Making HoW instant would be useful for paladins in general. It's got a lot of problems besides the cast time though, as it seems to have a confused design. 1.5 cast time means IIRC it scales less than a shock does with +damage, it isn't effected by physical stats (AP/str), and it uses physical crit instead of spell crit (which is why its crits do 2x damage). I think shocks scale with a 2/3.5 co-efficient, while HoW is a 1.5/3.5.

We've been experimenting with a Ret paladin in raids(one of our holy paladins has very good ret gear, including a stormherald) and we're...surprised and pleased at the results, although he will in all likelihood be going back to holy.

More than I expected, to say the least.

Both spells should be receiving +dmg based on 1.5/3.5 seconds (all instants do except Ice Lance). As for HoW, it is 1 sec cast, not 1.5, but only Ice Lance gets less than 1.5/3.5 damage coefficient.

Actually, I just looked it up, and there is one other exception besides Ice Lance - Avenger's Shield. Everything else with a coefficient isn't a "cast" spell, but an on-hit mechanic like Flametongue Weapon or SoR.

Being able to throw HoW into the rotation at under 20% would be really nice if it didn't reset your weapon timer and have a huge mana/damage cost.

Remove improved sanc aura and include it into the original talent. Replace the 2 points with "Empowered Wrath"

To help improve ret in raids remove the weapon swing reset and make it proc a nifty effect for your group depending on what judgment you have on the target (I'm a very strong supporter furthering the judgment system):

JotC: Return a 5/10% haste buff to your group for 12 seconds
JoW: Return a 5/10% spellD/healing buff to your group for 12 seconds
JoL: Restore 3/6% health to your group over 6 seconds
JoJ: Return a 5/10% threat reduction buff to your group for 12 seconds


This would further the interactiveness of a ret paladin, and help put them into a melee group as well as povide additional utility in casual 5 mans. Only being useful under 20% on a target, so its not something drastically changing.

Avenger's Shield is actually consistent as well, it's not a single target spell. If anything, it's a bit higher than expected.

I just made 5min movie of our Gruul kill http://files.filefront.com/Gruul+Ret...einfo.html/1/1

Here is WWS from that fight: http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/wow/ww....07/index.html



Im sure thats known info for many here, but still there are plenty of people who dont understand or refuse to understand the effect of Retribution Paladin in raids.

if you wanted to play the overall contribution game, you should remove the damage from your WF attacks, UR, SoE. My point is ret paladins can produce good raid damage under the right circumstances, but so could a sword/mace rogue.

Current raid dps is apples and oranges when it comes to groups, and who deserves what spot and such. I'd like to see how much you could add in a group alone, or just with battleshout. (Would show pure additional raid damage, although even then variables like amount of melee classes come in)

That would be the case if I was way under our other dps players. But as I was at same % level I could throw that conclusion in the table. And you can also see that for example Moonkin contribution is pretty high. Im not trying to claim that they are worse, not at all. More of retribution being equal. I have hard time understanding your claims of my damage contribution not being the result of my actual damage dealed + effects that I add to raid that increase their dmg (+2% party damage and +3% raid crit).

What I do in raids? Im not there to fill up DPS slot when it isnt needed. I wear my healing gear and heal always when it makes sense to do so. Today we had classic example of this at Solarian. Few wipes and conclusion was that we lacked damage. I equiped my Retri gear and went deal the necesary damage to kill Astromancer. Happy ending? Thats what I see the true purpose of Retribution Paladins. I can heal very well, and deal damage if needed.

I am apple and orange for you.

I see alot of people trying to justify the use of retribution paladins in raids but i honestly believe some of them are only thinking of themselves.

For a raid group to live and breathe it needs a certain amount of tanks and healers (of any class).

DPS is generally easy to come by and having enough tanks and healers for raids is always important. Very few fights in the game require a set amount of DPS before the raid wipes and those that are in this category are doable without having that retribution paladin adding extra dps.

There's also a situation around with most raid groups being squashed from 40 man's to 25's and having excesss in most area's. How do you ask that rogue you have raided with for 2 years to step down and let a paladin take his place in raids because the paladin might just contribute that bit more?

Many people play the game specced a way in which they probably dont enjoy fully but they do so because they want to see the raid group they are part of and friends they have played together with for a very long time succeed.

Retribution paladins appear to be in a very good situation as far as this thread seems to indiciate, They can and do add alot of utility and comparable dps to raids.

But ask yourself if you could do that without those healers behind you keeping the raid alive.

Really all im trying to say is that people dont want retribution paladins over holy because retribution is bad but because of what people need.

If you are lucky enough to have room in your raid group to DPS as a paladin then fantastic, But i honestly cant see that much wrong with retribution as a talent spec, along with moonkin they work very well if your raid group can cater to it (Just like any other spec).

My opinion was taken from raiding with retribution paladins and moonkins and arms warriors and every other oddball spec you could think of. I hope it wasn't put across wrongly.

I don't really see the validity of that argument Paa.

If you're raid is running 2 tanks, 7 healers and 16 dps are you really worse off bringing a ret pally as your 16th and being able to shift to 2/15/8 on an encounter if you feel healing-light?


It's the same argument used to justify DPS warriors and feral druids. Some fights you need 3, 4 maybe 5 tanks in an extreme case so having your 'hybrid' tank job is seen as acceptable. This type of 'hybrid' has been acceptable as far back as raiding goes in this game. Why run a raid with 8 healers if you can run 7 and a hybrid and have that hybrid capable to shifting to the raids needs in the same way as the tank hybrids?

It seems you missed my point: it was about maxing raid damage in a 25 man setting. Looking at the WWS the moonkin didn't have a stacked group, just mana/heroism (maybe I'm blind, but it doesn't seem he got mana tide). I know ret paladins have decent raid buffs, but, your damage is HIGHLY based on what buffs you get, whether it be an enh shaman giving UR, SoE, 1% spell hit, heroism, or a warrior with BS.

The only thing that can change raid leader's minds is proof that a paladin will increase raid damage MORE than bringing a well geared dps rogue in the same group. That is why I asked for a test of damage being in an external group (but once again even then it's affected by external forces, like the arms physical debuff or surviv hunter). I support ret paladins getting needed changes, but WWS of fights like gruul and mag (cubes mainly) don't make good parses. A fight like kael would be nice, you get a really really nice two handed axe, and it has different aspects, like AOE and single target damage.

Are you also trying to say your solarian kill was totally because of you doing ret damage?
Well technically you'd be better off subbing in a healing spec healer, but your point of a spur of the moment gear change is valid. I find that when I'm enh, my healing doesn't suffer much at all if I chain pot. 8 healers is a bit much, expect to see most guilds who are progressing far into ssc/tk/bt/hyjal to look at bringing 6 or 7 at most.

The information is right there. Both of the rogues in that raid had Sanctity Aura, so it's a pretty good guess that they were in the same group with the paladin. Histamiini (the higher-performing of the two) had 1007 dps to Timangi's 806. So if you cloned Histamiini and put him in the same raid in Timangi's slot, he'd do 200dps more direct damage, and you'd have to compare that to the other benefits Timangi brings to the raid.

EDIT: Unless there's some kind of rogue-rogue combinatorial damage mechanics I'm not aware of.

And you will bit your tounge knave! Ret for life! Screw holy!

Slightly less than 200 DPS in fact, since without his having sanctity aura and JotC on the target he wouldnt reaching the giddy heights of 1007.

We use a Ret pally in our raids, and he does a fairly good job. He does have a problem with aggro tho, it would seem that something in the pala repertoir actually does higher than listed threat, because he kept getting hatefully struck by gruul when he was fourth on ktm.

Oh, and sanct aura is a target debuff, not a group buff.. its raid wide.

As far as i see it, the biggest problem with ret pallys apart from their aggro generation, is the fact that they DONT bring anything to a DPS group. As such classes that benefit more, or give group buffs, will probably take his spot in a DPS group to maximise raid dps.

Huh?

Sanctity Aura is a group buff. (Sanctified) Judgement of the Crusader is a target debuff.

This is the kind of post you should have made in the first place. In a thread full of people who are actively discussing something and exploring alternatives, simply throwing your opinion out in a haphazard fashion and quoting huge blocks of text is, to be blunt, rude. If you disagree, that's great, say why (as you did here). At least contribute to the conversation.

That being said, I have concerns about counting 'contributed dps' as your own. Yes, the buffs are nice and they are undoubtedly good. However, when you start rolling that snowball down the hill, you have to be prepared for everyone to demand that their 'contributed dps' be recognized. For example, Shadowpriests and Warlocks would be reasonable to demand that the damage you do with the mana they provide be considered in part attributed to them.

My point is not that considering the overall raid effect is bad per se, but rather that you must be very careful in doing so. Saying "I do x dps personally and contribute y dps to the raid" is all fine and good, but if you say "I did x+y dps" it's another thing entirely. While you can logically argue that the person who's buffs is partially responsible for some damage, it would be a logistical nightmare if we began assigning partial fractions of damage based on buffs, debuffs, etc. I would prefer paladins to say "I can do this much dps competitively while providing these buffs" as opposed to the somewhat dubious methods that people appear to be exploring.

Personally? I think ret is worthy of a raid spot (perhaps not more than one, though) based on refreshing judgments and high potential personal dps. Yes, it's very gear and group dependent, but everything is both of those, to some extent.

The problem with this and your initial post is they both lack content. If you are going to post your opinion and observations, it is advisable to also post facts and data. I'm glad you've "looked up the numbers" but providing them as others have in this thread would give your post merit. If you make a statement, be prepared to back it up.

People in this thread are providing information, analyses and logs. You are providing one-liners and unsubstantiated opinions. I think that's the very definition of "useless". It doesn't advance the discussion in any meaningful way.

Here's an example to help you understand:

"Paladins can issue a lot damage to be sure, but they're not able to output a sustainable amount of DPS that would put them anywhere close to a warrior, rogue or even shaman."

Why? What are the issues you are observing? How does this gel with the DPS meters analyzed in this thread? How does a warrior overcome these? What changes to the class could be made make this observed situation better?

This is the level of discourse, people posting in this thread expect and that you should provide if you want anyone to take you seriously.

And that's considered useless on this forum.

This thread is full of constructive discussions about how a Ret Paladin can offer something of merit to a raid, but in order to really contribute to DPS, he/she requires ideal gear and a great group. There is also a very good bit of theorycrafting behind ideas that could help Paladins out in the future of raiding if they were to get "tweaked" by Blizzard.

For the most part, people have kept it positive. All opinions against the idea have been backed up with numbers, not simple statements like "Other people have done all the work to disprove you and I am far too lazy to read the thread or do something similar, so I will just agree and say "Spec holy or get out"". This long post, although it should dance it's way around the grammar infractions, is nothing more than a drawn out version of your first post.

I am welcome to anyone who thinks Ret isn't raid viable (heck, until we get some sort of aggro reduction, and maybe another small change to mechanics, I remain holy), however random nay-saying with little to no real back-up should best be left to the level 4 trolls on the Blizzard Paladin forums.

Soulstone!

I believe that aggro reduction is already taken by Fury warriors.