My guild runs with 2 tanks and multiple OT capable people. We used to have 2 prot warriors, however now it is a prot warrior and prot paladin. The biggest buff an "extra"* pally brings is the extra blessing. 2% crit and 2% damage both are countered by the feral druids 5% crit aura, and with my guilds setups the melee groups are balanced with no space for a Retadin.
Now, for other guilds with space in melee groups, no prot pally, well maybe there is enough to justify it there, a lot simply depends on what classes a guild has and what sort of group setups they usually get in raids.
I don't buy the "melee who can sustain himself if need be". I would much rather have a rogue who could mitigate much better (CloS, evasion, Vanish) and do far better DPs.
I also cannot comment on the "increased judgement time" point as I am not sure if a prot pally can accomplish the same. If so, I would simply recommend everyone grabs themselves a prot pally as the range taunt and AE aggro holding abilities are just incredible and so very very useful.
*extra being defined as "Not holy"
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
So you think a Ret Paladin should have to chug mana pots to compete when enhancement and elemental shaman do not chug mana pots? When Warriors don't chug rage pots? When Feral Druids don't chug any pots? That's a bit silly.
When you aren't alive 100% of the time, that's obviously something to take into account. But saying I should have to chug mana pots to get a real measure of my DPS is absurd.
Feral druids don't chug pots because they cannot ;p In fairness, I fully expect all dps to chain pot on serious content when the fight is going to be hard, on trivial farm content like SSC is for you I can understand that everyone slacks though.
So you think a Ret Paladin should have to chug mana pots to compete when enhancement and elemental shaman do not chug mana pots? When Warriors don't chug rage pots? When Feral Druids don't chug any pots? That's a bit silly.
When you aren't alive 100% of the time, that's obviously something to take into account. But saying I should have to chug mana pots to get a real measure of my DPS is absurd.
I don't think we SHOULD need, but in it's current form we do.
Then our views of how to play a Retributionspecced Paladin in their current form differs. I think spending 30g or 20-30 min farming extra for a raid isn't a big deal and it's something i gladly do if it helps me compete.
Originally Posted by Mearis
Icing on the cake is having a feral druid, improved battleshout with solarian trinket, blood frenzy, expose armor from a hunter, improved weapon totems and unleashed rage, multiple heroisms, etc etc. For casters it might be moonkin, elemental shaman (s), multiple shadowpriests - I am sure you can get absolutely insane numbers from an arcane mage spamming arcane blast with two shadowpriests, two elemental shamans, but that's a completely retarded way of setting up groups since you are much better off spreading out the shamans/priests so more casters get that benefit...
I feel that as long as you get windfury then you are in decent shape, disbarring any fights where you are not given everything with cherry on top is completely unrealistic unless you are stacking your own raid for your benefit.
The first paragraph of things your listing contains nothing i've demanded, so i got no idea where your getting that from. I'm not asking for 1 shadowpriest, 1 enh shammy, 1 dps war and 1 feral + Ret.
I'm asking that he:
* Is alive the whole fight
* Has windfury up, and Strenght of earth probably
* Uses manapots (or just having 3 pallies in raid so he can get BoW)
* Uses consecration
And i don't think that's unrealistic, obviously you do and then we'll ust have to agree to dissagree.
I'm 100% sure if i had that gear i'd outperform him, since i'm performing round his level with MUCH worse gear, and Cromfel testifies to doing the same.
I don't see this going anywhere tho, so i'll just have to return when i've gotten all that gear and proove you wrong
Could you post some WWS of the same fights he did so we can examine the difference? Not damage meters, just WWS of some fights in SSC, with a list of all the buffs you had.
Got no WWS's at all since we don't use it much (slack), which i've allready pointed out. Which is why i said i'll come back later with some logs, snce further discussion without it is pointless.
Dunno when we'll run SSC next tho, we're kinda focusing on Hyjal/BT now that we got the whole guild attuned. But i'll try to remember logging it the next time we run if im there
So you think a Ret Paladin should have to chug mana pots to compete when enhancement and elemental shaman do not chug mana pots? When Warriors don't chug rage pots? When Feral Druids don't chug any pots? That's a bit silly.
When you aren't alive 100% of the time, that's obviously something to take into account. But saying I should have to chug mana pots to get a real measure of my DPS is absurd.
Elemental shaman, like most casters, DEFINITELY chug mana pots to max their raid dps.
Why wouldnt we need to use mana potions? Everyone does. Not to mention chaining Haste potions on every cooldown if mana isnt issue. Similiar problem to your comparing DPS in healing group to others in DPS boosting groups. Dont expect good results if you aint willing to do same as other DPS.
I personally always try to have Haste potion to be used same time as Avenging Wrath. Just to squeeze everything out of the increased damage.
Why wouldnt we need to use mana potions? Everyone does. Not to mention chaining Haste potions on every cooldown if mana isnt issue. Similiar problem to your comparing DPS in healing group to others in DPS boosting groups. Dont expect good results if you aint willing to do same as other DPS.
I personally always try to have Haste potion to be used same time as Avenging Wrath. Just to squeeze everything out of the increased damage.
I do exactly the same on even moderately challenging encounters, but if we are doing something utterly trivial and we aren't having a dps competition I"ll just be lazy and not bother with potions, which is probably why he was avoiding potting for something like SSC.
So you think a Ret Paladin should have to chug mana pots to compete when enhancement and elemental shaman do not chug mana pots? When Warriors don't chug rage pots? When Feral Druids don't chug any pots? That's a bit silly.
When you aren't alive 100% of the time, that's obviously something to take into account. But saying I should have to chug mana pots to get a real measure of my DPS is absurd.
Do healers chug mana pots? Ranged DPS?
Everything with a mana bar chugs mana pots for "max raid output". (Barring Enh. Shammy, maybe, due to JoW + Shamanistic Rage) Hunters do it. Mages do it. Warlocks, I'm not sure, but *some* pot is getting used every cooldown.
Also, I'd like to point out that your original "Ret is no good" post could have used a much different tone.
Terms like "absolutely atrocious", "borderline worthless", "a joke" ... don't tell us anything that the official WoW forums haven't already said (with zero accompanying content). Stick to the facts and let others come to their own conclusion.
If he wasn't in a melee dps group then that would explain a lot. However, I did see Unleashed Rage and Battle Shout at least in his Karathress WWS, which means enh shammy in his group. Those are usually the group buffs I get as well. Also LotP in the Leo WWS.
My point in posting my WWS was to show that Ret is underpowered and needs to be buffed. I do not see why you are fighting that. And I do not believe your retort of "you're just not good" holds any water. I also believe the only way to compare our DPS is side-by-side comparisons of our WWS on the same encounters.
I fully agree that Retribution needs some serious buffs to either personal DPS or group synergy buffs (and threat reduction too).
But you can't seriously think that you're giving an accurate portrayal of how Ret spec can do with your gear, can you? Your selling point is about how you have the best gear, weapon, etc - but then you're not flasked, you're not in the melee group (and didn't even point this out until far later in the thread). Hell, in the very first WWS report that you link, you weren't even ALIVE for portions of the fight (and you make no mention of that either until far later in the thread). I don't know whether it's just due to these factors, or whether your Ret inexperience also plays a large role, but the fact is that you are capable of doing much more DPS in that gear than your WWS reports are showing.
If you want to know why so many people are up in arms about your post instead of supporting it (because I think we do all agree Ret needs work), it's because you are posting these WWS logs as if they are indicative of what an experienced Ret Paladin would achieve in the best gear possible, and then concluding that the spec is "absolutely atrocious", "borderline worthless", etc. You aren't fighting for buffs to Ret spec, you're fighting to make sure that no raiding guilds take Ret Paladins (which doesn't hurt you at all since you're a Holy Paladin playing Ret for one day).
In conclusion, later on in the thread you even admit that you could likely do up to 1200 DPS (which sounds much more reasonable) and that Ret Paladin DPS "can be OK", but that Ret Paladins are not acceptable to the most absolute-bleeding-edge, Min/Max guilds. I will agree with that to some degree, but that is absolutely not the conclusion you draw in your original post or your identical thread on the WoW forums.
(Barring Enh. Shammy, maybe, due to JoW + Shamanistic Rage)
Enh shamans will if they want to shock at all. If all they do in a fight is drop their totems and stormstrike, shamanistic rage will keep them above water for the duration of a fight. If they're shocking at all, even if just once per stormstrike to consume the buff, they start needing potion use to keep up. And max shocking is still important, it's worth nearly 200 dps to shockspam, and it's still 80-100 to shock once following a stormstrike.
Enh shamans will if they want to shock at all. If all they do in a fight is drop their totems and stormstrike, shamanistic rage will keep them above water for the duration of a fight. If they're shocking at all, even if just once per stormstrike to consume the buff, they start needing potion use to keep up. And max shocking is still important, it's worth nearly 200 dps to shockspam, and it's still 80-100 to shock once following a stormstrike.
Ah, I'm not very familiar with the shaman class.
So pretty much any DPS class that uses a mana bar has the capability to blow through it faster than they can regenerate it. It's not surprising Ret paladins are no different. (I really, really resent the loss of mp5 on general Pally gear though)
Since recruiting a Ret Paladin, I've been very impressed by their performance.
Given comparable gear, they're not top-of-the-line DPS; I would say they operate at about 75% of a 'true' DPS class. The utility has been unmatched, though - having JoW and JoL available full-time in every fight, not to mention the 3% crit, has been exquisite.
My only remaining reservation is the threat issue - despite less-than-stellar DPS, Mr. Ret pushes a ton of threat. Early in Magtheridon last night, for example, he kept pulling the first Channeler off me (DPS went all-in after a single Misdirect, but no one else cleared my threat level). They're tauntable, so it was a non-issue, but I was definitely taken aback.
Do you have any SSC WWS? If you do I think we can do a better comparison. I don't think your DPS on Akama means anything with respect to my DPS on SSC bosses; the encounters are different and the bosses are different.
Channelers have little to no armor. Akama has little to no AC and is a completely different encounter.
To show you the lack of relevance of these two WWS for Akama, I will point you to Grant's WWS.
I think these numbers speak for themselves and discredit your argument based on your two WWS you just posted.
My point in posting my WWS was to show that Ret is underpowered and needs to be buffed. I do not see why you are fighting that. And I do not believe your retort of "you're just not good" holds any water. I also believe the only way to compare our DPS is side-by-side comparisons of our WWS on the same encounters.
I was gonna make a post like that, but good thing I read some of the replies.
Also you're forgetting that other people do well also. A warrior may normally do 1500, but you can't compare a paladin's 1500 on shade to the warrior's 1500 on say gurtogg. When I do 1500 on akama, the warrior is pulling 2.5-3k, and the rogues are pumping out 3500+. Same deal when I do 1400 on teron, the warrior is doing 2k easy, and the rogues are upwards of 3k.
Paladin DPS is THE worst melee dps by a HUGE margin, you will do half the dps of others. I'll repeat that again: HALF THE DPS. And in alot of cases paladins are just the worst dps overall, even worse than the shadow priests, frost mages, moonkins, or whatever other horrible dps class/spec you let in your raids.
Yeah I was going to mention that, 75% of a "true DPS" class is generous. Assuming all players are equally skilled you are looking at more like 50-60% of other melee class DPS.
So then when you consider 2 holy paladins and 1 Ret paladin wearing healing gear can maintain all judgments and give sanc aura and 3% crit, you see why despite the generally positive attitude in this thread here, the spec needs a lot of help.
Enh shamans will if they want to shock at all. If all they do in a fight is drop their totems and stormstrike, shamanistic rage will keep them above water for the duration of a fight. If they're shocking at all, even if just once per stormstrike to consume the buff, they start needing potion use to keep up. And max shocking is still important, it's worth nearly 200 dps to shockspam, and it's still 80-100 to shock once following a stormstrike.
An enh shaman with JoW can SS/shock every CD while blowing mana on fire nova totems till each SR. An early BT/hyjal shaman's SR can easily go from 1-100% mana while using abilities during it.
Amera pretty much sums up my entire gripe with the spec. My only concern with adding a threat reduction to every class (a significant one like soulshatter/invis/FD) will be completely threat turned encounters. No one wants to see firemaw tuned for threat meters (harder because we have them).
Why wouldnt we need to use mana potions? Everyone does. Not to mention chaining Haste potions on every cooldown if mana isnt issue. Similiar problem to your comparing DPS in healing group to others in DPS boosting groups. Dont expect good results if you aint willing to do same as other DPS.
I personally always try to have Haste potion to be used same time as Avenging Wrath. Just to squeeze everything out of the increased damage.
What I was doing was comparing my DPS to the DPS of other classes in a similar environment. The DPS warriors in our raid were not chugging haste potions. The hunters, mages, and shadow priest were not chugging mana potions. None of the DPS in the raid were using potions, at all. If I had chugged mana potions, come flasked, done everything possible and tied them, well what does that prove?
I think it would just cause a lot of silly people to come here and say "oh, see? Ret DPS CAN compete." That was my point in saying, "why should we have to chug mana potions?" I shouldn't have to chug mana potions to compete with feral druids/enhancement shaman/ele shaman who aren't putting in the same level of effort; that's ridiculous.
I fully agree that Retribution needs some serious buffs to either personal DPS or group synergy buffs (and threat reduction too).
But you can't seriously think that you're giving an accurate portrayal of how Ret spec can do with your gear, can you? Your selling point is about how you have the best gear, weapon, etc - but then you're not flasked, you're not in the melee group (and didn't even point this out until far later in the thread). Hell, in the very first WWS report that you link, you weren't even ALIVE for portions of the fight (and you make no mention of that either until far later in the thread). I don't know whether it's just due to these factors, or whether your Ret inexperience also plays a large role, but the fact is that you are capable of doing much more DPS in that gear than your WWS reports are showing.
If you want to know why so many people are up in arms about your post instead of supporting it (because I think we do all agree Ret needs work), it's because you are posting these WWS logs as if they are indicative of what an experienced Ret Paladin would achieve in the best gear possible, and then concluding that the spec is "absolutely atrocious", "borderline worthless", etc. You aren't fighting for buffs to Ret spec, you're fighting to make sure that no raiding guilds take Ret Paladins (which doesn't hurt you at all since you're a Holy Paladin playing Ret for one day).
In conclusion, later on in the thread you even admit that you could likely do up to 1200 DPS (which sounds much more reasonable) and that Ret Paladin DPS "can be OK", but that Ret Paladins are not acceptable to the most absolute-bleeding-edge, Min/Max guilds. I will agree with that to some degree, but that is absolutely not the conclusion you draw in your original post or your identical thread on the WoW forums.
I said I could possibly do up to 1200 DPS on Fathom Lord Karathress if I were in the melee group and alive the entire time. That does not mean I could pull 1200 DPS on other encounters. Like I have said many times in this thread, a melee's DPS will always depend upon the encounter because of factors like "high or low armor on the target", "melee friendly", etc. You cannot come here and say "oh, I did 900 DPS on Gruul" and say my DPS on Vashj is terrible. That's apples to oranges.
Look, the point is, if you compare Grant's WWS and mine, the numbers are similar and in some cases damn near identical. Two Paladins with BT gear, etc. pulling in the same numbers.
The point shouldn't be "what can Paladins do with every single maximizing melee synergy buff from other classes + flask + chugging pots." The point should be: "what can an average Paladin do based on their gear." Or what can a Paladin do with just shaman totems?
Like I said before, balancing Ret Paladin DPS under the working assumption that they have every possible melee synergy buff + flask + pots is ludicrous. Certainly that may be a high end balancing point, but by no means should it be the only balancing point or even the primary balancing point.
It's hard to sell bringing a DPS class to a raid when you have to tell the raid leader "if the ret pally doesn't get into the melee group he's gonna have worthless DPS."
If you take offense to me saying that it is hard to justify bringing along a Ret Paladin to a end-game raid, then tough. The utility is lackluster (imp. sanc aura) or broken (10 sec Crusader Strike), and the personal DPS is low even when in a melee group (compared to what other melee DPS are doing). Because the personal DPS is so low compared to other melee classes and the utility is lackluster or broken, Ret Paladins are, on a massive scale, not getting raid spots in high-end guilds.
Blizzard needs to pump the personal DPS by a good amount, fix crusader strike (they are, thankfully), and make imp. sanctity aura worth something so that Pallies get priority in the melee group because it's extremely beneficial to the min/max to have them there and not just because they are a veteran member or an officer or a GM.
If he wasn't in a melee dps group then that would explain a lot. However, I did see Unleashed Rage and Battle Shout at least in his Karathress WWS, which means enh shammy in his group. Those are usually the group buffs I get as well. Also LotP in the Leo WWS.
On Karathress I died, and I might have been moved to the melee group when another melee died and I got battle rez'd I believe. On Hydross I was in tank group, so I got NR totem instead of windfury. Tank group on Leotheras (feral druid + had to switch to FR aura). Tank group on Lurker.
The point shouldn't be "what can Paladins do with every single maximizing melee synergy buff from other classes + flask + chugging pots." The point should be: "what can an average Paladin do based on their gear." Or what can a Paladin do with just shaman totems?
Like I said before, balancing Ret Paladin DPS under the working assumption that they have every possible melee synergy buff + flask + pots is ludicrous. Certainly that may be a high end balancing point, but by no means should it be the only balancing point or even the primary balancing point.
Well with your emphasis on how you had the best weapon in the game (even resorting to full caps at one point), and your uber Arena ratings, I got the impression that you were claiming to be presenting more than just what an "average Paladin" can do. Sorry if I got the wrong impression there, but I think many others drew that conclusion too.
I don't think it's unfair at all to balance Ret DPS under the assumption of being flasked, using +str food, and chugging mana potions. All DPS classes use consumables to maximize their DPS, and these are all easily farmable for less than the cost of a typical raid's repair bills. Also I think it's pretty fair to assume BoK, JotC, and staying alive for the entire fight. These are things that the "average Paladin" will always have.
As for which melee group buffs it is fair to assume, that question is a bit tougher, but if you're going to try to provide evidence that Ret DPS isn't high enough to warrant a spot in a melee DPS group, then you at least have to show what that DPS would be, not what your DPS would be in a tank group. For example, if we stipulate that it may have been possible to reach 1200 DPS on Karathress with full buffs, then why would this not warrant a spot in the melee DPS group? After all, that would've placed you 3rd in DPS (and 1st among physical DPS classes).
Originally Posted by Moradh
It's hard to sell bringing a DPS class to a raid when you have to tell the raid leader "if the ret pally doesn't get into the melee group he's gonna have worthless DPS."
If you take offense to me saying that it is hard to justify bringing along a Ret Paladin to a end-game raid, then tough. The utility is lackluster (imp. sanc aura) or broken (10 sec Crusader Strike), and the personal DPS is low even when in a melee group (compared to what other melee DPS are doing). Because the personal DPS is so low compared to other melee classes and the utility is lackluster or broken, Ret Paladins are, on a massive scale, not getting raid spots in high-end guilds.
The only thing I "take offense to" (if you can really call it that) is you presenting this stuff as if it is remotely indicative of the best Ret Paladins can do, just because you have a good weapon/gear. When you say things like "I have come to the conclusion that Retribution sustained DPS is absolutely atrocious", that sure doesn't sound like you're only referring to how an average Paladin will do, while not even getting most of the possible buffs to increase their DPS.
I full agree with the first sentence in that quote though - probably the number one thing we need is a really sexy melee DPS group buff so that we are really wanted in the melee DPS group instead of only being allowed when there are no other alternatives or worse, stuck in a tank/caster group.
Well with your emphasis on how you had the best weapon in the game (even resorting to full caps at one point), and your uber Arena ratings, I got the impression that you were claiming to be presenting more than just what an "average Paladin" can do. Sorry if I got the wrong impression there, but I think many others drew that conclusion too.
I don't think it's unfair at all to balance Ret DPS under the assumption of being flasked, using +str food, and chugging mana potions. All DPS classes use consumables to maximize their DPS, and these are all easily farmable for less than the cost of a typical raid's repair bills. Also I think it's pretty fair to assume BoK, JotC, and staying alive for the entire fight. These are things that the "average Paladin" will always have.
As for which melee group buffs it is fair to assume, that question is a bit tougher, but if you're going to try to provide evidence that Ret DPS isn't high enough to warrant a spot in a melee DPS group, then you at least have to show what that DPS would be, not what your DPS would be in a tank group. For example, if we stipulate that it may have been possible to reach 1200 DPS on Karathress with full buffs, then why would this not warrant a spot in the melee DPS group? After all, that would've placed you 3rd in DPS (and 1st among physical DPS classes).
The only thing I "take offense to" (if you can really call it that) is you presenting this stuff as if it is remotely indicative of the best Ret Paladins can do, just because you have a good weapon/gear. When you say things like "I have come to the conclusion that Retribution sustained DPS is absolutely atrocious", that sure doesn't sound like you're only referring to how an average Paladin will do, while not even getting most of the possible buffs to increase their DPS.
I full agree with the first sentence in that quote though - probably the number one thing we need is a really sexy melee DPS group buff so that we are really wanted in the melee DPS group instead of only being allowed when there are no other alternatives or worse, stuck in a tank/caster group.
I'll say it bluntly: It doesn't take a lot to play this game well. Most of it is gear. Playing a Ret Paladin is not very complicated. Playing any class is not very complicated. It's about the gear for the most part.
So you think a Ret Paladin should have to chug mana pots to compete when enhancement and elemental shaman do not chug mana pots? When Warriors don't chug rage pots? When Feral Druids don't chug any pots? That's a bit silly.
When you aren't alive 100% of the time, that's obviously something to take into account. But saying I should have to chug mana pots to get a real measure of my DPS is absurd.
Casters chug pots...who cares what the other melee do (haste pots, by the way)? Isn't that what min/maxing is about?
Oh, and while it's not a viable comparison when you're out of the melee group, your parse is not as useful. You might as well try to evaluate your warrior/rogue damage based on being in the tank group or something. If you are arguing that ret should be viable in any group...well, ask your dps warriors about that.
On Karathress I died, and I might have been moved to the melee group when another melee died and I got battle rez'd I believe. On Hydross I was in tank group, so I got NR totem instead of windfury. Tank group on Leotheras (feral druid + had to switch to FR aura). Tank group on Lurker.
Yeah, that might be justifiable for your raid, if you're not being brought as dps. But if that's the case, you need to represent it as such, and not "this is maximized ret dps," which it isn't.
No one is questioning your skill now. Your dps is going to be drastically affected by your gear and raid buffs, just like it would with any other melee dps class. We now know (I thought you had a dps group based on the unleashed rage and battle shout in the WWS) that you didn't have a dps group, and that's really what's causing your dps to be so low. Misrepresenting that detail was what made people think you were unskilled.
A few weeks ago we were drastically short melee dps for Teron (read: no rogues online). We had plenty of healers and needed more dps badly so one of our paladins went ret and put on his gear. It was by no means amazing gear, but decent stuff. A mix of T5 plate dps loot with a couple T6 pieces. He got the melee dps group obviously as we had no rogues. Main point here is that he kept up with our enhancement shaman quite well as far as damage output and they ended the fight around the same level. So the damage output can be there on fights where threat is not a very limiting factor. The main issue as I see it is the benfits of a ret paladin in the raid are just not as justifiable. While the enchancement shaman makes up the core of a melee dps group due to the buffs available, a ret paladin can do most of his work outside of the melee group. Until a ret paladin gives out buffs that force him into a melee dps group the damage will be lacking. We can run in cricles all day, but a very well geared ret paladin, in the proper group, with the proper dps "cycles", chain using consumables, still is not up to par with even other hybrids.
I was happy he got in the raid as ret. I was happy to see him do relatively well. There was just not that little extra "oh hey that's really nice" synergy that keeps other hybrids their raid spot. The biggest boost was keeping up JoL indefinitely so our caster dps did not pot nearly as much. His biggest utility was replaced by a potion cooldown. That's needs a lot of work.
08/27/07, 8:39 AM
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