I'm pretty sure in most cases, they don't tune for consumables. But if you want to beat encounters easily and make up for a few mistakes that will probably happen, you use consumables to put you on a higher level than the encounter and "cheese" it. I don't mean it makes the kill any less important, just that it probably makes them easier than what they were intended, and at the same time, Blizzard was well aware that people would be able to use some consumables to counter some aspects of the fight, or actually designed fights with it in mind(ragnaros with fire prot pots, loatheb with shadow prot pots before the shadow priests changes).
But while it does look as an "option", it quickly becomes an habit and a necessity when you want to progress fast thru content, especially when strats aren't well known for fights or because you can't afford raid stacking. Which is I guess what they're changing, not sure I've seen it, but there's an official post about it: "We do have some important changes coming on how flasks and elixirs function, and we'll be announcing those as we get close to the release of that patch." -Drysc
Might have missed it in the thread tho, so sorry if it's a repost. Only saw the german client thing, which might just have been a localization problem anyway.
Return the stigma of heavy consumable use. That's a social issue, not a developer's problem. "You flasked your entire raid? Wow...learn to play..." This was once a stigma. What happened to it? Did people just get used to the idea, or was desensitization forced on them by content that did, in fact, require consumables?
Like Gurg said in the 2.0.1 post, it basically became forced on people through the way content was designed. My first memory of us using flasks a lot was on Broodlord to give the tanks an hp buffer vs MS+Blastwave. Also on Chromaggus since his damage was pretty high especially if you got the acid breath, and Nef since warrior call+shadow flame did a lot of damage. But BWL was primarily flasking tanks, so we were used to this by the time twin emps, etc came around. I think the first time I saw a full flasked raid was when Nihilum killed C'thun, although that level of consumable useage was unnecessary.
By Naxx we just flasked tanks for everything, our MT would chain titans every time they ran out. Once we got to Sapph it just became something you did, at least at the beginning. Flasked every tank, a lot of the healers with wisdom, and virtually every magic user with supreme power. The same for world buffs. We used to have one day of Loatheb/Sapph/KT, and world buffed and flasked everyone out.
I don't see how they can *not* be tuning for consumables. Honestly I thought MMO developers had universally learned this lesson after some public soul-searching in the later years of EQ (2001-2003 era). I quite clearly remember developers (perhaps for EQ2) stating they learned a lesson from all of the buffs and debuffs available in EQ (haste, slow, mana regen especially). They seem like a good idea on the drawing board, but very quickly they become required and don't make anybody happy in the long run.
The main objection to this that I see is that the consumables will remain and content will be trivialized for the top 15% of players. Let the top folks steamroll content, get bored and quit. Doesn't sound to great, but I don't really think that has to happen. If the content is overly trivial all flasked up, but is still difficult unbuffed, then one can't really complain too much about it. The "world-first" type guilds would very likely be the only ones willing to dedicate that much gold/farm-time just for the sake of trivializing the content. And the "world-first" type guilds are an incredibly small minority.
Edit: beaten like 3 times
As Gurgthock explained in his dissertation on consumables here, the gains from consumables are so high that if encounters were tuned by developers turning a blind eye to consumables, they would be so incredibly easy with consumables that you'd still need to farm them anyways, you'd just beat the encounter on your first or second try with very little effort.
It wouldn't be only the 'world-first' guilds who'd farm consumables If farming a flask by myself for everyone in my raid would let my guild waltz in easily handle any encounter that has precariously tuned HP/dps/healing requirements, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
And of course people would complain if this was the case. It wouldn't be raiders who were complaining, though. It'd be PVP'ers, or tradeskillers, etc., who have a more difficult time attaining their gear. Raiding must always be a challenge if the rewards are good (maybe they aren't so great now, but I believe that will improve).
Like Gurg said in the 2.0.1 post, it basically became forced on people through the way content was designed. My first memory of us using flasks a lot was on Broodlord to give the tanks an hp buffer vs MS+Blastwave. Also on Chromaggus since his damage was pretty high especially if you got the acid breath, and Nef since warrior call+shadow flame did a lot of damage. But BWL was primarily flasking tanks, so we were used to this by the time twin emps, etc came around. I think the first time I saw a full flasked raid was when Nihilum killed C'thun, although that level of consumable useage was unnecessary.
By Naxx we just flasked tanks for everything, our MT would chain titans every time they ran out. Once we got to Sapph it just became something you did, at least at the beginning. Flasked every tank, a lot of the healers with wisdom, and virtually every magic user with supreme power. The same for world buffs. We used to have one day of Loatheb/Sapph/KT, and world buffed and flasked everyone out.
So there was content that was very difficult, and flasking tanks became an "accepted exception." But it continued as people got used to the idea and content started to expect it.
So simply a combination of tuning and social change... I guess it's too "perfect world," but I'd love if consumables remained just as powerful, but had that social stigma attached to them. Basically...reverse the trend, consumables become something for the less serious, less geared players (and they would use them less, because the components would actually be a realistic barrier for them), while raiders limit their own consumable use.
I just hate the idea that consumables might just be nerfed into the ground for everyone because of design mistakes and social changes in the raid game. This is random, but I envision a fix similar to the Underbog Heroic chest-farming by rogues. Instead of fixing the fact that you could infinitely reset Heroic instances, they simply plopped mobs on top of the chest. They didn't fix the exploitative part of the problem, they just removed the whole situation.
Like Gurg said in the 2.0.1 post, it basically became forced on people through the way content was designed. My first memory of us using flasks a lot was on Broodlord to give the tanks an hp buffer vs MS+Blastwave. Also on Chromaggus since his damage was pretty high especially if you got the acid breath, and Nef since warrior call+shadow flame did a lot of damage. But BWL was primarily flasking tanks, so we were used to this by the time twin emps, etc came around. I think the first time I saw a full flasked raid was when Nihilum killed C'thun, although that level of consumable useage was unnecessary.
By Naxx we just flasked tanks for everything, our MT would chain titans every time they ran out. Once we got to Sapph it just became something you did, at least at the beginning. Flasked every tank, a lot of the healers with wisdom, and virtually every magic user with supreme power. The same for world buffs. We used to have one day of Loatheb/Sapph/KT, and world buffed and flasked everyone out.
Yep. We actually never used Titans on Broodlord. The first time we ever used them was on the MT for Firemaw in September 2005 or so, since we realized that the only way we ever wiped to Firemaw was bad luck (Shadow Flame + crush/crush Thrash proc, or some ungodly buffet stack), and that a flask cost less than a wipe. We'd flask for Firemaw and it'd carry through to Nef, which just made for a smoother ride overall with our gear at the time.
I still believe that Twin Emperors was the first fight in the game to actually require this from a balance perspective. A tank in 8/8 Wrath with a Chromaggus shield simply could not tank Vek'nilash without using Titans/Zanza and some armor pots and still live. Unbalancing+hit when Demo couldn't be reapplied due to nearby bugs would two-shot you, period. I remember being somewhat irritated at the time because AQ40 had basically no tanking upgrades (some sidegrades) for a BWL-geared tank (until C'Thun, but we didn't know that at the time), so I was left wondering how we'd ever be able to move past having to buff our tanks every week for Emps.
And as I said in the other thread, there is absolutely no question that by the time Naxx rolled around, Naxx was balanced for consumables. Period. When we tested Patchwerk on the PTR, we were reminded to bring tank consumables; when we tested Loatheb (fun fact -- Loatheb's original incarnation used to start Impending Doom after 20 seconds...) we were asked if we had GSPPs on us.
I think you're one of the few players who wants consumeables to remain at their current power level Dazwin.
As an alchemist, I wish they weren't in the game at all now. It seems ridiculous that slaying Gruul the Drgaonkiller, seizing the Blade of the Nathrezim from Prince Malchezar and then putting a final end to Magtheridon grants a smaller increase in power than simply quaffing a potion I farmed for or bought off the Auction House. Their mere presence distorts the entire raid game - no item can be seen as a huge upgrade in comparison, and indeed most peopel measure upgrades not in how much power they give, but in how many consumeables they would allow you to drop.
Isn;t that a sad state of affairs, when looking at a new boss item, and the main thought in your head is : I won;t have to drink a mageblood potion next time we kill him! Of course, because all consumeables stack with every item you have for no cost, you will have to drink that potion, because that's what they have to balance around, and thus the cirlse goes on and on. Instead of reducing consumeables to minor buffs that wouldn't make a big difference in TBC, as many wanted, they took the opposite route of actually boosting their power even more so.
Just disable all consumeables in raid instances, and fix mana / health potions so that healers and dps casters don't need to burn 3 of them on each boss attempt. The vast majority of gamers would still use them for the buffs they provide in 5 player content and outdoor content, and it would bring alchemy far more inline with the other professions.
(Heck, I levelled alchemy up at game launch because it was fun, and the potions I made whilst levelling up made levelling easier and added more fun to it. I never anticpated my profession would become this hugely required and needed tool for raiding).
I think you're one of the few players who wants consumeables to remain at their current power level Dazwin.
Yes, I know...heh, I feel a little out of place
(Heck, I levelled alchemy up at game launch because it was fun, and the potions I made whilst levelling up made levelling easier and added more fun to it. I never anticpated my profession would become this hugely required and needed tool for raiding).
That's exactly where I'm at. I loved having troll's blood, minor agility, and minor strength potions on while leveling. It made Alchemy very useful. It's also enjoyable to buff up and take down some quest mob that you know you'd otherwise not have a chance on.
I'm not very good at phrasing this, but what I'm trying to say (like in the last paragraph of my previous post) is that I'd rather not see consumables brought down game-wide. There is obviously a problem in the raid game, and not a problem at all in the non-raid game (because, in the non-raid game, competition and need are so much lower that material costs are much more impactful...I'm not going to blow 3 Major Agility elixirs on a lousy Arcatraz PuG). I'd be absolutely delighted if any changes had little impact on the non-raid game.
When my guild first killed Nef I remember, as we were jumping around in Orgrimmar afterwards, some people responding to our members yells of "Nef Down!" with "LOL look their mages and locks have Supreme Power, you guys suck!" There was definitely a stigma at that time to using flasks in raids, and I remember a profound sense of relief among our officers the next week when we only used a Titan's on the Main Tank. There has been a 180 degree change in that paradigm from then till today.
I have no problem with requiring Main Tank consumables. I think that's almost something that can bring a guild together, everyone contributing to turn your main tank for whatever encounter into a buffed out monster, and gasping at his HP totals or Dodge rate or whatever. Beyond that, all I know is raiding in WoW seemed alot more fun when encounters were tuned for no flasks.
I'll agree perhaps 7 seems abit off, but for us I dont think anything above 10 would be realistic.
Depends on the fight something like Hydross its more around 8 and something like Magtheridon its more in the realm of 10-12 depending on how long we last.
I see a lot of very complex solutions to the consumable issue... Instead of commenting on all those. I'll dump my own, hopefully simpler suggestion on the block.
1. Allow only 1 buff potion (Flask or elixir)
2. Allow only 1 food/drink buff
3. Allow only 1 combat potion per combat, regardless of length!
4. Group every other consumable, and allow 1 per combat.
Rebalance encounters from there.
Should solve all the problems and reduce the cash-drain/farm time to a managable level once more.
I think people are missing a major point here. Most of these 1 buff per type solutions still allow 40 people to flask, and flasks are absurdly powerful. This is only going to make the consumable problem remain, or if anything, increase it. As you have less slots to fill, you can be sure they're going to be always filled - its like with 25 mans, you benefit more from stacking as your number of variables goes down.
I see a lot of very complex solutions to the consumable issue... Instead of commenting on all those. I'll dump my own, hopefully simpler suggestion on the block.
1. Allow only 1 buff potion (Flask or elixir)
2. Allow only 1 food/drink buff
3. Allow only 1 combat potion per combat, regardless of length!
4. Group every other consumable, and allow 1 per combat.
Rebalance encounters from there.
Should solve all the problems and reduce the cash-drain/farm time to a managable level once more.
1: Mighty Restoration (-Healing Power -Mageblood)
2: Golden Fish Sticks
3: (examples?)
4: (Mana Potion?) (-1/2 Mana Potions)
1: seems like the most plausable solution to 'fix' alchemy if it was including potion buffs.
Linking the chain-chugging potions with a significant, stacking negative effect should keep them in-line vs how they are now.
Providing gear upgrades more noticably in future, people will perhaps only need a potion or two on perhaps 1-2 bosses per zone and thus Flasks are not 'needed' so people will more likely skip them in favor of a stack of a few normal pots.
However in comparison to Supreme power, Mighty Restoration and Relentless Assult seem about 25% too 'strong'.
3. Allow only 1 combat potion per combat, regardless of length!
I don't really see this being an effective way to limit usage, considering that for some classes, leaving combat is possible (mage, rogue) or even trivial (hunter). As others have suggested, I think a more balanced (though also more complicated) solution would be to impose diminishing returns and/or negative effects along with repeated use of consumables.
I can report that consumable collection and ah availability on small pop servers is completely out of whack.
For example as a rogue with herb I can go get as much terocone as I want. I think I picked 50 in one hour yesterday using a normal epic mount dodging mobs(mainly because theres next to 0 competition for spawns besides things like mana thistle). At the same time I will put 4 stacks of dreaming glory up at 10g and 1 will sell over the 8 hour period just because the raiding population and people who can make the new flask is so small no one wants the stuff.
Netherbloom and ancient lichen can sell at 20-30g each stack just because there seems to be no supply whatsoever not that the demand is high I've had them expire on me or sell out its a complete crap shoot. Terocone is never on the ah at all it seems and I'm not selling as its my main herb. Fel lotus being the rarest is the most random. The AH can go from having a couple up at 4-5g the seller dosent know what to price them at because none were on before to people who know what they are for trying to make a killing putting them up at 35 for the hell of it.
I completely agree with pulling consumables back but they also need to look at the herb domination of consumables. You cant even buy the herbs required on some servers because the populations don't support working AH's. Every other raider seems to be herb or has a herb alt to curb the cost.
All this talk about changing consumables. What would be so bad about balancing the majority of raid encounters without consumables. It was done before and no one really had big issues with consumables. Now that encounters are balanced around them the problem becomes apparent, that problem is with the encounters themselves and not the consumables. Change the encounter not the consumables.
Restricting consumables down to x of this and y of this isn't very elegant and it still won't solve the flower picking or gold grinding tedium. The progressively longer cooldowns on chain chugging potions would be an interesting mechanic. Probably the best one I have seen mentioned in this thread.
People that use consumables completely destroy these encounters.
Why is that a problem? Why should I care that you can kill a boss easier with extra time invested outside of the raid.
Those people who farm will then spend less time on the encounter (destroying it). Those who don't spend time farming will spend more time on the encounter (beating it with difficulty).
Going back, we also used some strange consumables in the past. We used the Blasted Lands boar buffs rather than flasks for Broodlord and lucky rocket clusters for Loatheb/Sapphiron/KT. As I understand that such items to continue to exist such as Nightmare Seeds and Dark Runes. Any consumable redesign should not overlook these items as well.
I'm not sure what the situation is on world buffs.
They could always do a more harsh version of what they did to Engineering to Alchemy.
As we know, potions are made from many rare and exotic plants, they give you side-effects and make you feel like your alot stronger! however, perhaps they could give a moderately high chance of a 'Bad Trip' so its actually risky to use them.
Its a really evil idea to go about it, but if your Mana Potion had a 33% chance to set your regeneration to 0 for 2mins you would really think twice about using one.
And no I wouldn't enjoy it this way :P the negative side-effect would be best.
Re: Diminishing returns, wouldn't be enough imo, 1st: 3000 Mana, 2nd: 2000 Mana, 3rd: 1000 mana, I would still use them each CD if it was needed, atleast the second one.
Why is that a problem? Why should I care that you can kill a boss easier with extra time invested outside of the raid.
Those people who farm will then spend less time on the encounter (destroying it). Those who don't spend time farming will spend more time on the encounter (beating it with difficulty).
Because it trivializes the encounter design. The gear should be a reward for skilled and coordinated play. Right now, raid loot (assuming it's buffed) is a reward for skilled and coordinated play AND tedium expended outside of the raid, for many or most fights. That second part of the equation is unneeded and detrimental.
If you just nerf the fights without changing anything, now tedium, instead of being an annoyingly necessary complement to skillful play, becomes a substitute for it. And then what's the point?
This thread has become another discussion about raid consumables, but I doubt that's what the implied changes in the original post are actually about. The fact is, a rationalization of buffing consumables is long overdue. I was surprised when it didn't follow hot on the heels of the simplification of restorative pots.
Buff pots are way too confusing at the moment. Mageblood stacks with BoW but greater intellect doesn't stack with AI. What gives? Do adepts elixirs stack with greater arcane? I actually have no clue. And so on.
So if they make them into nice neat categories we can all understand, then it paves the way for the next step, which is to have competing potions for each slot. Should you take the intellect pot, the mana regen pot, or the spirit pot for this encounter? Should you take dps or crit?
So as has been pointed out, it won't help the raid consumables situation much (assuming that this is what they're going to do), but it'd be nice to see buffing potions made a matter for judgement instead of popping the same ones every fight.
03/08/07, 10:38 AM
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