Feel free to link some armory pages for Ret paladins who have 2+ pieces of Prot T4.
I actually have the prot shoulders and gloves (but I'm not ret until 2.3 goes live). *shrug*
Originally Posted by Cathela
So why are you arguing that others should be frustrated by a lack of viable tanks for casual content? Especially considering that tanks are globally in shorter supply than healers and much shorter supply than dps?
I've never had this problem. On Draka the hardest thing to find is a healer most of the time, there are no shortages of Prot pallys and feral druids who do five mans if you're PuGging. Your experience may vary, but painting the whole world as lacking a tank is a bit premature.
Yes, it would have been nice to get a "turn on/off" threat reduction. Who knows, it might change before it goes live (I personally think it will). If it does go live like this, will it kill casual 5-an PuGs? No. So you might have to salv your group and have them wait for a minute for you to get a threat cushion. Maybe they'll have to watch Omen a bit closer. Is that any different than running with a DPS warrior tank? Not really.
You spec ret to DPS. You need said Threat Reduction to DPS. If that same TR reduces your chance to do a job that you're not especially specced for, so be it.
In all honesty its a sacrifice every true ret pally out there is willing to make.
I thought Blizzard made it quite clear at Blizzcon that your primary role was the primary role of whatever tree you specced into. This fact is now true. Can we please stop complaining about it? We are NOT a tank/healer hybrid.
This is pretty ignorant., and you certainly can't expect people to stop talking about it if you through out idiotic statements like "We are NOT a tank/healer hybrid" and expect people to just swallow them.
The devs also lamented that talent specialization was too severe, particularly in the case of warriors, who fail to function at any role unless thoroughly specced for it. They want hybrids to still function as hybrids, regardless of spec. This is one reason why no other talent in the game explicitly reduces hybrid performance in alternate roles. It's pretty shocking to me that some players have blinders on to the degree where they look at a proposed change like this and immediately react with "oh, it's fine, we struggled through the one or two times I tried to tank so clearly a 30% threat reduction won't affect me at all".
If anything, I would speculate that the information they've released (which is limited to a single blue post thusfar, unless I missed something) is incomplete.
The only time I ever recall a ret paladin tanking is when we did a Gruul run with pretty much all twink characters and we had a ret paladin tank the priest add on Maulgar.
Does it honestly ever come up? You just got 30% threat reduction, take it and be happy
We are taking it and we are damn happy. We just dont understand why the debuff is there as it does not limit our capabilities. It is just flat tire, we can still tank just fine but there is no logical reason why we should drive around with flat tire. Lets say for example that my friend needs 5man tank. I have rather good tanking gear, and I will be more than happy to help him. It does not limit my tanking capability, it only makes tanking unnecesarily harder, without any logical reasoning why it must be harder.
Im perfectly fine if Blizzard thinks its needed debuff, Im personally only saying that I dont understand why the debuff for other trees is there. I will be still damn happy little ret pally no matter what happens, we have won the war. We are only talking about casualties and if we should leave the wounded on the battlefield or not.
This is pretty ignorant., and you certainly can't expect people to stop talking about it if you through out idiotic statements like "We are NOT a tank/healer hybrid" and expect people to just swallow them.
Watch, please. The rest is relatively unimportant.
If anything, I would speculate that the information they've released (which is limited to a single blue post thusfar, unless I missed something) is incomplete.
Of course it's incomplete. I don't care whether the talent is changed one way or another. But, and here's the key thing. I do not want to lose part of my threat reduction under ANY circumstance just so someone else can tank with 48 points in the DPS tree of my class. That's it. A Ret paladin can still heal and CAN still tank with some Prot investment.
I am not ignorant. I am just trying to make sense of a situation I am very happy to be in.
This is pretty ignorant., and you certainly can't expect people to stop talking about it if you through out idiotic statements like "We are NOT a tank/healer hybrid" and expect people to just swallow them.
The devs also lamented that talent specialization was too severe, particularly in the case of warriors, who fail to function at any role unless thoroughly specced for it.
Ok, name a hybrid that doesn't fail to function at any role unless specced for it because I can't think of a single one. Keep gear requirements in mind, you don't have two complete sets of gear for your current level of raiding around.
Ok, name a hybrid that doesn't fail to function at any role unless specced for it because I can't think of a single one. Keep gear requirements in mind, you don't have two complete sets of gear for your current level of raiding around.
Hm, let me think. Oh, here's one: A Holy paladin tanking!
I'm probably going to rant a little bit here because this is the biggest collection of stupid whining I think I've ever had the misfortune to see on this forum, and it's honestly degenerated in to WoW-General levels of absurdity. These changes make Ret not only very good damage dealers but, because of the non-talented nature of Blessing of Light and the relative non-bloat of the Ret tree, better than average healers with a gear shift and still retain the ability to tank in passing.
Consider the Ret paladin's counterparts: enhancement shamans, balance and feral druids, and shadow priests. In their damage-dealing gear, only the shadow priest and boomkin retain any semblance of healing ability, but it's poor to say the least. I don't think anyone will argue that in their DPS gear none of the hybrids heal well. However, when you consider a stereotypical DPS tree/Heal tree build for each class, the paladin is hands down the best healer because of the massive benefit that BoL gives and the shallow positioning of Illumination combined with the relative lack of bottom-heavy talents in Ret that actually makes it feasible to take Illumination. Druids can't get deep enough to get Improved Healing Touch. Priests typically pair Shadow with Disc which puts them in a similar situation, but they only need to pass off 2 points to get pushback protection. The shaman is probably the next best off since they can take Improved Healing Wave, but its general inefficiency and the fact that the Enhancement tree's bloat means many Enhancement shamans will be giving up pushback protection means that Ret is still the best "your spec is wrong" healer of the bunch by a pretty wide margin. I recognize that with the improvement to Precision that many paladins will want to go 8 deep in Prot, but simply being able to do that and retaining your pushback protection with 10 in holy and having BoL + FoL means you are still a surprisingly effective healer in heal gear.
Considering all that, a Ret/Prot hybrid is now decried as "impossible" due to the global threat reduction -- never mind the fact that trying to tank without Holy Shield is a complete joke in the first place -- while nicely ignoring that with Improved RF your holy damage is boosted to 190% of normal threat. Combining the mods you're at 1.9*.7 = 1.33 holy threat mod with the ability to put your group at .7 threat mod. Your threat level is still better than what a DPS warrior will typically be able to generate, especially on multi-mob pulls.
So really, you're now given the tools to become an outstanding DPSer in any context, a passable raid healer and a bad but still feasible for 5-mans tank and you aren't sure if you should stop your torrent of posts asking for more? Please forgive me if I'm not going to sit here and wring your hankies out so you can cry some more.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
I'm probably going to rant a little bit here because this is the biggest collection of stupid whining I think I've ever had the misfortune to see on this forum, and it's honestly degenerated in to WoW-General levels of absurdity. These changes make Ret not only very good damage dealers but, because of the non-talented nature of Blessing of Light and the relative non-bloat of the Ret tree, better than average healers with a gear shift and still retain the ability to tank in passing.
Consider the Ret paladin's counterparts: enhancement shamans, balance and feral druids, and shadow priests. In their damage-dealing gear, only the shadow priest and boomkin retain any semblance of healing ability, but it's poor to say the least. I don't think anyone will argue that in their DPS gear none of the hybrids heal well. However, when you consider a stereotypical DPS tree/Heal tree build for each class, the paladin is hands down the best healer because of the massive benefit that BoL gives and the shallow positioning of Illumination combined with the relative lack of bottom-heavy talents in Ret that actually makes it feasible to take Illumination. Druids can't get deep enough to get Improved Healing Touch. Priests typically pair Shadow with Disc which puts them in a similar situation, but they only need to pass off 2 points to get pushback protection. The shaman is probably the next best off since they can take Improved Healing Wave, but its general inefficiency and the fact that the Enhancement tree's bloat means many Enhancement shamans will be giving up pushback protection means that Ret is still the best "your spec is wrong" healer of the bunch by a pretty wide margin. I recognize that with the improvement to Precision that many paladins will want to go 8 deep in Prot, but simply being able to do that and retaining your pushback protection with 10 in holy and having BoL + FoL means you are still a surprisingly effective healer in heal gear.
Considering all that, a Ret/Prot hybrid is now decried as "impossible" due to the global threat reduction -- never mind the fact that trying to tank without Holy Shield is a complete joke in the first place -- while nicely ignoring that with Improved RF your holy damage is boosted to 190% of normal threat. Combining the mods you're at 1.9*.7 = 1.33 holy threat mod with the ability to put your group at .7 threat mod. Your threat level is still better than what a DPS warrior will typically be able to generate, especially on multi-mob pulls.
So really, you're now given the tools to become an outstanding DPSer in any context, a passable raid healer and a bad but still feasible for 5-mans tank and you aren't sure if you should stop your torrent of posts asking for more? Please forgive me if I'm not going to sit here and wring your hankies out so you can cry some more.
I saw you discussed the prism of inner calm in some other threads a while ago.
Supposedly it got stealth buffed recently and all spell crits reduce threat by 1k atm.
The discussion in the other threads seemed to end before touching on that and I couldn't find anything else on it.
Is this something you've already gone over? Would it be relevant at all to retadins?
The end of aggro topping came when I got my Prism, pretty much refuse to remove it now.
I don't think any ret paladins are actually unhappy, they are just arguing for a more elegant solution since there's nothing else to really argue about.
I mean seriously, the argument is that a ret spec paladin might have a difficult time tanking five man dungeons. Five mans.
It's like arguing for moonkin tanking viability in 5 mans. They changed sublety in the druid tree to affect damage spells and there were people afraid it would kill moonkin 5 man tanking. In the end no one gave a damn but it was something to argue about for a little bit.
I am going to have to agree with Nite_Moogle's point. I have been following this thread for what seems ages now, and it is amazing how far we have come with these changes. Although I am not ret now, I will be come 2.3 and I am looking forward to it.
What I think these posters have forgotten is that this is not "Retadin use in off-raid days when I want to tank a 5 man with 4 of my guildmates", this thread pertains to Retadin use in Raids. Now I am willing to bet that all of these Paladins who have been Retadins to up before this patch will sacrafice thier ability to tank 5 mans to vastly improve thier DPS capabilities.
I am not saying this complaining doesn't have a point, I am saying that it doesn't belong in this thread. This is a discussion about Retadins in Raids and I believe that it should continue that way without this rampart complaining.
Hm, let me think. Oh, here's one: A Holy paladin tanking!
Show me the WWS of a Main Tank using Holy Shock on Archimonde.
Holy Paladins are not decent tanks, we can only reach the improved threat but we don't have access to either +stamina talent. When was the last time you've seen a holy paladin tank something not in a 5man? I wouldn't even try Karazhan, Prince Malchezaar would probably kill a Holy Paladin in Phase 2 with crushing blows. But then again, you haven't even been there in the first place.
I don't think any ret paladins are actually unhappy, they are just arguing for a more elegant solution since there's nothing else to really argue about.
I mean seriously, the argument is that a ret spec paladin might have a difficult time tanking five man dungeons. Five mans.
It's like arguing for moonkin tanking viability in 5 mans. They changed sublety in the druid tree to affect damage spells and there were people afraid it would kill moonkin 5 man tanking. In the end no one gave a damn but it was something to argue about for a little bit.
Amen brother, this is exactly how it is. Atleast I dont consider it as big deal. Care meter for Threat Reduction 100%, Care meter for tanking small instances 5%. I still care, and I can have a conversation about it. But it is not that black/white like people make it to seem. Its not like we are actually doing /wrists for the little hickup on the implementation.
Amen brother, this is exactly how it is. Atleast I dont consider it as big deal. Care meter for Threat Reduction 100%, Care meter for tanking small instances 5%. I still care, and I can have a conversation about it. But it is not that black/white like people make it to seem. Its not like we are actually doing /wrists for the little hickup on the implementation.
There's only so much cheering you can do about an awesome change. Sure it's petty, but something to talk about and a opportunity to learn about the class further.
Show me the WWS of a Main Tank using Holy Shock on Archimonde.
Holy Paladins are not decent tanks, we can only reach the improved threat but we don't have access to either +stamina talent. When was the last time you've seen a holy paladin tank something not in a 5man? I wouldn't even try Karazhan, Prince Malchezaar would probably kill a Holy Paladin in Phase 2 with crushing blows. But then again, you haven't even been there in the first place.
We have a Holy Paladin tank the Phoenixs on Al'ar and the trash in Hyjal, they're useful in both situations as with Righteous Fury and a Lifetapping Warlock, they can heal agro mobs pretty fast and then keep them on themselves with Ret Aura + Consecration, try thinking outside the box.
Also, I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who haven't been past Karazhan, but they are probably a better player then you. The progression card is the worst one you can play.
I think there are a lot of people yelling at one another though they very nearly agree.
Everyone seems to think that retadins needed threat reduction.
Everyone agrees that 30% threat reduction will make retadins viable in raids.
Everyone agrees that 30% less threat isn't going to stop a retadin from tanking the fifth mob in a raid situation.
Every sane ret paladin would choose to have this talent be there instead of not be there.
So as far as raids go, there are no arguments. This is a huge, needed buff that has no relevant penalties. If you are only concerned about 25 mans there is no reason to talk further.
However, Blizzard is obviously trying to shake up warriors so that offspec warriors can tank easy content. Not having enough tanks around is a fairly constant concern on most servers and making it easier for ret paladins and DPS warriors to tank trivial content that they overgear is good for the game in general. Ret paladins aren't saying they don't want this change, they ARE saying that this change goes against the principles of other changes Blizzard has been trying to make.
Making ret paladins patently unsuitable tanks for trivial 5 man content does not balance anything. It does make it a little more annoying for PUGs and alts running 5 man instances to find a guy who can tank and there really seems like little incentive to do that. Everyone wants PUGs and alts to have slightly better and slightly more tanks, why not do that?
I am holy at the moment, but I will likely be ret come 2.3. I will take this talent and be ecstatic either way. I would also be happy to tank a couple 5 mans for guildies on occasion, and I hope to not have this be made extremely difficult and annoying.
Wow, thats pretty nuts. Can we get another confirmation on this? Be hard not to have a ret pally if they intended for it to work like that.
Vindication works on any mob that is CC able, so if you can sheep/trap/etc you can proc vindication and it procs non stop but all bosses and non cc able mobs you get a big immune flag.
However, Blizzard is obviously trying to shake up warriors so that offspec warriors can tank easy content.
I'd like to qualify this by saying that tactical mastery won't be showing up in most PvE warrior DPS builds, so the change to tanking for DPS warriors is an optional one. We would, however, be giving up DPS to be a better tank. It's a viable option, for sure, but not something that we are getting by default (unless I missed a recent change).
I actually have the prot shoulders and gloves (but I'm not ret until 2.3 goes live). *shrug*
Well, I suppose some people do collect off-spec T4 sets. You can go back and correct my math to account for the ret paladin having the set bonus if you like, or change it so that neither of the paladins has the set bonus. It won't make a noticeable difference in the results in either case. You're still going to see a post-Fanaticism Ret paladin putting out 60% of the threat of a Prot paladin at most.
I've never had this problem. On Draka the hardest thing to find is a healer most of the time, there are no shortages of Prot pallys and feral druids who do five mans if you're PuGging. Your experience may vary, but painting the whole world as lacking a tank is a bit premature.
Well, your experience is rather strongly at odds with mine, where I frequently get random invites to tank both on my paladin and my two warriors from people whom I don't even know, not only on the live server I play on but also in the TBC beta. Given that the developers stated at Blizzcon that they were making the DK a tank specifically to make it easier to find tanks for 5-mans, I'm guessing my experience is closer to the norm.
Yes, it would have been nice to get a "turn on/off" threat reduction. Who knows, it might change before it goes live (I personally think it will). If it does go live like this, will it kill casual 5-an PuGs? No. So you might have to salv your group and have them wait for a minute for you to get a threat cushion. Maybe they'll have to watch Omen a bit closer. Is that any different than running with a DPS warrior tank? Not really.
What you just described is what it's like tanking as a non-prot paladin right now on live. And yes, it's not much different than running with a dps warrior tank -- if the paladin has salvation available and the warrior doesn't.
Let me approach it a different way. In general, on live right now, a non-prot paladin and a non-prot warrior can hold aggro roughly equally well. Both are good enough at it to complete any normal 5-man instance, though neither run will be quite as fast or smooth as with a specced tank. The difference between the two is that the paladin relies on being able to put salvation on the dps; the warrior does not. It's balanced this way because obviously the paladin can count on having salv available and the warrior can't. If the paladin doesn't put salvation on the dps, his tanking ability is vastly worse than the warrior.
What this change will do, effectively, is eliminate the effect of salvation on the dps.
In all honesty its a sacrifice every true ret pally out there is willing to make.
Oh, come off it. Just because someone wants to tank a 5-man from time to time doesn't mean they aren't a "true" ret paladin.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
So I wanted to post this up earlier this weekend but RL was super busy so I didn't get a chance to. Below are two theories I'm just throwing out there. Granted, I did this prior to seeing that SoC rank 1 has some interesting mana consumption/DPS qualities, which will be interesting to test. Anyways, just throwing these ideas out there for the masses to tear apart and tell me I'm a newb.
Ok. The below are some theories I've come up with and had limited ability (or none at all) to test over the last few months. I know there are errors. I need help finding them. Shoot holes in the theories if you can, because I can't test these theories well on my own at this time. But maybe this will give some people some different ways to think about optimizing Retadin DPS. Also, I already know places where I need help adjusting the numbers for 2.3 (or in general), I'll outline them all and hopefully people will be kind enough to supply them for me. If someone after seeing this wants to try and lend me a hand with testing let me know, I <3 you long time.
Theory 1: Spell Rotation
I've noticed quite a few paladins use a rotation of the following kind based on their WWS logs: Seal of Blood/Command, Judgement, Crusader Strike. Some exorcism thrown in (1-2), some consecrate thrown in (nothing major). It also seems like they do not use very many if any mana potions.
Another common trend is people tend to like to go BS for the weapons. Therefore I propose the following:
The superior DPS rotation to use is Consecrate (Rank 4), Hammer of Wrath, Seal of Blood/Command, Judgement, and Crusader Strike. If exorcism is available, that takes priority over Consecrate in terms of mana (but if you can fire both off then do it).
You can achieve this rotation easily if instead of leaning BS you take alchemy and use an alchemist's stone, even if you don't get a judgement of wisdom up on the mob from another paladin (but you should). Some numbers:
14.875 mana per second for Seal of Command
26.666 mana per second for Exorcism
91.666 mana per second for Hammer of Wrath
23.6 mana per second for Crusader Strike
15.5 mana per second for Judgement
48.75 mana per second for Consecration rank 4
82.5 mana per second for consecration rank 6
Obviously these numbers will be off for 2.3. If someone would be kind enough to supply me the new mana costs for 2.3 (and if someone would let me know if the mana cost on CS has changed), I can adjust all these numbers. Assume HoW, Exorcism go down and CS goes up for now. This means that the standard rotation most rets use goes up in mana cost and the new one will not be as expensive as before.
Quote:
Rotation 1:
Seal of Command, Judgement, Crusader Strike: 53.975
Rotation 2:
Seal of Command, Judgement, Crusader Strike, Consecration Rank 4: 102.725
Rotation 3:
Seal of command, Judgement, Crusader Strike, Consecration Rank 4, Hammer of Wrath: 194.391
Rotation 4:
Seal of Command, Judgement, Crusader Strike, Exorcism, Consecration Rank 4: 129.391
Rotation 5:
Seal of Command, Judgement, Crusader Strike, Exorcism, Consecration, Hammer of Wrath: 221.057
At this point I'll note I'm intentionally not including blood. I'm not going to bother modeling it, just assume automatically it is far more mana efficient (lower mana cost and mana back from others healing you). Doesn't really change the point. But if you notice, the rotation I'm proposing goes anywhere from 2x-4x as much mana per second drain on the paladin as the standard rotation. However, I swear its doable. Here's why:
Super Mana Potion: 20
Fel Mana Potion: 26.6666667
Super Mana Potion w/ Alchemist's Stone: 28
Fel Mana Potion w/ Alchemist's Stone: 37.3333333
values for chain chugging pots w and without alchemist's stone. If you notice fel manas w/ alchemist almost cover consecrate rank 4 by themselves. Now use major magebloods, make sure your fellow dins get wisdom up there for you to refresh, etc, and its very easy to keep up the mana. Even without wisdom, if I have blood I can pretty much perma sustain it without trying. I don't recall if I can do it no wisdom and command without it being a fight where I take damage.
The theory is as such:
Unless you are threat capped already,if you can generate more mana and then use it, then you generate more dps than you would by leaning BS and not using alchemist's stone (and if you don't chain chug and you aren't at threat cap then you just are playing sub optimally). For me, Consecrate rank 4 is worth 88 dps on a single target, and if you can hit multiple targets it gets even better. The BS weapons IMO aren't superior enough to justify passing up on 15 all stats and the extra mana, and I don't know if a trinket exists that will provide more dps (I mean that - maybe one does, I just don't know). The rotation I proposed above is a consequence of this theory: Its roughly what I am comfortable throwing at a mob in a regular rotation without bottoming out. It might be possible to do better, I'd need some time to sit at a mob using multiple ranks of consecrate etc.
Theory 2: Spell Damage v Str w/ different rotation?
When you use blood, judgement of blood, CS, and white hits as your only dps, yes. Spell damage sucks. But notice I have multiple things in that rotation which all benefit from spell damage - especially if you run command. So how good is spell damage roughly?
Here is my math and assumptions. I need people to give me more accurate numbers and assumptions and I will re-run the numbers to get something more accurate:
1) Assume ideal circumstances - all spells go off every time they are off cooldown. Yes, this obviously isn't true, but for the sake of trying to keep things simple to start I'm fudging.
2) Assume 3.6 speed weapon, 35% melee crit, 7% spell crit, enh shaman and kings. The last two favor str and attack power, the rest is just for a starting point. I also assume the % bonuses are multiplicative, so its 1.1*1.1*1.1 (kings, 10% str talent, and 10% AP) more mileage out of str than base. ALSO: I know my spell coefficients are off. If someone can give me the right ones I'd appreciate it a great deal.
3) Assume following mathematics:
Spell based additions to DPS:
1) 5 Spell damage = 1 dps consecrate (single target assuming)
2) (Spell Damage * .4) / 6 seconds = CS dps from dmg <- adjusted for 2.3
3) (Spell damage * .43)/ 6 seconds) * .2 = HoW DPS from dmg.
4) ((Spell damage * .43)*6.8 PPM)/60 seconds = SoC dps from damage.
5) (Spell damage * .43) / 8 = JoC dps from dmg
6) Exorcism isn't counted for the number I'll present here, but math is (spell damage * .43) / 15
Str based additions to DPS:
1) Attack power / 14 = white dps from str
2) (white dps * weapon speed) / 6 = CS dps from str
3) white dps * .35 = SoB DPS
4) ((white dps * weapon speed) * ((.7 to holy damage * 6.8 PPM)/60 seconds)) = SoC dps from str
The value I get for the value of dmg under the above circumstances is .610001 for SoB, and .916675 for SoC. Spell crit raises the value in favor of dmg, melee crit lowers it, weapon speed lowers it, but not by any massive margins. I will produce precise numbers about that once I get the math corrected, and upload a spreadsheet so people can modify it/see I'm not making things up. The only thing I don't know how to model here is WF. WF technically boosts SoC procs and also boosts how much white damage is being done. Worst case lets assume it makes dmg worth 80% of what it is without WF factored in and then its roughly half value of str from SoB and for SoC roughly 3/4 the value of str.
However, these numbers seem to be higher than people were originally predicting the value for dmg conversion. I've seen numbers like .4 etc. I'd like some help correcting this to get an exact value for a spell heavy rotation. It might be higher or lower, but knowing would certainly allow us to evaluate tier X v dps plate etc. Seems like for alliance 'dins dmg might be not too shabby.
Concluding thoughts
Once again, I stress that I'm extremely limited in my ability to test. My guild was strugging before and it has decided to stop raiding as of tuesday (which was also the day I realized the possibility of theory 2, before I assumed Dmg sucked like everyone else - my gear needs to be redone if I'm right). I've put this out here at last because it seems like I'm not going to get an opportunity to personally test this before coming forward with it, and I may never even get to see the fruits of this if I'm right. So, if you can help me refine the theories or shoot em down, by all means. I put this forward now to try and help further the cause for rets like me everywhere.
So, I'm curious what you all think of this. Happy to answer questions, and I appologize if I'm just a newb who made a ton of dumb errors. Have at it!
Vindication works on any mob that is CC able, so if you can sheep/trap/etc you can proc vindication and it procs non stop but all bosses and non cc able mobs you get a big immune flag.
This was mentioned before, but just to reiterate and clarify what I've been seeing:
On the PTR, Vindication does stick on every boss in ZA. The stamina reducing part of it appears to have no effect though, and how much of an effect the rest of it has is something I need my resident ret pally to test further.
This was mentioned before, but just to reiterate and clarify what I've been seeing:
On the PTR, Vindication does stick on every boss in ZA. The stamina reducing part of it appears to have no effect though, and how much of an effect the rest of it has is something I need my resident ret pally to test further.
But the debuff does land on bosses!
That kind of makes sense if bosses have large base hp pools and small amounts of stamina, so a 15% stamina reduction wouldn't remove much of their total hp.
We already know that boss attack power is usually like this (basically enough AP to have it all stripped away by Demo shout, but not much more).
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
10/17/07, 10:37 AM
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