Since this thread is about itemization.... What's up with Vambrace of Courage and the Class: Warrior on it... I havent found other bracers for tanks that compare and/or have sockets and/or is epic...
I think its time for Blizzard to admit that they failed with the paladin class so far in the expansion. The paladin at this moment, is a broken class, there is no way around it.
Every class at this moment of time, have at least 2 viable trees that they can go deep into and be succesfull in raids (Maybe bar rogues, but they suffered the same fate), paladins have 1 tree, a very good tree indeed, but thats about it.
Feral druids are usefull, shadow priests are usefull, enchantment shamans are usefull, fury warriors are usefull. Full retribution paladins are not usefull in any shape or form in raids (The only place where they will actually make a significant diffrence is Doom Lord Kazzak, and even there it doesn't really matter), same goes for protection paladins.
When you look at other hybrid classes you see 2 trees that are PvE trees and very viable in that way (Protection/Fury, Resto/Feral), and 1 tree which is more PvP based (Arms, Balance). Paladins have 1 PvE tree (Holy) and 1 PvP tree (Retribution), the 3rd tree is basiclly for running as a tank in 5 men or OT Karazhan. Its not viable for anything beyond that, even if the items were there you still lagging far behind the other classes.
Right now at this time paladins are only hybrids in PvP, they offer nothing else bedises healing to raids. For me its a broken class, its a shame because I actually had some hopes regarding the paladin class in the expansion, but once I moved on from 5-men and 1st half of Kharazan, I found myself a liability as a protection paladin, and it seems I'm back to being a healbot (Not that I hate healing, but its a shame to being forced into a specific role, not by my fellow players, but by common sense).
If things won't be adressed soon regarding this, it will be actually too late.
The devs actually mentioned today that Paladin tanking wasn't exactly where they wanted it to be and there would be attention paid towards that end of things. Overall, they do expect Paladins, Druids and Warriors to fill tanking roles in end-game, whatever they may be. While there may be a flavor distinction between tanks, we don't want to (or want the players to) find some rigid hierarchy by which classes are measured in their tanking potential to the third decimal point.
I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of tweaks involved for everyone in 2.1. I'm looking forward to seeing on the PTR, hopefully sometime this month.
Right now at this time paladins are only hybrids in PvP,
I don't think paladins are really much of a hybrid at all in any aspect of the game. Paladins heal in PvE and heal in PvP. That's about it. The transition has been from being buff and cleanse bots in MC to secondary healers to main healers.
And that's really what we are, main healers, and nothing else. We have the smallest amount of healing skills, but the most efficient and generally "best" single target healing ability in the game, combined with the best survivabilty. With this spec, we aren't able to fulfill any other function in the game (we have the lowest DPS by far, we can't tank without holy shield, etc).
I like healing so this doesn't bother me personally that much, but it is disappointing they still haven't figured out how to make us a true melee support class. They probably fear the time investment of an ability redesign, but really it wouldn't take all that much-
Give the holy tree an improved judgement of light talent that requires the paladin to be meleeing to give the group a more powerful HoT type effect, or other passive buff, and now you have holy paladins in melee buffing, healing, and whatnot.
Fix the protection tree so we are a viable endgame tank possibility, and we are good here.
Fix the Retribution talents to give us more group buffing potential from melee attacks that actually require us to be wearing melee gear (proc off crits like shaman, for example). The biggest misconception about Ret is that paladins want to be DPS, but really, again, most just want to be a melee class, and you can be a melee class and contribute to the group/raid without amazing DPS.
Wraithlin,
You bring up some good points, and I must acknowledge the fact that I was speaking with a few assumptions that you may hold differently. First of all i do not think of warriors as hybrids, I am one of the majority who categorizes the classes based on historical roles and utility. When I say Hybrid I am referring to the Druid, Shaman and Paladin. Whether or not you think this is a good classification, it is how I hold it, and how the majority does.
You are also correct in saying I should not hold myself to "ideal" situations. Our 40 man raiding guild was only able to put together one raid. The reason stated was a lack of tanks. Our guild also faced a shortage of keyed players but I figured other guilds would have an abundance of players to choose from. I would assume that having capable Druid and Paladin tanks would solve the problem of making raids with whoever is available.
You are also correct about the Righteous Fury difference, but I feel that its not as huge as it would seem just from casual inspection. The 4% difference is for physical attacks only if the Paladin has invested in Spellwarding. Physical damage is whatever gets past dodge/parry, and then is also additionally modified by block. So its easy to see that the 4% gets smaller as damage avoidance values get higher, and since most people agree that Paladins have a higher overall block rate compared to warriors, this difference gets even smaller. Note i'm not saying the difference isn't there, i'm just saying its not a flat 4% either. The HP difference is tangible and we both agree about it.
I also don't assume mitigation is governed by only AC. Druids may reach high armor and HP values quickly, but I have yet to see a druid who continues to have amazing defensive values when compared to a warrior who is steadily upgrading his gear through five man heroics and raids. Block, parry, crit and crushing blow avoidance are things a druid can't surpass. Warriors are easier to gear up because of the abundance of warrior tanking items. From what I know, there is very little to choose from when raiding for Bear tank gear.
But the heart of your reply is what i agree with, but I disagree on your conclusion. The correct question for us is: do we need to have a zone on farm status to justify a Paladin or Druid as the Main tank? While you believe this is the case, I do not. If you want to site current T4 and T5 gear, its moot because we have been informed they are all getting reviewed. All I can do is look at current pre-raid gear. From looking at that, I don't see a huge rift in Paladin and Warrior tanking stats besides HP values.
If that is enough for people to proclaim the death of Paladin tanking, then so be it. I won't argue something that is just my opinion vs theirs.
Looking at the paladin talent trees I see they suffer from the same problem druids had before TBC, namely that to spec non-healing you have to invest heavily in a tree to be good at it and by doing so hinder your healing potential drastically.
Worse is when you have to spend points in either three trees or two trees with no healing talents in them as, lets be honest here, at times you will be required to heal.
I think just swapping the position of Precision and Deflection between the protection and retribution trees would help a lot, it would give you the option of 20/41/0 tank build without losing 5% avoidance or illumination.
If you spec as a tank and don't take 5% parry you just help give naysayers a reason why you are not good enough to tank and if you don't have illumination you lose the long term staying power while healing which is generally needed in any fight of significant difficulty to your guilds progression.
There are more talents which look bad as well, like Weapon Expertise in the tanking tree, even one handed specalisation looks dodgy to me given that most of your threat comes from Holy damage. I am sure there are more which look bad under scrutiny too, just playing with the calculator the protection tree seems very bloated.
Originally Posted by Deth
*snip*
Max
You really should have read the forum rules properly when you signed up. To save you getting ridiculed, avoid signing your posts
Looking at the paladin talent trees I see they suffer from the same problem druids had before TBC, namely that to spec non-healing you have to invest heavily in a tree to be good at it and by doing so hinder your healing potential drastically.
One thing that helps druids in this regard is that their trees are cross-fertilized to a significant degree -- e.g., Nurturing Instinct and Heart of the Wild are talents that both directly impact healing ability, even though they're located fairly deep in Feral. Paladins have some of this as well -- Improved Sanctity Aura brings healing utility to Ret, Blessed Life and Divine Purpose bring mitigation to the non-Prot trees, and there are damage talents in Holy and Prot.
But what's conspicuously missing is some kind of healing utility talent in Prot aside from the relatively weak Improved Concentration Aura. I wouldn't mind seeing a talent that, for example, gives you a chance when taking damage to make your next heal an instant-cast spell (limited to one proc every X seconds if necessary for balance).
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
One thing that helps druids in this regard is that their trees are cross-fertilized to a significant degree -- e.g., Nurturing Instinct and Heart of the Wild are talents that both directly impact healing ability, even though they're located fairly deep in Feral. Paladins have some of this as well -- Improved Sanctity Aura brings healing utility to Ret, Blessed Life and Divine Purpose bring mitigation to the non-Prot trees, and there are damage talents in Holy and Prot.
But what's conspicuously missing is some kind of healing utility talent in Prot aside from the relatively weak Improved Concentration Aura. I wouldn't mind seeing a talent that, for example, gives you a chance when taking damage to make your next heal an instant-cast spell (limited to one proc every X seconds if necessary for balance).
To balance that they'd also have to make it next heal cast on someone else. Instant-self-healing paladin tanks would be slightly overpowered, it'd be like having a health pot every time it proc'd.
To balance that they'd also have to make it next heal cast on someone else. Instant-self-healing paladin tanks would be slightly overpowered, it'd be like having a health pot every time it proc'd.
True.
They could also limit it to FoL; that'd actually be a reasonable compromise with our slightly-poorer-than-a-warrior mitigation.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
True, mitigation as well as the hp gap, if you could heal yourself after a spike it'd be handy. Would also limit our threat generation a little having to use a global to heal ourselves, but shouldn't be too major.
True, mitigation as well as the hp gap, if you could heal yourself after a spike it'd be handy. Would also limit our threat generation a little having to use a global to heal ourselves, but shouldn't be too major.
When Consecrate, Judgement, and Holy Shield are on CD, what else are you going to do?
On the talent suggestions:
There are more talents which look bad as well, like Weapon Expertise in the tanking tree, even one handed specalisation looks dodgy to me given that most of your threat comes from Holy damage. I am sure there are more which look bad under scrutiny too, just playing with the calculator the protection tree seems very bloated.
Ret is not a raid DPS tree, so the +weapon skill doesn't matter that much - the Prot paladin will be attacking higher level mobs so it did sorta make sense. (Though its effect seems low for the talent point cost with our current understanding of weapon skill)
1h Weapon Spec affects SoR damage, so it does boost some of our holy damage (and hence threat) generation. It also affects SoC/JoC damage, and probably SoB/JoB damage.
I have to say, I'm extremely pleased to see that the devs aren't happy with the current state of things. If there is a genuine desire for Paladins to fulfill endgame tanking roles, then the very worst that could happen would be a slight buff, and a few tough gimmick encounters / trash here and there. And you know, I'd be satisfied with that. I have no illusions of throwing out my healing set anytime soon, but it's good to have some tangible hope that I'll be able to raid 25-man content without thinking to myself that someone specced Holy would be doing my overall job better.
Hallo all. I've lurked these boards for a long time, and now finally chose to make the leap into posting. Yesterday I made a post on the official EU WoW-forums regarding protection paladin itemization
s previously promised I passed this on to the developers. I took the liberty of summarising the thread; basically saying that what you are after is gear with +Stamina, +Defense and +Spell damage, and that you are not very keen on +Intelligence and MP5 (Youngblood emphasised the need for more HP and damage mitigation instead).
The devs have read this and thought it sounded fair enough. Paladin tanking gear is going to be more geared towards tanking/hp so this concern should be addressed in the next content patch.
So, again, thank you for compiling this and helping me passing your concerns on to the devs.
I swear, you Europeans have no idea how lucky you are to have CMs that actually read your forums and pass things along to the devs.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Well, I just hope it doesn't come back to haunt us all.
As I wrote in a comment to Ommras latest post, the core of my original post was that paladin tanks need more HP and mitigation, and that our mana pool/regen is fine. But what if the developers now change the paladin taking items so that we get more HP and better mitigation? What does that mean? Well, for one it means we will need less healing. Less healing means less mana back. It would be supremely ironic if the changes mean we reverse the situation, so that we survive, but cannot hold aggro due to lack of mana.
I can see the angry posts already. We need more INT on our gear! We need more MP5! Balance is such a fickle thing, and I hope the developers keep this issue in mind when the itemisation is reworked.
I'm not sure there is a fixed "item budget" as such, but there seems to be. The problem is then if the "item budget" simply does not allow for the item creators to add all stats which are needed for paladin tanking loot to work as intended.
As I wrote in a comment to Ommras latest post, the core of my original post was that paladin tanks need more HP and mitigation, and that our mana pool/regen is fine. But what if the developers now change the paladin taking items so that we get more HP and better mitigation? What does that mean? Well, for one it means we will need less healing. Less healing means less mana back. It would be supremely ironic if the changes mean we reverse the situation, so that we survive, but cannot hold aggro due to lack of mana.
I won't say that's impossible, but I think there's a lot of room for our mitigation to be improved without gimping our threat generation. It's really hard to run out of mana tanking something that hits significantly hard (e.g., Malchezaar), and I'd be surprised if they overshot the mark so far as to make that a serious concern. And we always have the option to swap out mitigation gear for something with more spelldamage (as you have to for 5-mans).
I'm not sure there is a fixed "item budget" as such, but there seems to be. The problem is then if the "item budget" simply does not allow for the item creators to add all stats which are needed for paladin tanking loot to work as intended.
I don't think it's that hard. Take warrior gear and convert the strength into spelldamage and you're 90% there.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
I don't think it's that hard. Take warrior gear and convert the strength into spelldamage and you're 90% there.
Get the warrior armor set:
Take the str, turn it into an equivalent ilevel cost in +damage, and +block rating.
Take agi, and turn it into an equivalent ilevel cost in armor and block rating.
Change the slots to blue so we can add + stamina gems.
Those are my rough guide to making a decent set of paladin tanking armor.
Get the warrior armor set:
Take the str, turn it into an equivalent ilevel cost in +damage, and +block rating.
Take agi, and turn it into an equivalent ilevel cost in armor and block rating.
Change the slots to blue so we can add + stamina gems.
Those are my rough guide to making a decent set of paladin tanking armor.
Actually I'd rather keep the agility. Avoidance is as important to tanking for a Paladin as it is to a Warrior. Convert the agility to dodge rating perhaps, but getting rid of it for block rating/armor? No.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
Actually I'd rather keep the agility. Avoidance is as important to tanking for a Paladin as it is to a Warrior. Convert the agility to dodge rating perhaps, but getting rid of it for block rating/armor? No.
The doge loss is nothing compared to our gear having enough block rating that we can reliably push crushing blows off the attack table. Not only that but on a dodge/parry you lose a big chunk of threat compared to a block which gives you threat from; retribution aura, BoSanc, Holyshield.
Converting it to block gives us alot more bang for our buck than conversion to dodge.
The doge loss is nothing compared to our gear having enough block rating that we can reliably push crushing blows off the attack table. Not only that but on a dodge/parry you lose a big chunk of threat compared to a block which gives you threat from; retribution aura, BoSanc, Holyshield.
Converting it to block gives us alot more bang for our buck than conversion to dodge.
It only gives more bang for your buck when it comes to getting up to pushing Crushing Blows off; after that it's in my opinion and experience less good.
Blocking gives you more aggro. Great. Aggro isn't as much an issue as survival and the damage a Paladin takes relative to other tanks, and I'm pretty sure that in overall damage reduction, dodge rating would usually provide a larger benefit than block rating does.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
The doge loss is nothing compared to our gear having enough block rating that we can reliably push crushing blows off the attack table. Not only that but on a dodge/parry you lose a big chunk of threat compared to a block which gives you threat from; retribution aura, BoSanc, Holyshield.
Converting it to block gives us alot more bang for our buck than conversion to dodge.
Nit pick: I don't believe Ret Aura ticks when you block. It's hard to tell now, since they seem to have removed reflective damage from the combat log/SCT(or maybe I just accidently turned it off somewhere).
Well, I just hope it doesn't come back to haunt us all.
...
It would be supremely ironic if the changes mean we reverse the situation, so that we survive, but cannot hold aggro due to lack of mana.
Even if that happens, you can still put on a few mana regen trinkets / fingers. Or put a shadow priest in your group (with the healers and optional lock). Besides, there are still more consumables that affect mana than those that affect rage. Oh the wonderful Demonic Runes...
Nit pick: I don't believe Ret Aura ticks when you block. It's hard to tell now, since they seem to have removed reflective damage from the combat log/SCT(or maybe I just accidently turned it off somewhere).
03/09/07, 11:26 AM
especially when they have no strength on them!
