Threat Per Second Now A Factor?

• Viator · 03/07/07, 9:56 AM

Thought I'd pose this question to the aggro gurus out there.

This past weekend in Karazhan our GL/MT and rogue class leader noticed some interesting aggro mechanics. What would happen is that MT would have a good, solid lead in aggro (we use KTM so this is assuming it can't be chalked up to a bug there) before our rogue class leader would pop his cooldowns and some SnD. What would happen is that the rogue would pull aggro where he really shouldn't have.

They tried a few rudimentary tests and they're somewhat convinced that there's a threat per second factor coming into play with tanks holding aggro. I wasn't there as I've gone ahead and switched mains to my 62 shammy (I should update that) but I don't recall that ever being an issue. It may be something that was always there and I was ignorant of, something new I didn't notice or the Karazhan trash (different types) acting weird.

Any thoughts?

Muggins · 03/07/07, 10:05 AM

The actual trash mob that it happened on is important, as quite a few of them have aggro drops. Apart from the obvious(and thrice damned) Ushers, the Stagehands will also drop aggro when they net people for example. There are a couple more but i can't put names to them at the moment for lack of memory.

If you're able to find out which mobs they tried these tests on it would help.

• Viator · 03/07/07, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Muggins

The actual trash mob that it happened on is important, as quite a few of them have aggro drops. Apart from the obvious(and thrice damaned) Ushers, the Stagehands will also drop aggro when they net people for example. There are a couple more but i can't put names to them at the moment for lack of memory.

If you're able to find out which mobs they tried these tests on it would help.

I know that they tried it on a few. The Ushers were one though it should be noted that they noticed the problem prior to the freeze. Some of the trash around Moroes, though I don't know specifically which ones. My first reaction was that there was an aggro shedding mechanic but my GL seems reasonably convinced there may have been something else going on.

Muggins · 03/07/07, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Viator

The Ushers were one though it should be noted that they noticed the problem prior to the freeze.

The Ice Tomb effect itself can be resisted or reflected, yet the aggro drop will still happen. So while it may appear that Ice Tomb hasn't occurred strictly from an eyes-on point of view, it will in effect still cause the aggro transfer that they were picking up.

Brissa · 03/07/07, 10:40 AM

Might just be that ktm reports iffy values but I dont know.
I know I have pulled aggro on Arcane protectors and Illhoof even though I was only at 80-90% of the MTs threat.

• Viator · 03/07/07, 10:58 AM

I think my GL is going to post on here since he can obviously offer more specifics than I can. I wasn't aware he had an account. So we'll see if he gets bored at work.

Radical · 03/07/07, 1:38 PM

Now that you mention it, this did seem to be a factor with some Mag attempts we had recently. On the 2nd and/or 3rd mobs we would get to, ppl would pull aggro. This would seem to be nearly impossible given the 30sec head start the tanks would have on the 2nd mob, and even more on the 3rd.

If there is a new dynamic to threat (ie. threat per second), then giving tanks a head start on mobs would be less helpful and will certainly change things for dpsers relative to multi-mob pulls.

Grymm · 03/07/07, 1:59 PM

Well, I guess I will be figuring this out first hand then. I OT karazhan and DPS on some bosses (maiden/curator/wolf). During execute phase, I can hit 1800 TPS and maintain well over 1000 TPS. This is after the tank has been building a fairly good lead. I've pulled many times before KTM says I even pulled even with threat. I merely assume that once you hit 80%, KTM is just a guestimate. I don't think they would change threat mechanics like that. Also, with TC available in Def Stance, KTM might not be calculating it correctly if your tank is using it frequently.

Suesse · 03/07/07, 2:29 PM

Originally Posted by Viator

(we use KTM so this is assuming it can't be chalked up to a bug there)

I don't think this is a good assumption. First thing I'd suggest is checking your MT's and rogue's KTM version (if the MT is using an inaccurate version, it will report inaccurate data to the whole raid -- your bug fixed version won't fix his errors).

Deris · 03/07/07, 2:52 PM

With the new Druid changes, and flat threat bonus added to their abilities - maybe this theory holds some water as a new raid mechanic? I believe this does merit more testing.

Thezilch · 03/07/07, 5:15 PM

Using KTM 19.8, modified for Shadowpriest changes, I've not experienced a change. We cleared Gruul and half of Karazhan, Tuesday. At the very least, I was matching MT threat, according to KTM. On KZ trash, I could ride the 120-30% mark.

No combat mechanics have changed from my perception. However, there are plans to visit Blasted Lands sometime this week to iron out Shadowpriest support on KTM, because it is lacking. In particular, I believe it is unclear if Shadow Affinity affects the vampirics of VE/VT.

Axium · 03/07/07, 5:45 PM

There have been some weird things happen in Kara, but I've always chalked it up to either a bug or strange mob threat mechanics. Like for example there have been a few instances where there'd be a two-pull, and the mob I was OTing would stick to the MT after the pull even though I was building threat on it (certainly enough to overcome bloodrage aggro).

There have also been more than a few instances of DPS pulling and no one really having any good inkling why it happened. Most of the sensible explanations of events like these were ruled out through discussion/repetition (tank mistakenly building threat on my mob after the pull, salv/wrong stances, etc, DPS just simply pulling) so I've wondered since if there are some new flavors of threat mechanics out there on certain mobs.

Fellwraith · 03/07/07, 6:18 PM

Originally Posted by Muggins

The actual trash mob that it happened on is important, as quite a few of them have aggro drops. Apart from the obvious(and thrice damaned) Ushers, the Stagehands will also drop aggro when they net people for example. There are a couple more but i can't put names to them at the moment for lack of memory.

If you're able to find out which mobs they tried these tests on it would help.

This is probably the heart of the issue. You may have a deaggro occur immediately before your tank shield slams or does another high threat combo, and that keeps him ahead of you, so most of the time you don't notice it.

When we first dealt with the stagehands, we never noticed the deaggro on the nets because people were taking it easy and I managed to stay pretty far ahead of the rest of the raid. The next week people were more comfortable so they were pushing the dps a lot harder and getting killed.

There's also a few mobs that stun or knockdown, which can cause you to catch up to the tank very quickly if you were riding their threat generation a little too closely.

I've noticed some strange phenomena with Quagmirren in heroic pens and some of the mobs in Botanica, but I really haven't spent enough time experimenting with them to form a theory yet. In almost every case, it's not TPS that seems to be causing it, but an action that appears to be a deaggro.

alienangel · 03/07/07, 6:20 PM

Originally Posted by Axium

There have been some weird things happen in Kara, but I've always chalked it up to either a bug or strange mob threat mechanics. Like for example there have been a few instances where there'd be a two-pull, and the mob I was OTing would stick to the MT after the pull even though I was building threat on it (certainly enough to overcome bloodrage aggro).

Just a thought, the mob you were tanking could have been misdirected to the MT - I know I've MD to the wrong target, or MD'd the wrong mob on occasion. No one seems to notice until I do it to Maulgar :x

Emily · 03/07/07, 7:22 PM

Originally Posted by Fellwraith

I've noticed some strange phenomena with Quagmirren in heroic pens

Quagmirran wipes threat after his Geyser attack, but the point at which he wipes threat is very hard to figure out. You have to ride a fine line between taunting too late, in which case his geyser annihilates your group, or taunting too soon and watching him deaggro AFTER taunt and run amok on your chums til taunt CD is up or you blow AoE taunt.

Axium · 03/07/07, 7:50 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

Just a thought, the mob you were tanking could have been misdirected to the MT - I know I've MD to the wrong target, or MD'd the wrong mob on occasion. No one seems to notice until I do it to Maulgar :x

Yeah we ran through all the probable scenarios and didn't come up with anything. Only thing we arrived at was the mobs might have had some kind of small linked aggro like Thaddius adds but it was still strange.

PsiVen · 03/08/07, 6:15 PM

KTM19.8 has been very reliable in my experience. I haven't encountered any out-of-the-ordinary aggro pulling.

As a sidebar, Curator quickly becomes interesting if your shadow priest stays above your threat level. "Hey, why am I eating hateful bolts?"