While I can't speak from a DPS point of view, from a tanking point of view I find rank 3 to be very usable in a lower mana situation. It's cheap enough to not be that large an impact on your mana, while still getting enough bonus from spell damage to do a fair amount of damage. Of course, as Retadin you probably have less spell damage than a geared Protadin.
Rank 1 is 120 mana, which isn't much as long as you are eating some heals during the fight. It's not a huge DPS boost either, like 25-35 maybe, but not insignificant. The top rank is so expensive at 660 mana that the only fight's I can really use it on are ones where you are taking a ton of damage and eating a lot of heals, and even then it's tough to keep up chain potting. But it is like ~120 more DPS
Generally speaking if you have an excess of mana while sustaining your better dpm spells you'll benefit from incorporating Consecrate into your cycle. For best DPM just download DrDamage and check for yourself.
Rank 1 is 120 mana, which isn't much as long as you are eating some heals during the fight. It's not a huge DPS boost either, like 25-35 maybe, but not insignificant. The top rank is so expensive at 660 mana that the only fight's I can really use it on are ones where you are taking a ton of damage and eating a lot of heals, and even then it's tough to keep up chain potting. But it is like ~120 more DPS
JotC affects all ranks equally, and I can push 80~ damage per tick (80 DPS) in my +dmg gear.
In my melee gear, it's close to 50 per tick or so (but I have a +dmg focus with my gear/enchants, so I'm not typical).
That DPS is single target, too, so in any multi-target AoE environment, Consecrate is worth the mana to cast.
Originally Posted by Symbul
Generally speaking if you have an excess of mana while sustaining your better dpm spells you'll benefit from incorporating Consecrate into your cycle. For best DPM just download DrDamage and check for yourself.
I'm pretty sure that DrDamage has the wrong coefficient for R1 consecrate. The post-nerf coefficient was around 47% by my tests, but DrDamage says it's in the 30s.
I'm also annoyed that it calculates the damage of SoC based on the seal procs rather than the judgement in the most recent builds. (I personally find the judgement damage more informative, and that's what it used to do.)
Realistically when could we see large ret spec changes? 2.3 seems pretty far off but the only logical time. Im growing rather tired of LOL RET SPEC talk, Anything related to ret buff leads to "hahah paladins arent made for dmg"
I wouldn't get your hopes up too high.. paladin's have been asking for a couple of more effective base combat abilities since the implementation of the seal/judgement system in beta.
What I find fascinating is that death knights will have a unique and interesting combat system, it's going to be interesting how it turns out. All the standard rpg combat systems are in use by other classes (rage, casting/mana, combat points etc). Anyone who's played a ret paladin knows how stupid buffing your auto attack and having to cast 2 spells to do a direct damage ability is.
If the deathknight combat system turns our pretty poor, you know maybe they are just out of good ideas for a combat system (unlikely).. However, if the deathknight system turns out awesome (quite likely) why can't they spend some time of creating a decent combat system for paladins???
My view of it all still is that during alpha/beta they realized warriors were just too boring so gave them a bunch of abilities you'd normally see paladin's having (shield bashes, charge), then they realized woah we can't give any of the traditional diablo paladin abilities to paladins now because they'd be way to similar to warriors, lets throw together something new for the paladin, crap we're out of time.. oh well.
It's pretty good times when you're rocking those daily kill xzy quests as 41 holy/20 prot in your 1000 +dmg gear killing 1 mob per minute and going oom after 3 mobs while the resto shaman just over there is killing 3-4 per minute with about 50% mana left.
Ok ok so it's not quite that bad but our baseline combat options are horrible consisting of melee with a weak seal, judge it every 10sec and go oom using consercrate.
Last edited by Ragnor : 08/20/07 at 4:17 AM.
Reason: typos
The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.
Yea the paladin class really hasn't really changed in the 2 years the game has been out. I really don't see anything that will change ret for raiding in this expansion but the next expansion should be the perfect time to switch the paladin class up.
With the upcoming Haste changes, if they hit the live server which is seems as they will how does everyone feel they will reduce the effectiveness of Retribution Paladins in raids? Since my entire gear build has been based on Haste and Armor Penetration the melee Haste changes will definitely affect overall DPS but will they cut into it enough that it will make Ret even more useless.
Yea the paladin class really hasn't really changed in the 2 years the game has been out. I really don't see anything that will change ret for raiding in this expansion but the next expansion should be the perfect time to switch the paladin class up
The class has changed a ton since release. The talents pre-talent rework in vanilla, for example, were incredibly different and in different spots.
TBC was the perfect opportunity to change things up, and they did, but they still produced (largely) inadequate tanking and DPS trees which they have yet to fix. For all the fantastic things Blizzard does, their glacial pace at producing patches/changes is legendary.
Having spent some time on the math, I would liken the value of a Ret Paladin to that of a Survival Hunter - overall lower personal DPS, but incredible raid-wide synergies.
Given the realistic likelihood of your Holy Paladins running in to keep JoW/JoL up, I would just about bring a Ret Paladin for that alone.
As a paladin who loves holy, I still wish that ret wasnt such a joke tree. The fact that Crusader Strike a) sucks and b) involves a full commitment to the tree really kills paladins trying to be ret but also not wanting to be crap at other things.
If I didnt need the prot talents for PVP, I would thinkin about going 3x/0/x to try to get Imp Sanct Aura because that is pretty neat. Improving Might is a moot point because my guild utterly lacks in melee dps...as in, we have 2 not counting tanks.
Isn't crusader strike getting its cool down lowered back down the point of 2 refresh chances per judgement?
Jowisdom staying up all the time makes some mana dump dps builds( ultra high damage at the right gear levels ) way more viable. High arcane damage mages, Marks hunters with full shot rotations. Also depending on the fight you might want to/be able to move shadow priests around to benefit healers more so then dps on some encounters.
Also JoLight + melee + feral druids is alot of passive healing would completely remove the need to heal melee on some aoe damage fights.
Isn't crusader strike getting its cool down lowered back down the point of 2 refresh chances per judgement?
Jowisdom staying up all the time makes some mana dump dps builds( ultra high damage at the right gear levels ) way more viable. High arcane damage mages, Marks hunters with full shot rotations. Also depending on the fight you might want to/be able to move shadow priests around to benefit healers more so then dps on some encounters.
Also JoLight + melee + feral druids is alot of passive healing would completely remove the need to heal melee on some aoe damage fights.
The new CS doesn't help mana. It hurts it. It hurts it alot.
Right now CS is 236 mana and on a 10s cooldown. Next patch it will be 283 on 6s. So it goes from 23.6mps to 47.2mps. That's double the mps, and a difference of 23.6. Keeping jow on the mob does nowhere near the 23.6 increase in cs mana cost. It'll do around 10mps, and you'll still net over 10mps short of now. So no extra consecrates or anything else for the paladins.
But yeah, it will help everyone else's mana efficiency.
Well alliance will be using Rank 1 SoC exclusively next patch, probably... Assuming raid buffed AP and melee crit when you have Judgement and CS cool downs up it is always going to be a better choice to use CS (unless the boss has extreme armor).
We aren't going to have much time for JoC anyway using CS every cooldown.
I can't comment on the situation for blood elfs, since I've never used SoB/JoB.
The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.
Well alliance will be using Rank 1 SoC exclusively next patch, probably... Assuming raid buffed AP and melee crit when you have Judgement and CS cool downs up it is always going to be a better choice to use CS (unless the boss has extreme armor).
We aren't going to have much time for JoC anyway using CS every cooldown.
I can't comment on the situation for blood elfs, since I've never used SoB/JoB.
Since JoB damage is based entirely spell damage, it will probably be much the same. Focus more on melee stats for Crusader Strike / Seal procs, ignore judgements.
It's been said before that Ret paladins can assume 1 spelldamage is roughly equal to 1AP. So for purposes of determining an appropriate level of gear/stats for raiding, could total spelldamage be added to AP totals?
After raiding Black Temple last night and finding myself threat capped at what felt like a very very low amount I have a question to anyone running Omen or Retribution spec'd or even Main Tanks for that fact. What is your average TPS on bosses? The simple fact that I see videos and demonstrations of other Ret paladins going way harder then I can go which tells me I am hitting my threat cap based on the tanks TPS is low and is only being discovered because I'm ret and can grab aggro on just about any fight if I want or I should be doing something else to minimize my threat generation.
It's been said before that Ret paladins can assume 1 spelldamage is roughly equal to 1AP. So for purposes of determining an appropriate level of gear/stats for raiding, could total spelldamage be added to AP totals?
It'd be a reasonable assumption, but remember that it assumes you're making solid use of your judgements and/or consecrate. (Downranked JoCs/Consecrates get reduced coefficients now, too)
You could look at your actual "DPS cycle" and determine how +dmg compares to AP based on your playstyle. Or you could simply adjust your playstyle/ability use to maximize the +dmg you have.
So we tried our first ret pally in SSC last night. I promised our best Paladin that he could go ret if we downed Vashj and we did.
And I made a terrible mistake. I treated him as a healer. We usually run SSC with 8 healers. And having him heal instead of DPS resulted in him doing terrible heals and terrible DPS. So wipes on stuff that shouldn't have happened. For example he was the pally tank on Morogrim, but he couldn't build up enough aggro now. I didn't consider that.
That was entirely my bad and I won't make that mistake again.
This is the common mistake most guilds make and mine made the same mistake they treated me as a healer at times, Now personally during trash I would rather heal it just helps get the trash done that much faster. But on a boss when I'm asked to heal the results are about as common as asking an Enhancement Shaman to heal, Sure we can get the job done but it sure isn't going to be pretty.
Being Horde is pretty bad for DPS as a Paladin, Shade of Akama last night from start to end I went as hard as I could because I wanted to see in a no threat situation what my DPS would cap at but instead of getting quality numbers I got a quality res from a Druid because I took extra damage from something else and Seal of Blood DPS'd myself to death. Generally you need someone to babysit a Paladin using Seal of Blood I didn't get that last night and because of it I died not once but twice. Pretty sure natural assumption of anyone in the raid that can heal is " he has mana he can heal " If and when you give a Paladin a chance to DPS treat them like a Warrior not like a Paladin.
Well, the Alliance don't get a seal similar to Blood (melee-based rather than spell-based) besides Command anyway. If you're in a situation where the healers are busy, you have to go with Command. It's not a disadvantage for you compared to Alliance, it's a disadvantage compared to your personal maximum theoretical damage.
The other problem we had when our pally went Ret is that he's usually the pally doing JoL. Because of this we had to choose between sacrificing the 3% crit vs the heal. JoL seemed liked a no brainer to me because he's hitting the mob all the time. No other pally puts up judgments in our raids usually. I forgot he couldn't put up both at the same time.
That's another thing we didn't think about ahead of time.
I dont quite get your claims of bad healing as Retri. Do you spec for 3% hit in prot and ignore +12% healing, improved lay and aura mastery from holy? If so, thats huge loss for your total raid contribution when it comes to healing on healing dependant bosses and meleeing on dps dependant ones. I have never had any problems healing TK/BT/Hyjal as holy/retri pala if Im assigned to oppropriate healing spot (Read: Naturally healing specced are best for most demanding healing spots). Only place where I really saw Retribution being lacking was our first Kael kill. But after that its been as solid as always. Either heal, or do dps, there are no middle way outside of using Improved lay at critical spot and chucking 1 Super mana. (Meaning dont try to do both if it aint some "hero-of-the-day"-situation).
08/17/07, 5:50 PM
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