Based on the rogue gear spreadsheet if the Proc uptime is reduced by 50%, then Dragonspine falls behind Warp-Spring Coil and Madness of the Betrayer at any level of gear currently available in the game.... guess it is time to start waiting for the -armor nerf.

They weren't horribly designed prior to the haste nerf. The items were providing similar dps as other non-haste itemized gear in the same slots from the same instance. Now they are providing similar dps to non-haste itemized items from lesser instances.

Edit: At least for Rogues and the DPS leather.

I agree with Gurg, they were terribly designed, based upon a single stat that was only so powerful because of the stacking effects of it with other attack-speed increase effects (Slice and dice, flurry, blade flurry, procs).

There are still some examples of the haste itemization that are strong pieces. Dragonspine is, obviously, one example even with the newly surfacing internal cooldown.

I also would not complain at all were someone to give me a pair of the swiftstrike bracers, because it's still probably a flat 3% (2% white, maybe 1% yellow) DPS upgrade from the haste alone, whereas with hit or crit socketed into Deadly Cuffs or Insidious Bands, you'd only wind up with about 1.25% white-DPS increase, and a marginal yellow DPS increase from increased combat potency procs.

Shadow-walker's Cord, Grips of Damnation and Swiftstrike shoulders? Yeah, those are now relatively useless compared to comparable items, but Haste has not, in and of become a useful stat, and I'm sure that if it weren't for the min/maxiness of the haste items (ie. no hit, no crit, little AP, little agi, boatloads of stam), we would be kinda annoyed by this, but not so much as seems to be the case with the present situation.

My understanding of Heroism is that it is percentage based, so it should not see any change at all from the haste rating nerf. It was 30% before and will remain 30%. Mongoose has an incredibly small haste boost when it procs, and is also percentage based as far as any testing I have seen shows (2%). The only thing in that list I can see affecting you is the Dragonspine Trophy since it is Rating based.

Or were you talking about the other Heroism?

In any event, recent testing has shown that the PPM mechanic is actually unaffected by hastes, so you should see no net change in the amount your abilities proc. If you are worried about seeing fewer white attacks for Seal of Blood, the DST is shown to currently have a 40% uptime with 30.95% haste for a total increase of white attacks by 12.38%. With the nerf dropping it to 25% uptime and 20.7% haste, you would see an increase in white attacks of 5.175%. Roughly 40% of it's original power. If you have the Dragonspine Trophy, yes it will certainly be a nerf and it may no longer be the best trinket in the game for Ret (I will leave that analysis to the Paladin theorycrafters); however the rest of your DPS (and any subsequent procs) should be completely unaffected.

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Unless I'm missing something...the post your linking is from testing on the PTR, similar tests haven't been done on live, if haste effects not affecting PPM's is new then melee dps will indeed be significantly affected.

If you refer to a link Lactose posted further down the PPM mechanics thread, it indicates that pre-2.2 hastes are not affecting Proc rates based on testing Cheeky and others did with Don Santos' rifle. They did not come to a definitive answer as it was discovered late in the thread, but the theory and analysis look solid.

Since I have the Mark of Conquest, Don Santos' rifle, iAotH, and a few haste items I can take a long test run at Dr. Boom this coming weekend to see what I find on live servers (assuming 2.2 does not go live before I get a chance to do this). If there is an undocumented change in the way haste affects PPM it would certainly be a fairly big change for melee and archery. However, based on the findings in the spread sheet analysis thread it would seem that procs on the PTR may be acting the same as they currently do on live.

If it works like this, more haste lowers % chance to proc to keep the ppm constant, this will mean Rogues and other classes with a lot of instant attacks will see a lower proc chance even on their instant attacks, on every instant attack the more haste we have. This will have a great inpact on us rogues (And fury warriors) who have SnD up all the time, that will reduce our PPMFS (proc per min from specials) by 30% PLUS Everytime we use BF/other haste giving effects.

If this goes live... a tip is to NEVER use BF + AR at the same time as it will lower your proc chance.

The testing done was ONLY one white damage, Rosvall.

Also, it still isnt confirmed that it ALREADY is/isnt like this.

If this is accurate, its a step that will start to balance ppm effects between fast or slow weapon builds.

Given an item with a ppm effect, the chance to proc it, per swing is higher on a slower weapon, and a rogue will spam sin strike with slower weapons. Dagger builds get less ppm procs due to the chance being lower, with a faster weapon, and backstab costing 50% more energy than Sinister Strike. Honestly, if this goes live, its good news for dagger builds, its a first step to bring ppm effects between sin strike and backstab builds closer.

Nerfing something to bring it in line with something else has never been good news. For anyone.

Your logic is comparable to the analogy I saw somewhere;

"If Blizzard has two bridges, one is broken and the other is fine, the way to balance these would be to blow up the working bridge. Behold! Balance is restored!"

Tested a couple things:
instants still proc weapon enchants- Shived til mongoose procced with no auto attacks. Yay.
Mongoose procs went up with only auto attack and sinister strike but ppm went down when running slice and dice.

I have to go back and do a larger sample but if I can believe procwatch (annoying since I cant click off mongoose to catch the refreshes) then instants are unaffected by this change but there is indeed a very real problem with haste causing an actual drop in proc rate.

PPM increased from using 1 weapon with mongoose to using 2 so the ppm isnt linked or anything silly like that. I'll get a large sample tomorrow hopefully.

I'd have to agree that, by the looks of WWS mind you and not first hand experience, rogues in T6 needs adjustment (nerf), my comment was aimed specifically at nerfing PPMs in relation to haste and daggers vs sword/mace/fist.

Making sword/mace/fist rogues worse to bring them in line with a spec that needs attention is not the right way of doing things.

I think the issue here is not that rogues need a nerf, but that this nerf may have side effects that you would be fairly safe to assume the developers are not aware of. It also impacts a specific type of rogue (daggers) more than the SS spam specs. I.E. The nerf is needed, but might be going about it the wrong way. Of course as it is not yet confirmed how haste affects PPM, this is still all pure conjecture.

I agree completely that sometimes it's necessary to nerf rather than buff to restore balance.

Your math is flawed. An assumed 2% increase in white damage and 1% increase in yellow damage do not equal a 3% total DPS increase. But something between 1% and 2%, depending on your white/yellow ratio.
Beides: 27 haste rating on bracers = 1.7% haste

Glancing change?

That was no hotfix but occured quite some time after TBC had been released. Therefore they had enough time to be aware of the impacts and didn't 'oh shit, we fucked up, we need to change this asap'.

Notice I mentioned "If"

Also, just to clarify. Chance to proc is (PPM/(60/Speed of weapon)). So with a 2.0 mainhand and a 1ppm, you'd see (1/(60/2)) = 1/30 = 3.333 chance to proc per hit.

With a 1.0 speed it would be 1/60 = 1.667 chance to proc per hit.

With the 2.0 speed MH you would have 3.333 per SS to proc "Outside the white ppm". With SnD active the chance would be reduced to (1/(60/1.4)) = 2.333% chance to proc.

Thus reducing the procs we'll see by quite a lot. Depending on how much haste you have you'll see a drop of ~30-45% in total procs if this goes live.

In regards to the doom and gloom on the dst I'm hearing, I just ran uptime meter on a lvl 57 in blasted lands, on the ptr and live. With daggers, you can look at my profile, on the ptr I had 32% uptime in 10 minutes of non buffed combat, and on live I have 38% uptime in 10 minutes of non buffed combat. I used the 10 minutes, as it should produce useable ratios between the ptr and live. Its a nerf, but its not the 45% to 22% drop I read earlier.

The longer you run the test the more accurate the results are going to be, since your test was by far the shortest it's safe to say your results will be the least accurate.

No, there have been two tests done like I did them, and I doubled the time of one, and am close to the time of the other. I dont have an issue with my numbers, most in combat scenarios will see less time total than I ran the test for.

No, I did 30 mins on each server, Tyran did 20 mins on each server, and koaschten did 3 tests of 10 min each on both servers. You did a single test of 10 mins on each server. Also it doesn't matter if most fights are shorter than your test time, what is important is the average uptime of the proc and the longer your test is the more accurate the results are going to be.

10 minutes of unbuffed time was 15 minutes of combat time, apperently I did not explain that correctly. I was comparing yran and Koa's results.

Does this have anything to do with the fact Im running daggers, and I Kao/Tyran looked to be running swords?

Another thing. The cooldown of 20 seconds being thrown about. Usually I start counting the cooldown once the affect fades, I guess that may be incorrect. However, from the log when I was testing a few minutes ago:

9/4 13:26:16.546 You gain Haste.
9/4 13:26:37.156 You gain Haste.

20.5 seconds between procs with a 10 second duration does not look to me to be a significant proc rate nerf in itself.