaticism threat reduction on Live by having a paladin MT without using Salv on his DPS. Most paladins have probably experienced this before by letting blessings fade, and the effect is pretty noticeable when mobs get loose.

If you'll look up at one of my other posts, you'll see the math on how the threat reduction strongly affects the threat gen of a Ret paladin. (iRF does not come close to making up the difference)


Also, note that this thread has different players wanting different things from the same class/spec. The players who wanted threat reduction are one group. The players who are pointing out the impact of the (currently proposed) threat reduction are a different group of players.


I'm doing the same thing that those who wanted Threat Reduction did - discussing the implications of the 2.3 changes, hopefully with less kvetching and more data.


I'm firmly of the belief that if players looked at the facts, recognized the advantages and drawbacks of possible changes, and then communicated their desires clearly to the developers, then future changes are made with our desires in mind. (Weighted by numbers and feasibility)


So that's what this mini-discussion is about. Do Ret paladins wish to gain raid-DPS threat reduction even if comes at the cost of their ability to tank for raid/normal content? So far, I'm seeing a lot of affirmatives.

I am more than willing.

Off tanking as a CC will also still be possible (even with the threat reduction) in 5 man content.

Affirmative without second thought. Only question I have is "Why it needs to be removed" as I dont see any real reason why Retribution would tank anything but normal mode 5mans and maybe heroics with good gear. They wont be competitive tanks in the meaning of mitigation or hitpoints. Only thing they have is remotely good threat production.

I accept it and I am more than willing to give up a bit tanking threat if Blizzard finds it necesary.

For me it just looks that they "forgot" the tanking part. Thats why I expect them to jsut change the modifier for being when 2-handers are equiped.