• Aldriana

1) Internal cooldowns are generally stated from proc start to proc start. So the cooldown on this bugger is 20 seconds, meaning that no two procs can start within 20 sec of each other.

2) What does this mean in practice? Well, previously, the average time from start of one proc to start of the next was about 14 seconds for a combat sword rogue. This has been increased to 14 + 20 = 34 seconds. Now, since some of the procs overlapped pre-nerf, the actual loss of DPS isn't the factor of 2.5 implied by that calculation; however, it drops it from ~52% uptime for a sword rogue in a sustained DPS situation down to ~29% uptime, which is a fairly significant nerf.

3) That said, even with the 33% effect nerf and 45% uptime nerf, it's *still* clearly the best rogue trinket. Which means a) there's a reasonable chance it'll get nerfed yet again, and b) it very much needed a nerf to start with.

Personally, I'm hoping they increase the internal cooldown to ~45 seconds, do the same for the warglaive set bonus, and revert the haste nerf. But we'll see what happens.

 

Antiarc

A change from 14 sec to 20.5 sec per proc is not a significant nerf. However, you just got lucky on that proc. If the average time-to-proc stays at 14 sec after the PPM change (which I'm doubtful of, to be honest), then you're now looking at an average of 34 sec to proc the trinket, as opposed to the previous 14 sec. Its effective PPM rate is more than cut in half.

 

Tyran

The lower uptime you saw on Live servers could be explained by the generally accepted theory for ppm-procs. Your instant attacks were getting a lower proc chance because of the faster weapon speed (dagger).
As for the 32% on PTR: I just went back to make sure nothing was changed and I found an uptime somewhere around 25% again, so I'm not sure how there could be such a large difference between the other 3 tests and yours.

The 20 second cooldown is just something I guessed by manually observing the buff on the PTR. The quickest refreshes were around 21-22 seconds after the previous proc and never faster than 20 seconds (or 10 seconds after the effect expired). I agree the proc rate itself doesn't appear to be changed.

 

Spork

Ok, I've been though some spreadsheets and what not, but can't find a definate answer in thoes.

There has been some debate in my guild forums about who this should really go to first (dkp aside). The first DTS went to a hunter in the guild and there was alot of fuss from the rogues being that DTS is probably the best rogue trinket in the game. The hunters on our forums say that DTS will increase their total dps (as BM) by upto 15%.

I was wondering if anyone knew rough number range of how DTS will effect combat rogues (swords/daggers) and if it really is significant increase over how it effects hunters. Hunters on my forums are also saying that clipping really isn't a bad thing and a hunter (BM) with .1s lag can incrause their dps by 100+.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

dukes

It's the best trinket for everyone, period. Tell your rogues to stop whining and save DKP if they want it so badly. Isn't that the point of a DKP system?

 

p o j

This statement is surely insightful! Arguably yes, it's the best trinket for any physical dps class depending on gear and setup. However, it is clearly more beneficial to/on certain classes and specs than others.

You can't stop the love train, baby.

 

◊ Praetorian

DTS has been and continues to be rogue-only for us until every t6 raiding rogue has it. Any physical damage DPS class can make good use of it, but if you want to purely min/max your raid DPS, then all else being equal (gear, skill, attendance, etc. -- obviously it'd be better in the hands of an awesome hunter than a clueless rogue) it should go to a rogue.

 

dukes

If you take it on a class by class basis, you end up with "this is the best trinket in the game for rogues" and "this is the best trinket in the game for hunters". What he seemed to be asking for was clarification on whether it actually is good for hunters, and I merely stated that it's the best trinket for any physical DPS class as of this point in time.

That aside, yes rogues gain the most advantage out of it, but that's partly due to their ridiculous DPS in the first place. It's an amplification trinket rather than a set damage trinket (haste scales a lot better than other stats in general for rogues, and rogues, especially non-dagger, have a very high percentage of white damage) so it's a substantial gain to whoever is your top DPSer.

Obviously, taken in context, if your hunters are outDPSing your rogues by 200-300 DPS, it should probably go to a hunter for pure min-maxing RDPS. Or just give it to a rogue and slap them round the face 'til they learn how to DPS properly.

It would of course be nice if it dropped more often. We've still only ever seen one.

 

Spork

Thanks for the help.

 

Kaber

There is a lot more testing in that thread now, all of which contradicts conventional wisdom. The PTR and Live servers are acting the same way, so there is no nerf to PPM mechanics.

 

Kaber

BM is closer to 8%, while MM can get up to 15%. I have a thread on hunter hastes that analyzes the DST and haste builds for hunters in the class mechanics forums. A quick search should bring it up.

I have yet to see an analysis on the DST across all classes that was not flawed in some way or showed a definitive "winner" that determines who gets the most out of the DST. The problem with most of them is that people know their own classes very well, but start trying to analyze other classes without a full understanding of them and do not have a solid grasp on how the other class works (which you can see me doing earlier in this thread like a moron).

I would like to see each class fully analyze their own total DPS increase from the DST, and once we have that we can compare everyone's results across the board. We have to keep in mind that if a rogue saw a 5% increase in DPS, then they would probably beat out an 8% increase from hunters because their base DPS is already much higher, and the DST only applies to the hunter's personal damage rather than their over-all damage.

 

Cheeky

This isn't entirely true. There are lots of proc-based things ([Don Santos' Famous Hunting Rifle], Go For theThoat, etc.) that directly translate into increased pet DPS as well. Also, for a Hunter this trinket will, in most cases, increase both white and yellow damage. For MM/Survival Hunters it has a nice side effect of improving mana efficiency through dropping from a 1:1.5 rotation to 1:1. Or increasing the benefit from Judgment of Wisdom. The hunter spreadsheet should be accurately accounting for all of these things.

I think if you want to look at allocation from purely a raid-DPS standpoint, give it to the Hunter or Rogue who is doing the most damage without one. They are probably more likely to get a higher % of the potential this trinket unlocks.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

koaschten

Just to toss you some numbers Kaber, completely unbuffed Daemona does ~1076dps with the faction trinket from BT and DST, switching DST to Madness of the Betrayer will result in ~1027dps.
Adding "reasonable" raid-buffs (motw, blessings, battleshout, windfury, ap flask, agi food, str totem, deadly offhand) leaving out the rarer buffs like mangle, lotp, hunter buffs and unleashed rage, i end up with ~1557dps with DST and ~1472dps with Madness of the Betrayer. These Numbers are POST 2.2 nerf.

*wondering if this is even remotely of interest anyway*

 

• constantius

Much higher? Depends on your level of progression. Pre-BT, rogues and hunters can be entirely comparable. The difference is a maximum of 20-25% for personal dps - hunters hover around 950-1050 + pet, and rogues hover around 1150-1250. You could make the argument that BT scales it even more, which is true, but using your percentages and those figures ...

Hunter: 8% = 80 dps
Rogue: 5% = 60 dps

Hunter wins.

Now, scale the rogue up over 1450 personal dps, and keep the hunter fixed, and then the biggest upgrade goes to the rogue. But I have yet to see a WWS of a rogue breaking 1450 dps in pre-BT gear. I'm not even sure it's possible without gimmicks -- multiple heroisms, etc..

 

• Aldriana

In end SSC/TK gear it's possible for a rogue to hit 1400-1500 DPS, but that's the extreme upper end and, in practice, most rogues will start getting Hyjal/BT gear before they get every single upgrade from SSC/TK. But it is possible without excessive gimmickage, just rare.

 

Mideci

Well, raiding hunters that are interested in DPS maxing are currently spec-ed BM, not MM, so in terms of min-maxing, the benefit to MM hunters is interesting, but not to your guild really.

And a random haste proc for hunters can be something of a mixed blessing. Clipping is a real hunter issue and not conducive to dps maximization. Dynamically altering what you're doing based on a random proc is not an entirely easy thing to do optimally.

For rogues, the DST is retardedly simple to gain the full benefit from. You don't do anything differently other than perhaps wait till the DST procs again before smacking Blade Flurry. You are keeping up SnD ahead of all anyway.

I'd be very reluctant to give this to a hunter over a decent rogue in a loot council. I'd be very annoyed with a guild hunter that took it over me playing my rogue. I'd be annoyed if I as a hunter of melee shaman couldn't use my DKP to take the trinket if I wanted it and had the points. But if the rogues were still without it, I might consider spending my points elsewhere in the meantime. I mean if there is spell damage gear with crit on it while I raid on my shadow priest, I kinda like to make sure the mages that want it all have it already before I make my move. Crit is largely wasted on me, even if the piece is otherwise an upgrade. In fact, spell hit is wasted on me until I can get enough to re-deploy a talent point so I treat hit gear similarly.

Even with the nerf, rogues are going to want this thing badly. Hunters generally value it somewhat less highly. If they want it, however, and are comparably skilled to your rogues, well, you probably shoudn't do anythign extraordnary to stop them from getting it too.

 

Vanadi

Vanadi - WWS

Thats a WWS parse from a Morogrim attempt some weeks ago. My gear is mainly t4 and I dont have any passive haste or armour ignore items but even in my gear getting around 1400-1500 dps is quite doable on certain fights.

 

Fugazor

Happened just 2 days ago.
Fug - WWS

Problem with hunter DPS is that you need to be VERY lucky to have good hunter in guild. Normal hunters do 600-800 dps (yes with pet). Good hunters will do 1000-1200 but are almost impossible to get.

On the other side rogues doing 1000+ are easy to get as there are more of them and mastering rogue is just much easier.

And that is pre-BT, hunter scale like shit and is blowed up by rogues in BT. Therefore it is better to "invest" DST in rogue.

Anyhow we got 3 DST, 2 went to dps warriors (both are not raiding now), one went to ench shammy (that quit soon after). Next one will go to dps warrior too as he have saved dkp for that since forever. Problem is it will never drop and we don't do gruul anymore anyway. Well not much to care about with incoming 2.2 nerfs it will not be THAT THAT much better anymore so I think I will stay with tsunami + warp coil until next expansion.

 

Cos-

Way to go. Can you post a Solarian wws? or maybe we can get the rogue below you to post a morogrim since Solarian dps is a poor example of anything but ego stroking until you get into the hilarious 1 port phase kill stuff.

 

• constantius

Wow Web Stats
- Survival hunter doing 1370 dps

Wow Web Stats
- BM hunter doing 1385 dps

Note that both of these kills, our rogues were not giving an Enh Shaman (he's away for 3 weeks), so had to settle for a resto. We're currently working on Kael, and neither of those hunters has more than 3 pieces of T5 (just to give a scale).

It's good to see that 1500 dps is doable from rogues. That does make the balance lie slightly toward rogues over hunters, assuming the 5% / 8% thing is actually correct (it isn't, most likely).

Just wanted to show that hunters aren't as useless as most people have experienced. We have *very* good hunters, and they earn their raid spots through top-notch dps.

Our DSTs have gone to hunter, rogue, rogue, just in case someone was curious.

 

Zurai

You're doing AOE damage there. Try single target for a valid comparison.

 

• constantius

He still did 1396 dps to Morogrim. He barely touched the murlocs.

 

tict

I would be annoyed if you were in my loot council. I gained over 100DPS (with DST) from my WWS on sustained DPS fights. I have several posts in hunters threads showing "before/after" WWS links.

The trinket is single handedly the best trinket in game (even post nerf) for hunters. With my tests on the PTR, I havent noticed much of a nerf. The haste nerf doesn't really affect BM since we are limited by the 1.5 sec global cooldown. THe new haste numbers (with a 2.9 sec wep) put me right where I want to be and not clip shots. Previously I was slightly clipping with DST. So I could actually see a bit of a buff. I also (after over 1 hour of DR. Boom combat) am noting as a BM it is almost always re-procing in the 20-40sec range. Now that it doesn't proc on top of procs, I think I will not be seeing "wasted procs". 20 sec cooldown seems like a blessing in disguise. I can now safely use rapid fire (right after a proc finishes) without worrying about it being wasted. Thats even more time I can be hasted. So it appears to me the PPM on the DST is basically the same for BM with nerf. With less wasted procs. The haste nerf affects melee dps, but not a BM due to the global cooldown being our limit anyways. So IMO it actually is better for a hunter then a rogue (post nerf). However, I say give it to who has the DKP as long as they are a good DPS'er. I hate hearing guilds giving this to only rogues. Talk about short sited. Do some research. This trinket is very high on most hunter's lists.

Edit: Here are the WWS links as they havent expired yet:

Gruul Kill w/out DST typically 900-950ish DPS (same gear otherwise):
Wow Web Stats
Gruul Kill w DST typically 1000-1060 DPS (same gear otherwise):
Wow Web Stats

I can provide weeks of WWS kills with me in the 1000-1200 DPS range with this trinket. I couldn't pass 1K before DST consistently.

 

Cryingleaf

Not taking any side in this argument as far as the Hunters vs. Rogues DPS debate goes. But I just wanted to post my WWS to show that it is possible to achieve 1400+ dps on Morogrim and I was only graved once, and didn't have any extra damage from Blade Flurry.

I still have 4 pieces of t4 and 1 piece of t5.

WWS

 

Cyrithor

I could provide a WWS of myself in blues/Karazhan/T4 pre-WF nerf breaking 1800 on Tidewalker. Gear has progeressed since then, and Windfury has changed, but 1500 dps in that gearing stage is more than do-able if conditions are met.

Edit: As far as the Rogue vs Hunter vs Anyone else debate, for our guild we decided that due to our Rogues being the backbone of our raid's dps that the Trophey would be going to them first. Our hunters are traditionally... less than optimal as far as min maxing, gearing, and preformance so giving them to our hunters was never even really a consideration. In addition, our one great hunter had deemed that the trinket due to its random proc rate and non consistant haste would do more to hinder his shot cycle than would do him good. Being unable to time the haste with QS, I guess was his primary concern. I'm sure however if we had still been doing Gruul he would have picked one of them up at least to test. A few of our DPS warriors picked them up after our Rogues had theirs, to round out how we've given them out.