The Hybrid Heroic Challenge - Page 6

BeeLz · 03/05/07, 7:56 PM

Originally Posted by mavfin

From reading this thread through, it seems that once again, skill wins out. Skilled players with less than optimal specs *can* get the job done. A recurring theme, I think.

I don't really agree with that.
As a healing priest, I do need an optimal healing spec to get the job done. A shadow specced priest solohealing most heroics is just not possible. The only problem is 3 sec greater heals though. Mana isn't really a problem when you can use mana pots or have superior gear.

moowalk · 03/05/07, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by BeeLz

I don't really agree with that.
As a healing priest, I do need an optimal healing spec to get the job done. A shadow specced priest solohealing most heroics is just not possible. The only problem is 3 sec greater heals though. Mana isn't really a problem when you can use mana pots or have superior gear.

So you're really saying you only need 10 points in holy? ie, a far from optimal spec

That's largely a function that anything more than 10 points in holy only increases the size or efficiency of your heals. Both of which can be made up for with gear or consumables.

(Ignoring inspiration, which probably isn't fair)

Grelm · 03/06/07, 7:22 AM

There are some vague misconceptions floating around about hybrids, non-tanking spec'd tanks, and threat in general.

Much to their dismay.. Warriors actually have the worst time holding threat out of the tanking options availble. Several times ive seen one of our warriors put on a few pieces of dps gear so he can generate some extra rage by getting hit harder.

As an Enhancement Shaman (yeah loldps, I know) - The only tank I feel comfortable with playing full throttle is.. well.. a paladin.

It's been my experiences in the past.. that myths about actual hybrid functionality are begun in ignorance and often perpetuated into near fact. The first set of newb-ish hybrids that people ran across set the state for what would become the hardest MMO stigma to break. Cat-form DPS druids refusing to shift out.. even if it meant saving their own lives or a group memebers. Old-school DPSadin's with their bugged Seal of Crusader letting group mates die to watch the fast numbers. All it took was for a few of these (which were/are sadly the majority) to firmly implant the sort of ignorance the OP's guild-mate has show to be common belief.

Hybrids now, are fully functional, capable, and extreamly powerfull. To the point of nearly nullifying some of the old holy-trinity. A balance is going to be hard to find.. but I am sure it will come with time.

I've completed every heroic except Morass and out of all the group setups I enjoyed this synergy the most :

1x Prot Pally
1x Warlock
1x Shadow Priest
1x Elemental Shaman (Am Enh now.. it works just as well though, if not a little better)
1x Disc/Holy Priest

You will notice that is 3 hybrids filling both tanking/dps and backup-healing roles. The group is light on permanant CC.. but can rotate 3 fears and exceptional kiteing should things go wrong. It's usually not needed though because Paladin AoE threat is amazing.

BeeLz · 03/06/07, 6:33 PM

Originally Posted by moowalk

So you're really saying you only need 10 points in holy? ie, a far from optimal spec

That's largely a function that anything more than 10 points in holy only increases the size or efficiency of your heals. Both of which can be made up for with gear or consumables.

(Ignoring inspiration, which probably isn't fair)

well, you're right, but no shadow priest will ever spec 10 points in holy and no healing priest will spend only 10 points in holy. So basically a shadowpriest can't solo heal heroics.
Although deep discipline is far from an optimal healing and damage spec it should be possible to soloheal most heroics with it.

Janvier · 03/07/07, 8:58 AM

Originally Posted by Zephro

While raw HPS was something of a problem, reaction speeds were too. Our group setup was far from ideal (warrior tank, druid healer, hunter, rogue, warlock). Whenever anything broke our various gimpy forms of CC, I'd have to switch to heal them. That means 6 seconds minimum off the tank, and, as often as not, that would kill him.

If you find a druid mainhealing a heroic, be very very careful to never ever pull aggro and hope that your crowd control is very good. It can be done, but it's no fun at all.

As a resto druid (with a few points in balance) I had the same frustrating issue last night solo healing Shadow Labs (non-heroic).

The group consisted of:

68 Warrior
68 Mage
70 Hunter
70 Warlock
70 Druid (me)

This group is very experienced and has played together a lot, we know our strengths and weaknesses but we just couldn't kill the first boss in Shadow Labs and I fear healing was the reason.

My group claims that it was the 68 Warrior not being able to build enough threat on the 72 Elite, but more than anything as a Solo healing Druid, if you get a mob on you there is no "fade" type option and if as the other poster mentioned if HoTs are needed on any of the other group members pretty much kiss the MT good bye. Not to mention I notice my HoT draw serious aggro even with Subtlety talents.

I absolutely love my Druid and love to heal, but last night hurt big time. I really hope I was only pulling aggro off the MT due the 68 Warrior on a 72 Elite issue. I can't even imagine trying to heal through that on Heroic.

Perhaps Druids could use another spell simialr to Tranquility or even Tranquility on a smaller cooldown or something.

Lavode · 03/07/07, 9:42 AM

... You took a level 68 warrior up against a level 72 mob with a -5000 armor debuff and wonder why you wiped? Healing aggro is to be expected.. Come back with faith in felsteel in 2 levels and own him. :-)

• Maestroquark · 03/07/07, 10:25 AM

Really, get that tank the extra two levels before trying to judge anything. Shadow Labs is tuned for your characters to be level 70. The tank is the position that gets hurt the most by being underleveled, as you're losing damage, threat, and mitigation all at once.

• Bad Luck · 03/07/07, 10:31 AM

Also bringing along a Shaman for when shit hits the fan is nice. I healed a Shadow Labs as a Feral spec with a full 70 group just fine because I had an Enhancement Shaman able to help out when need be. And their rez is good too.

And yeah, Resto Druids do need a bit by the way of survivability. At the moment you can either pop Barkskin once every 2 minutes, or spend 1000 mana (if you don't have Natural Shapeshifter) and turn into a Bear to brace it out. Or get lucky and the mob is Cyclone-able. It's even more glaring in PvP. Nature's Grasp and Roots helps but then there is our silly outdoor limitation.

Apate · 03/07/07, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Lavode

... You took a level 68 warrior up against a level 72 mob with a -5000 armor debuff and wonder why you wiped? Healing aggro is to be expected.. Come back with faith in felsteel in 2 levels and own him. :-)

There may be a few things that could help. The group has access to a felhunter, which can outrange and eat the fears (or so I'm told). It's definitely a tough fight with a lower level/undergeared tank, but not impossible with a druid solo healing. Blackheart, on the other hand...I just came back when I was 70.

fatherwind · 03/08/07, 5:52 PM

The whole hybrid mythos has never stopped surprising me. Folks ask, "what's your spec" and "we need class X" they generally don't ask, "do you have gear for" which, IMHO, covers most of your ability to do any job.

Leveling as a feral druid from 60-70 I main healed just about every instance (generally wipeless) on my way to 70 just fine -- when I wasn't tanking. Standard T2 gear and tbc quest-ables appropriate for the level. We never really got to Naxx.

After hitting 70, I've switched to resto (mistakenly thinking healers were in short supply -- warriors are actually harder to find) and main tanked all lvl 70 instances (non heroic) (generally wipeless) w/o difficulty (gear... typical feral tanking gear avail at T2 levels and blues/greens from leveling to 70).

Since hitting revered my preferred groups for heroics which I've not run many of but generally consist of a Druid Feral MT, a Druid Resto MH (me), and a std T2/tbc blue hunter, and 2 other classes (rogue hunter, mage,lock, sp, etc). The class isn't *too* important. Sheep = fear = seduce = mind control = sap = off tank = cc.

Runs go badly because of class play and occasionally gear -- not class/spec. I've floated through instances w/ 2 druids 3 hunters and been murdered when it's 2 druids 3 mages. As mages are generally considered superior cc it should have been smoother. (Entrapment owns in an OP type of way for 5 mans btw).

So the short answer is... hybrid classes can be fine in heroics. Don't break your cc. Make sure you have the gear/spec to mitigate/hps/dps/agro gen like you need. Things will be fine.

panny · 03/08/07, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by fatherwind

The class isn't *too* important. Sheep = fear = seduce = mind control = sap = off tank = cc.

You forgot kite in that list.

• malthrin · 03/09/07, 2:47 AM

Originally Posted by Eliirion

The biggest thing holding back a hybrid/non-prot warrior in a heroic 5 man is threat. You can do most of them fine since gear is the major factor in minimizing your damage taken. You just have to be ready to taunt when you can't keep up with your dpsers (healer/warlock/mage get the same polarity shift on the first boss of mechanar and pop trinkets/heroism). Some bosses have an enrage or are dps races where you need to burn them down before you get overwhelmed, and that's where hybrid tanks have problems.

Yep, that's what I'm seeing as well. My usual Heroic group consists of myself, an MS/Deathwish Warrior (tanking), an affliction 'lock, an AP/Fire mage, and whoever else we can grab. On tonight's run the 5th was an Elemental Shaman, and even with Salv our casters were pulling aggro on long fights (usually not long after the Heroism). The tank is fine to heal; as others have said, its just matching numbers to acheive the same mitigation as Prot, but threat is a constant issue, and tonight with the +dmg totem and Heroisms more than ever.

On another note, Righteous Defense is a phenomenal kiting tool.

Cel · 03/09/07, 3:16 AM

I've been loosely following this thread and figured I'd share:

We cleared Heroic Mechanar today with:

Holy Priest
Ret Paladin
Enh Shaman
Rogue
Prot Warrior

With only sap for CC, I thought we might have a little trouble, but with the way the shaman and paladin's buffs came together, we blew things up so fast it didn't matter. It was to the point that we would kill 3 mobs and still be waiting on the sap to break. I've had harder times with a mage and warlock in place of the shaman and paladin. We had so much dps that the final boss only got 1 wave of adds off. For the second boss, the chick blood elf, it helped greatly that we had 2 back up healers... the paladin ended up main healing, and the priest and shaman (who got the adds: 2 on the priest, 1 on the shaman) could focus on keeping themselves alive.

All in all, the utility features of hybrids tend to make up for the lack of CC, which in this case was the crazy melee dps buffs and backup healing.

edit: /wave @ ghosthands from that one AV game >_>

Mearis · 03/09/07, 4:53 AM

Originally Posted by Tharas

I have been wondering about this too, I'm just getting on board for some heroic stuff now.

I am 0/48/13 right now but I have more armor (and/or health) than a lot of prot-spec tanks wandering around (at least the ones I have seen on my server), and I'm one upgrade from def-capping at 490. Once you have 12k+ buffed health and/or 11k+ armor, wouldn't the extra aggro/dps just help things out? I don't mind respec'ing pretty soon, but I have a few dozen quests to pound out for gold, and it's just that much easier with fury.

(I also have been doing a lot of Shadow Labs with a balance moonkin druid, crikey he puts out some dps, just embarassing every mage, hunter or lock I have been in there with, sometimes by 500k+ across one run -- I am hoping he can keep that spec for some heroics because the high-dps/flex-healing combo is really nice)

If your gear is good, you can probably skim on protection a bit, but speaking as a threat capped DPS class or as a healer, protection makes a huge difference.

The difference in threat that our full tank produces compared to our arms warrior is night and day. Try to take at least 3/3 defiance if you can.

Kink · 03/09/07, 5:07 AM

Originally Posted by Symbul

I've only done Blood Furnace but my guild has had success running Heroics with complete hybrid setups.

.......It doesn't help that the mobs routinely do the "store attacks" thing while they're unengaged that the Drakes in BWL tended to do a lot (though it's not unique to them by any means) and when they reach a target they swing 3+ times at once. It ......

you know, I have seen this bug so many times on so many mobs as I have played this game, and yet I have never seen another person mention it so I figured I was just imagining stuff.

Used to really annoy me to be gouge kiting a mob on my rogue to have it catch up and hit me 3 or 4 times in an instant.