Dragonspine Trophy Analysis - Page 12

Modrack · 08/20/07, 8:25 PM

Originally Posted by Kaber

Which spec are we talking about for a warrior? I was under the impression haste was not good for slam, but incredibly good for fury.

Davia is talking about stat weightings for dual wield fury. Haste is a useful stat, roughly about as good as crit. The problem for warriors is that a lot of our haste gear is very narrowly focused in stat distribution. Belt of seething fury and swiftsteel bracers are the perfect examples, all they have is stamina, strength, and haste. So when you reduce the effectiveness of haste by 33%, these items that are already modest upgrades over the T5 crafted pieces become downgrades. I've stacked passive haste up to almost 20% and seen no extraordinary dps gains over stacking crit and strength. If this rating change goes through I'll probably go back to using T5 level pieces in place of my current bt/hyjal level haste gear in several slots.

Morelis · 08/20/07, 8:38 PM

Originally Posted by Ren

Ok, here's some real world examples...

Originally Posted by Morelis

If you understood itemization half as much as you think you do you'd see what a terrible pointless example that is. Your first ring spends 50 stat points, the second spends 70 so of course it's the superior item. To simplify, when an item designer is making an item each "stat" costs 1 point, that includes agi, str, int, spi and crit, hit and haste rating. Stam costs 0.66 per point, and 1 point will also buy you 2 ap. Don't take my word for it though go to your favorite item database site and use those values to add up items of similar ilvls they'll score roughly equal, even the ones with haste.

I've bolded the important parts, my post wasn't intended as a complete lecture on item design contraints. It was just a quick dissection of why his example was flawed and a reminder that haste isn't treated any differently than any other stat.

Kaber · 08/20/07, 8:53 PM

Originally Posted by Morelis

I've bolded the important parts, my post wasn't intended as a complete lecture on item design contraints. It was just a quick dissection of why his example was flawed and a reminder that haste isn't treated any differently than any other stat.

I am well aware of how iLevel stats are taken into account and iLevel on items. My example may have been poor, but I was trying to make a point about how poorly haste items are actually implemented, which the poster above you speaking of warrior haste gear has made a much better example of. Your 2 page long flame about how I do not understand iLevels is off the mark, as it is very easy to see stat valuations simply by looking at the trend gems follow. Yes, it was a much too hasty example on my part as I did not actually account of iLevel in it, but if you compare the bands of devastation to rings with the same iLevel, you will find the stat distributions are much better for most other rings from a DPS standpoint.

The fact that you repeated almost verbatim my sentiment about mages not getting the same investment out of haste as though you were contradicting me indicates to me that I probably did not state my position as clearly as I could have. My point is if a mage had 20 points on haste on an item and a rogue had 20 points on the same item, the mage gained far less of an actual DPS increase while spending the same iLevel points.

Actually I can point to the sims used in the class mechanics forum as evidence, using them tells me that haste is well balanced right now and the proposed change will make it worse than any other melee dps stat. But once again don't take my word for it, feel free to test it for yourself. They may not be perfect but they're a hell of a lot better than your gut instinct. I know which one I'll put more value in.

Feel free to look over my sims of how haste affects hunters if you want to try and flame my knowledge of the game or my class and call it a "gut instinct." In the T6 gear level a hunter with hastes out DPSes one without by anywhere between 8-15%. Perhaps I generalized what happens to hunters with haste across to other classes, but I know for certain rogues see similar increases with haste. Every class has stats that aren't very useful to them, and for shaman its going to be haste. Big deal, you can gain the same amount of benefit from other items so you will not see a change in DPS. Hunters and rogues on the other hand, see far too large of an increase in DPS with haste.

panny · 08/21/07, 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by Kaber

If haste is so worthless when you get to T6, why would you care so much about it getting nerfed? If different classes are to value stats at different levels, again I ask, why do you care if something that was clearly overpowered for most classes gets nerfed? Congratulations on turning the topic of haste to be entirely about shaman and no one else. I stand by my point that haste in its current form is far too powerful. Maybe you want a special case to be made for shaman to keep it as is, but seeing as how both hit and crit give the same amounts across the board, I don't think you are going to be successful (THAT was my point about hit/crit having the same value, ie: 22 CR for 1% for all of us, I am well aware that 1% crit affects everyone in a slightly different manner).

Fine, I was wrong about shaman getting the biggest return out of haste, I do not bother researching them because I have never had a need to, so excuse me for making generalizations about physical DPS across the board (before someone hops in about druids, I am well aware they gain less from haste than most). However, Rogues, Hunters, and Warriors (with the exception of slam spammers) all gain an incredible amount with haste. When it gets to the point where classes would gain so much more by stacking haste over everything else, there is a problem. At least with Hit rating there is a cap on it's effectiveness, so one cannot simply stack it ad naseum over other damage stats. Whether or not these people were utilizing the haste is another story, and has no bearing and is not evidence to "haste being a poor stat choice."

You can have your argument about shaman not getting much out of haste, but once again, why should a haste nerf have anything to do with you if it is such a poor stat?

That is exactly what I said, if you took the time to actually read my words we wouldnt be having quite this big an issue.

When you act like an ass about mechanics, it helps to be right about them. It also helps to not make excuses about being wrong about them. You've already had people respond and tell you that haste isn't optimal for Enhancement Shaman and Warriors. You've had priority of shots for Hunters wrong.

Of course the haste nerf influences us. It's not an optimal stat, but since we don't get to choose the distribution of stats on gear, it impacts our gear choice, just like +dodge on rogue gear did. That should be obvious.

I'm undecided on the reasonability of the haste nerf, but your arguments are absurd.

panny · 08/21/07, 1:01 AM

Originally Posted by Kaber

I am well aware of how iLevel stats are taken into account and iLevel on items. My example may have been poor, but I was trying to make a point about how poorly haste items are actually implemented, which the poster above you speaking of warrior haste gear has made a much better example of. Your 2 page long flame about how I do not understand iLevels is off the mark, as it is very easy to see stat valuations simply by looking at the trend gems follow. Yes, it was a much too hasty example on my part as I did not actually account of iLevel in it, but if you compare the bands of devastation to rings with the same iLevel, you will find the stat distributions are much better for most other rings from a DPS standpoint.

The fact that you repeated almost verbatim my sentiment about mages not getting the same investment out of haste as though you were contradicting me indicates to me that I probably did not state my position as clearly as I could have. My point is if a mage had 20 points on haste on an item and a rogue had 20 points on the same item, the mage gained far less of an actual DPS increase while spending the same iLevel points.

So, first it's a big deal that haste have equal benefit across classes.

Originally Posted by Kaber

Feel free to look over my sims of how haste affects hunters if you want to try and flame my knowledge of the game or my class and call it a "gut instinct." In the T6 gear level a hunter with hastes out DPSes one without by anywhere between 8-15%. Perhaps I generalized what happens to hunters with haste across to other classes, but I know for certain rogues see similar increases with haste. Every class has stats that aren't very useful to them, and for shaman its going to be haste. Big deal, you can gain the same amount of benefit from other items so you will not see a change in DPS. Hunters and rogues on the other hand, see far too large of an increase in DPS with haste.

But now it's not?

Mearis · 08/21/07, 3:28 AM

Originally Posted by Morelis

My whole point was that it isn't worthless right now. Currently it's a good stat, not quite as good as str but pretty even with crit and clearly better than hit. If the changes go through as planned it will become worthless. And since I've already collected several pieces of it, which included leveling LW I'm a little peeved at having the rug yanked out from underneath me. By the way, I'm still waiting for your evidence that haste is "clearly overpowered" for other classes. I mean you just keep repeating it, but that doesn't make it true.

What would you suggest should be done to reign in melee dps at the very high end assuming top notch equipment, so that a rogue's margin over a similarly geared caster is around ~10%?

Morelis · 08/21/07, 5:47 AM

Originally Posted by Mearis

What would you suggest should be done to reign in melee dps at the very high end assuming top notch equipment, so that a rogue's margin over a similarly geared caster is around ~10%?

Well it seems to me that the problem hasn't so much been melee scaling too well as much as casters just haven't scaled enough. I know many of ours complain that their DPS stats have only increased marginally over the tailoring gear they had shortly after reaching 70, at least compared to our melee and hunters. Maybe if negative resists came back that would help, giving spell penetration some real value. But looking back now the coefficient changes for mages and the sp/warlock nerfs probably weren't needed. I always suspected those nerfs had more to do with the tailoring gear being too well itemized than with the classes themselves being overpowered. Lets hope they're not making the same kind of mistake with melee haste right now.

I also do think DST probably needs to be looked at, I love mine dearly but it really is too good for just a trinket slot. The warglaives might need tweaking as well but keeping in mind they're a legendary set they should probably be very good.

suicuique · 08/21/07, 5:48 AM

Originally Posted by Mearis

What would you suggest should be done to reign in melee dps at the very high end assuming top notch equipment, so that a rogue's margin over a similarly geared caster is around ~10%?

Wait for the next itemisation round (sunwell)?
Just as the rogues did at Kara/Gruul level. (Yes, I know that glancing was changed back then too ...)

How about just buffing caster haste and see if that suffices? Why is this kind of overreaction necessery (WF nerf + melee haste nerf)?

Mearis · 08/21/07, 5:55 AM

Originally Posted by suicuique

Wait for the next itemisation round (sunwell)?
Just as the rogues did at Kara/Gruul level. (Yes, I know that glancing was changed back then too ...)

How about just buffing caster haste and see if that suffices? Why is this kind of overreaction necessery (WF nerf + melee haste nerf)?

Because the margin between melee (most specifically rogues) and casters at the very high end is completely out of wack?

suicuique · 08/21/07, 6:27 AM

Originally Posted by Mearis

Because the margin between melee (most specifically rogues) and casters at the very high end is completely out of wack?

I'm only up to RoS, so I can't tell if it gets significantly worse ... but we still have 2-3 locks, 2-3 mages and 2-3 SP in the raid and have no intention to change that. Does not seem that out of whack to me.
(Till this point ... but this gets severely OT in this thread so I'll close with this statement).

• constantius · 08/21/07, 8:07 AM

You may want to pick some fights that are single-target focus-fire tank & spank, and look at the differential between your top caster and your top melee.

Hint: if it isn't huge, there's something wrong with your melee. The largest contributor to this scaling is haste, specifically proc haste effects.

banaj · 08/21/07, 8:20 AM

While casters got some coefficient nerfs melee got some buffs directly (glancing) and indirectly (less cleaves etc) since the start of tbc. Removing the coefficient nerf for mages will put em quite a bit higher, 10% of 1200-1500dmg (not-buffed/buffed) times all the % modifiers is quite a big difference.. like popping 2 flasks.

The crafted tailoring sets were really strong, with the tailoring set + some random items you would be around 900-1000 +fire dmg for a mage. The only hard part was to get enough hit on the rest of your items.

Nowadays mages are around 1200-1300ish general spelldmg (can go a bit higher) but it's easier to cap hit. The gear we get now is more about getting int/sta/spir and not that much focused on extra dmg (compared to straight up +fire/arcane on spellfire). Tailoring didn't have much stats which resulted in the evoc whines, but at the same time were really efficient on the dmg stats.

For the tier pieces to come close to how good tailoring items were they have to make different +dmg sets, like a fire set for fire mages.. arcane for arcane. Other classes already can turn in pieces for different spec sets, so why not make it for the more basic classes as well. This will suck when you want to switch spec ofcourse, but it's the only way of upping the dps by a lot. Dropping random stats for dmg stats would help as well, but the tier sets always were the balanced items and you would just add random cloth to get extra dmg instead of stats.

Generally rogues win in dmg, but i don't mind. It's just that sometimes they seem so far ahead that i can't even dream of doing that much dmg even with the biggest crit streak. On another note, BM hunters seem to get ridiculously strong as well with the gear they get now. That is with a cat, not the cheesy scorpion.
Hope this isn't too much of a whine post, but some information about scaling

Waiting for the next itemization round is not really a solution, cause the same thing will happen again. Maybe blizz won't introduce new tailoring sets and all the casters will be behind from the start with no hope to get even or past the melee. If they want to fix it they can just look at how all the classes turn out now at the end-game and fix it.

◊ Kaubel · 08/21/07, 10:20 AM

Kaber, shut up.

Everyone arguing with Kaber, shut up.

lux · 08/31/07, 2:02 PM

well the only thing that rogues can do is dmg. they dont buff anyone cant cc, nothing.

if they werent the highest dmg dealing class the would be absolutly useles.

blizzard always wanted to keep every dmg class below the rogues...

Morelis · 09/01/07, 3:40 PM

I was doing some testing on trinket values for enhancement shaman and it was suggested I post the DST results here as well. Uptime was measured using: Uptime Meter | Downloads

If anyone else would like to do some similar testing to see if my results were accurate that would be great.

I just finished testing DST uptime on the PTR(then on live for comparison) and according to my 30min test the proc rate has been lowered substantially. I measured 22.79% uptime over the 30mins. That seemed pretty startling so I repeated the test on the live realms and with identical gear and testing as close to the same as I can manage it scored 41.88%. I 'm sure the sample is small enough for there to be some pretty significant variation, but I'd be surprised if that much of a difference came down to chance.

For the testing I swapped out all my passive haste and haste-proc gear so the haste nerf itself should have a fairly minimal impact in the results. Here's the screenshots:

PTR - http://grig.shackspace.com/dst-ptr.jpg
Live - http://grig.shackspace.com/dst-live.jpg

Hozz · 09/01/07, 6:48 PM

Anyone else have any data? I think it was only a matter of time before it got nerfed.

Tyran · 09/01/07, 7:44 PM

After reading the above post I went to test it for myself.

Using the same addon, I did a 20+ minute test on both Live and PTR with my rogue.

Live:

PTR:

I don't have the combat log but I am almost 100% sure the trinket has a 20-25 second internal cooldown on the test server. I never saw the buff refresh itself during that test, and on live servers it happens all the time.

This is just a rough estimation, but using the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet and cutting the value of this trinket by 40% (in addition to the haste rating nerf), it still appears to be the best trinket by far.
So yeah, like the above poster said it was only a matter of time.

Sapp · 09/01/07, 10:32 PM

Haha, so they fixed Dragonspine even before changing haste?

That's a very Blizzard solution, I guess; why fix something once when you can fix it twice?

koaschten · 09/02/07, 2:53 PM

I can second the info's that Tyran provided, i ran 3 sessions of ~10 minutes each on the ptr and live realms and with (almost) identical gear i hovered between 25% uptime ptr and 45% uptime live.

Talk about more melee nerfing....

edit:
Live

PTR

◊ Praetorian · 09/02/07, 2:55 PM

...but it's still the best rogue trinket in the game, right? I mean it's kind of funny that they can nerf its uptime by almost 50% and nerf the effects of haste by 33% and it still comes out on top. Just shows how ridiculous the item was.

Morelis · 09/02/07, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

...but it's still the best rogue trinket in the game, right? I mean it's kind of funny that they can nerf its uptime by almost 50% and nerf the effects of haste by 33% and it still comes out on top. Just shows how ridiculous the item was.

I can't say for rogues but I know for shaman it's no longer the best. The Ashtongue trinket and the one from the council will both be better, the changes put DST about equal with the one from Leo. Since rogues get a little more value out of haste and a little less out of ap, I'd suspect they're in a a similar position. Good news for those who never had one drop.

Fallacy · 09/02/07, 3:44 PM

How about Drakefist/Dragonmaw/Dragonstrike? Were they affected similarly with a new internal cooldown?

LenniZ · 09/02/07, 6:17 PM

How will this trinket compare to lets say Warp-Spring Coil after this nerf?

Also, can any of you who's testing DST on PTR find out how long the internal cooldown is?

daugh · 09/02/07, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

...but it's still the best rogue trinket in the game, right? I mean it's kind of funny that they can nerf its uptime by almost 50% and nerf the effects of haste by 33% and it still comes out on top. Just shows how ridiculous the item was.

IMO it's more because there are a distinct lack of epic quality options in the trinket slots. If you think about it, what trinkets are available? Kara, theres romeo's vial (haha yay) then the only other epic quality trinket before Black temple (for all classes minus rogues) is tsunami and the threat one off vashj which is mediocre at best. So really, DST is still the best trinket for melee, not because its still actually great, but because there are no other options. Unless you feel it's right that you're still using heroic badge loot in BT than it is using Gruul loot in BT.

Switchblade · 09/02/07, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by daugh

IMO it's more because there are a distinct lack of epic quality options in the trinket slots. If you think about it, what trinkets are available? Kara, theres romeo's vial (haha yay) then the only other epic quality trinket before Black temple (for all classes minus rogues) is tsunami and the threat one off vashj which is mediocre at best. So really, DST is still the best trinket for melee, not because its still actually great, but because there are no other options. Unless you feel it's right that you're still using heroic badge loot in BT than it is using Gruul loot in BT.

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