As far as use of Ret Paladins goes, in some ways I don't think it matters what blizzard calculates the DPS of Sanctified Crusader as. We're the ones who will use them, so what matters is what we calculate Sanctified Crusader's DPS as. This of course ignores Blizzard's ability to change the function of the talent, etc.

On that note, a curiosity question. In the calculations represented here http://forum.celestial.st/viewtopic.php?t=266, Ret Paladin DPS is calculated against Rogue DPS, as if the option was trading one Ret Paladin for one Rogue. However, I'm somewhat skeptical as to whether that's how this works out for guilds, especially Horde side. Depending on the circumstances, I suspect the tradeoff is compared between a Holy or Prot Paladin, instead of a Ret Paladin. As for why, I'd hazard a guess that people are much less likely to trade players around than to alternate specs, because training a new player and leveling up then gearing out a class is far more than just switching your gear style and talent spec.

So here's the question. For the guilds that have seriously considered using a Ret Paladin, which sort of comparison did you make? Were you comparing the Ret DPS against another DPS class, or where you comparing it with the opportunity cost of that Paladin? Did your guild end up using a Ret DPS Paladin? And what are the circumstances of your guild's class balance? Do you have a lot of Paladins? Is your guild Horde side, and just now getting to use Paladins?

Looking further ahead, might it make more sense, instead of buffing Ret DPS, to utilize how people think of Paladins as defensive/buffing classes, and give Retribution unique tools more appropriate to that role?

Previous to the expansion when the 2.0 patch hit my current guild was making its way into Naxx (Not to far however). Some of the questions that we asked ourselves when trying to decide whether or not to bring a dedicated retribution paladin were the most obvious:

- What areas are lacking currently?
-- Is healing covered?
-- Is raid damage lower then we would like it to be?

- What would a Retribution paladin bring to the table for us?
-- Would he be willing to spec specifically for PVE?
-- Would he be able to contribute to the damage we were looking for?
-- What could he contribute to the damage of those around him?
-- Does s/he have the gear to help fill the roll?
--- Does s/he have the healing gear available if need be?

We actually had decided to bring a ret paladin. We also gave him one of the axes to increase caster DPS by 15% on proc (i forget the name off the top of my head). He fizzled out eventually, and no one else really expressed an interest.

Also, think about the other paladins in your guild, many may feel resentment for being left out of the opportunity. Also if you choose the wrong one, chances are your guilds opinion will be tainted for a very long time and would be much less likely to approve of having another in the event that the one you choose is well... plain horrible.

If anything, the DPS warrior will have dramatically lower mitigation due to the berserker stance debuff. There shouldn't be a significant difference in terms of HP, we both wear roughly the same gear.

The DPS warrior has a much better threat profile, to be sure.

The thing about ret paladins is that it's very hard to quantify their overall contribution to the raid. Things I like about having a ret paladin in the raid:

- One more paladin Blessing
- Group aura
- All judgments can be sustained
- constant stuns where applicable
- +3% crit from all sources on the mob
- "Oh-shit" healing support
- Nightfall DPS contribution (this + the retadin's own DPS output more than equals another DPS class that would replace the retadin)

If the player is good, they will carry their weight and support the raid.

"Same gear" means about a 1200 health advantage to the warrior. This is one of the popular complaints from us protection paladin types.

My current pet ideas for changes to Ret paladins to improve their raid viability are to add an additional effect to Sanctified Crusader that increases the effect of other judgements on the target (say, 5-10% per talent point) and add a "Blessing of Fury" talent at the 30 point level that transfers a percentage of the paladin's threat from damage done to its target. The first expands on the "support the other paladins" idea from Crusader Strike and the second both deals with the aggro generation issue and provides a unique, powerful group benefit that requires the paladin to hit things to take advantage of.

My impression from (normal mode) 5 man runs is that Ret paladins could use a dps boost too, but I imagine any attempt to boost sustained damage at the cost of burst dps would meet with endless screaming from the PvP faction, and I can't see Blizzard increasing it without a tradeoff somewhere else.

I'd like to see Ret paladins be more desirable to other players than they seem to be now. I'm concerned that most raiding Ret paladins are there more because they fall into the "rather have a good player with a bad spec than a bad player with a good spec" category rather than because people really want the Ret talents, since that leads to people feeling like they should respec to help the group.

I largely agree with you. There is no compelling obvious reason to bring a ret paladin to a raid, let alone two of them. There needs to be some compelling reason that encourages dedundancy.

Eh? A second prot warrior can tank adds or offtank a boss. A second holy priest/resto druid can heal his group or heal the MT as well.

Whereas a second Ret paladin brings nothing. Refreshing judgements, Sanctified Crusader and Improved Sanctity Aura to the MT group can all be done by the first paladin, and the second paladin doesn't provide anything at all.

The second Ret paladin brings yet another blessing, another aura, and if he has a brain, more healing. (Two CS's are also two chances at the refresh proc, if anyone truly cares about that)


The main "argument against" Ret paladins in a raid setting is not that they don't contribute *anything* - it's that there's supposedly another class/spec that can better use that slot.

Would you take that 2nd Prot warrior over your first Feral druid? The 2nd Holy Priest over your first Shadow priest? (In a 10 man raid? In a 25 man raid?)

Only reason to bring more than one priest is if they are shadow. Holy priests don't scale at all, holy paladins are better healers and have better buffs.

Wouldn't the easiest solution to allow vindication to affect raid bosses?

I would hate if they tuned bosses around an ability like Vindication would potentially make them unkillable if whoops your Ret paladin can't be on for some reason. Currently other hybrids while useful don't break your raid if they can't be there and there is other classes to replace them. Something like Vindication would easily be a huge difference if they gave the mob any serious amount of Str/Agi.

This is really one of the biggest reasons I refuse to respec to Holy, even though at times I enjoy that playstyle. I'm simply too obstinate to yield, and doing so "feels like" it would be nothing but taking the easy way out. Our only serious Prot paladin respecced to Holy recently, so I feel like I'm the last holdout now... Which does nothing but make me more determined not to change back.

I am sorry, but 'what'? This is one of the most retarded things I have read on this board since, ever.

This is what annoys me so much about the attitude most hybrids display, that somehow playing an offspec expecially an underpowered one, makes you a better player, or makes you somehow more special and more unique, because you are willing to work against the grain just to perform adequately - or that somehow, you outperform people who are playing with the better specs than you even though you intentionally gimp yourself.

Ret spec just is not worthy of a raid slot right now. I am sure you will regale us with tales about how even with a hybrid spec you outheal every other healer in the raid, you are not being a unique snowflake by staying with a shitty spec. If I had a gold every time I read on some hybrid thread about feral druids who bragged about how they outhealed every other healer in their raid even though they were spec'd with a hybrid feral/moonkin spec I'd have a stable of epic mounts.

It is your game time, and how you spec is completely up to you and your guild leadership, sosl of staying spec'd ret just to be different is mindboggling stupid. The reason most people are spec'd with cookie cutter specs isn't because they are non-thinking cretins, it is because they are trying to maximise their ability to contribute.

No, it means I raid less than I'd like to and play a resto alt until I can use what I'd prefer.

Edit: and I've had the opportunity to be present and performing my chosen role for a number of our first kills in karazhan, which I am quite thankful for.

Your post is certainly the rudest thing I've ever seen on this forum.

I don't care if somene says they want to stay ret because they enjoy the playstyle. More power to them, everyone should enjoy what he does in his gametime. If you are staying ret because you have limited playtime and just want to be able to grind when you solo, or be good at solo PvP, that's also perfectly fine. If you want to stay ret because you want to make ret work, and you are trying to min/max because that's the role you enjoy in game, keep trying.

What I find boggling is insiting on staying ret because ret is underpowered and you refuse to yield and fit with the non-thinking masses. That's like a priest refusing to switch to use heal/greater heal after the priest revamp, because I refuse to use the more powerful spell and I am going to make the gameplay tougher for me so I can be a unique snowflake.

I thought there was a pretty wide consensus in this thread that ret paladins were not worth a raid slot in this thread, but that's not really what I was debating in those last few replies.

What I was debating was that regardless of the power of ret paladins, choosing to remain ret just because everyone else is going holy and you want to stay different is masochistic. If you are staying ret because your guild is covered on healers, or because you think ret is very powerful, or because whatever reason, cool, whatever floats your boat. Staying ret to be different and because you refuse to be the same as everyone else is stupid.

I am dragging this further offtopic, so this will be my last reply on this derail hopefully.

Going into more detail about why ret paladins are not worthy of a raid spot IMO:
Paladins, regardless of their role/spec bring blessings and aura as their contribution. The question that needs to be asked is not if a ret paladin is better than a random DPS class in a raid, but if a holy paladin + a random DPS class is better than a non-paladin healer + a ret paladin. What does a ret paladin bring to a raid that is unique, and other paladins do not? 6% extra healing on the main-tank, and 3% extra crit for the rest of the raid, plus refreshing judgments, and very very below par DPS with no aggro control. The main-tank groups are already pretty crowded, as at least for my guild they tend to include: Shaman, Warlock, Warrior, Paladin for devotion aura, 2nd warrior or ToL druid.
Compare the different combinations. Paladin healing/dps, priest/shaman/druid healing/dps. In every case, every other class offers a lot more to their group when they are actually dealing damage than paladins. Ret paladins are only worthy of a spot if you consider that the only way you can get an extra paladin into your raid for a blessing that is required is if you get him as a DPS class, versus replacing another healer with a paladin who can bless.

I am a little allergic to subscribing to an idea just because there is a wide consensus. In so many cases I've seen wide consuses (consesii? :P ) being put to shame by someone actually going through the numbers or doing extensive testing. Since Viludin's calculations shows that switching a rogue for a retadin in his example will yield a net gain of dps, either you need to show that his calculations are wrong, or come up with some other reason for saying a retadin is a waste of a raid spot.

Why do you need to ask that question? Because of the limited paladin supply?

This doesn't make sense to me. You are saying that despite the suggestion that a retadin giving a raid a net dps gain provided above, a retadin is only worth it if you can't replace a healer and you need an extra blessing?

See, what makes this sound less rude is the lack of an angry tone, and the absence of words like "retarded".

Do the numbers on 1 shadow priest versus 1 warlock.
Or 1 enhancement shaman vs 1 rogue.

The numbers are not a reliable source of information, because it ignores the issue of how many people you can fit in 1 group, you cant simply give every class a big list of buffs and run numbers because you ignore how you actualyl fit people into groups to get those buffs in the first place. A typical 25man raid might have 1 group of melee dps:
rogue/rogue/shaman/hunter/warrior

How are you going to put paladin in there without decreasing the dps of the group ?
Taking out the warrior/shaman/hunter will impact the dps of the other 4 far more than +3% crit, and taking out a rogue means that rogue loses BS, UR, TSA, WF totem and SoE totem; his dps would fall by far more than anyting 3% crit would replace even on 5/6 clasess. And if you put a paladin in some other random group, his dps will drop massively from losing the shaman, hunter and warrior buffs. Sure you could put him in with a shadow priest, but then your warlock/mage dps will suffer, and you want to get the most from his healing aura right ?

So the average ret paladin might end up in the main tank group to make use of his aura, and how many dps buffs will he be getting in a group like this:
Warlock (imp)/ warrior (commanding shout)/ paladin(devotion/resistance aura)/shaman (resto with imp totems)/ ret paladin/ sanctity aura.

In that sort of group he is losing trueshot aura, battleshout and unleashed rage, and wont have a shadow priest in there to bump his mana so he can actually last the whole fight. You cant simply fill a raid with shadow priests, feral druids, and ret paladins. While they all give raid damage synergies, they ultimately rely on there being core dps classes to boost. That is to say, sanctified crusader means nothing if you dont already have 4/5 high dps classess to boost with 3% crit. You rely on the efficacy of everyone else to promote your own contributed dps; the more rogues/mages/warlocks you replace with paladins/druids/warlocks/shaman the less dps each of those offspec provides from their raid buff.

The major issue is this:
The group benefits of a ret paladin do not require him to dps to his full potential.
A shadow priest, or an enhancement shaman must be without pause to get the most from VE/VT or UR, a paladin needs to melee a mob every 20seconds. There is absolutely no reason not to have a ret paladin healing between those melee swings as opposed to dpsing unless you are healer heavy. And even if there was did, the poor dps from the ret paladin is not outweighed by sanctified crusader or blessing of salvation (lets be realistic here, any 25man raid will have at least 2 paladins, so that covers kings and might/wisdom, as a 4th paladin you only add BoL, because your holy paladins really need to be more mana efficient ...)

Well, if you had read the calculation you'd have seen that it is a comparison between a rogue and a retadin. So the only thing it supports at the moment is that a retadin is a valid replacement for a rogue.

As for healing aura, that hasn't come into the comparison yet, and Mearis said that it would probably be replaced with ToL aura instead (though I haven't seen any numbers of the +healing/spirit vs 6% incoming heals, a druid friend suggested that it is unlikely that a druid will have the required spirit to beat the 6% aura).

When it comes to mana efficiency (your lack of shadow priest argument) Viludin's post has that covered too: "loosing around 56mp5, which is easily manapotable indefinately. Using higher rank + judgement would boost the dps by about ~50, double that if the target can be stunned, but isnt sustainable in a long fight."

So you are the first one to say Viludin's calculations are wrong? Would you like to point out where? Here's the link again so you can easily check it out: http://forum.celestial.st/viewtopic.php?t=266

His math for paladin DPS seems fine. However his buffed ret paladin does less DPS than your average unbuffed rogue.

If you use the rogue spreadsheet and plug in some random 5man gear and a decent spec, a rogue by his lonesome can easily do 750 DPS. Putting him in the slot where the ret paladin is (to get BS, enh Shaman buffs, and the same blessings) can give a DPS increase of 350 for low-end gear. If you give the rogue some decent epics then buffed he can gain close to 500 DPS for being in that party.

Seems to me that the best you can call ret pally DPS is essentially a wash, if not a slight decrease depending on level of gear. What you do gain over a pure DPS class is ret utility, but how much does sanctity aura matter in the melee DPS group? Sanctified Crusader is just trying to keep the paladin's DPS competative (which it seems to do a ... well, an OK job of doing, sort of). Refreshing Judgements is nice but hardly overwhelming.

I think the spec needs something else to make it more attractive in raids. In 5mans it's even worse IMO. There you're talking about losing hundreds of DPS from the rogue getting the enh shaman/BS warrior buffs so that the pally can match the rogue unbuffed. Does the 3% crit to two other DPS classes really make up for that in a 5man? I seriously doubt it. None of our rerolled paladins are ret at endgame.