Gristle

Our loot council allocated the DST's we dropped to our highest attending (90%+) raiders who generally do the highest dps to maximise the effect of this great trinket.

Ours went to: Hunter > Fury War > Rogue > Hunter > Fury War, so far. Still farming gruul for some more roguelove).

We usually tend towards an optimised hunter group with 3x BM hunters, SP and feral (or 2x BM Hunter with that plus a resto shaman)

 

• Intermission

As a hunter with DST, I'd gladly swap it with a rogue if I could. I got it on our second Gruul kill, the vast majority of people at the time presumed it was terrible, so I picked it up.

It's certainly a bit of a love/hate with my DST. I'm an aussie BM hunter, so with 450-500ms in raids, temp haste buffs can really piss me off at times. Then again, when DST procs when IAotH doesnt proc, its amazing. I get almost full use out of the haste. It is still great even with BL or IAoTH, but every time it happens it reminds me just how fucked hunter shots are atm.

At the moment (up to Sharhaz) I am usually topping dps above rogues/locks, aside from encounters where I am kiting/tanking/etc, or some other restriction. Najentus, Teron, Souls, and similar tank/spank fights, our rogues are usually behind me and sitting around our marks hunter, just above the Survival. Whether or not that is because of me having DST and no rogues having it.. I'm not sure. Ive only ever seen once drop, my own ~6 months ago.

 

Zandig

It's certainly possible. Although this is a BT fight, I have no gear past SSC/TK.

Wow Web Stats

This WWS parse does not include damage while ghosted. I had one other person in my group with drums of battle, so they were up approximately 50% of the time. I was also in an absolutely optimal group setup. I had an enhance shaman, a battle shout and a feral druid, although I believe both the drood and warrior got ghosted at some point before the end of the fight. The warrior also was an arms warrior, so I was getting an extra 4% damage there.

On Morogrim, with a resto shaman, and either LotP OR battle shout (we often run with 3 rogues), I usually pull 1350-1400 single target dps (we aoe the murlocks away from morogrim). I'll try and find a parse for this.

It is very possible for a rogue in pre-BT gear to pull out numbers in the 1400-1500 range with an optimal group.

 

Vanadi

Sorry my guild isn't on solarian yet.

 

Kaber

I was throwing out numbers as an example, I have not seen an analysis from rogues yet, so I really have no idea what kind of gain they see. All I know is I plugged it into their spread sheet once and saw a 2.5% DPS increase, but I do not know how accurate that is (and 8% is accurate for BM hunters. Up to 15% for MM - and the DST can make MM a better raid spec than BM because it creates a mana efficient rotation in conjunction with iAotH, though post-nerf we will see).

As for the way we determine who gets this item: whoever has the DKP to get it, does. But our officers are kept informed by class leaders (and most of the officers are class leaders anyway) about bad decisions on loot. If a rogue that can barely do 600 DPS wanted this over one of our other DPSers that regularly breaks 1k, we would stop that from happening. Currently we have 2 shaman and 1 rogue with it. I'm pretty low on the totem pole for DKP, but I would push for our MM to get this item next since he has the DKP and he would benefit a lot more than anyone else at this point.

 

Gryzemuis

The biggest difference between the two spreadsheets seems to be that they disagree on items with haste rating and procs. The rogue gear dps sheet seems to give more worth to items like Dragonstrike Trophy and Dragonmaw/Dragonstrike. If you had checked the rogue gear spreadsheet, you would have seen more than 2.5%. With my gear (T4 level), switching from Hourglass to DST gives a 10% increase.

A simple estimate for the effectiveness of the DST for a rogue.
DST gives a 30% haste increase.
Assume 50% uptime.
Assume a combat rogue does 65% white dps, and 5% poison dps.
DST means that 70% of his dps will be boosted 15% on average.
That is an overall 10.5% increase in dps.
On top of that, there will be more combat potency procs for more sinister strikes.
And there will be 15% more procs like Mongoose, Dragonmaw/strike, meta-gem, etc.

This should show that a DST is at least a 10-11% increase for any rogue.
Not 2.5%.

 

Carisana

Unfortunately we still have yet to even see 1 DST, for our rogues/hunters.

But here is a WWS Parse of an Anetheron kill where Caiamity has no BT/Hyjal gear doing
1636dps

Group was the typical melee group, Warrior/Enh Shammy/Druid/Rogue/Rogue

 

Hydraton

As it stands my guild has 3 gruul kills under our belt so far. Most of the time on Gruul's we have 2 hunters (sometimes 3) in the top 3 dps spots then followed by a mix of the other DPS classes (usually depends who is on their A-game that day as well as the group setup they have).

Apparently we are very lucky because all 3 of our Gruul kills has resulted in a DST dropping. The first two went to hunters ( myself included) and the third went to our highest DPS rogue. The rogue is dagger specced however, and I have read that DST is best for combat rogues. Would it be worth him respeccing to take better advantage of the DST's proc or would it probably not make much of a difference?

 

Kaber

Hastes do not result in more procs. The first set of tests are on the PTR, later in the thread I did testing on live and found hastes were not increasing my proc rates, as did a few others.
Proc Per Minute Mechanics & Haste

So if Rogues are seeing 10%, it is fairly comparable to what Hunter's currently see (spec dependant of course), and a BM will actually be capable of making full use of the DST post-nerf which should remove what little gap there currently is between a BM and combat rogue. So if rogues/hunters are seeing similar gains, then I would agree that it should go to whichever can make the most use of it. I'd hate to see it go to anyone that can't break 700 DPS heading into SSC and TK.

 

Danther

Combat Potency is a flat percent chance for your successful Offhand attacks to generate energy. Therefore, yes, more offhand attacks means more chances to proc Combat Potency, which means more energy.

 

Cos-

Except haste increases procs that are % chance like sword spec and combat potency.

 

Kaber

Ahhh, ok, combat potency certainly benefits a lot from the DST. I see what you meant now.

 

• Aldriana

The Rogue Gear sheet values haste proc items more because it has a more accurate model of how they work, I believe. However, I have no updated that sheet with the new findings regarding haste and procs yet, so the value of those items will be coming down somewhat.

Also, the sheet is not updated to include the forthcoming Dragonspine Trophy nerf, so the value of it will be dropping as well.

Hence: while I do believe that historically the haste items were as good as indicated by that sheet, the values are likely to come down significantly with the incoming changes to the class.

 

The Grog

On live, haste improves PPM procs.

On 2.2 test, haste does not. AND the DST gets an internal CD, I believe. AND haste gets nerfed. In 2.2, DST is still really good but no longer best of slot in BT.

 

Sagerix

Posts like this kill many rogues a little bit inside every time they read them.

At any rate, even with the nerfs the rogue will probably be better served going with swords eventually. I'm assuming he's combat dagger so he's still seeing an increase in Combat Potency thanks to the haste though.

 

Rezarel

The only PPM proc tested in that thread which improved with haste was Fiery Weapon, tested by a rogue. Unbridled Wrath and two trinket procs, tested by a warrior, and [Don Santos' Famous Hunting Rifle], tested by a hunter, did not see increased procs per minute with haste when tested on Live.

So, either there's class dependent stuff going on, or some (old?) enchants see benefits from haste, while other (newer?) enchants and items do not. But there is no evidence showing different behaviors between Live and the PTR.

 

• Latito

3 DST's from 3 kills? DAMN. In my old guild we saw 1 DST in 4 months. In my current guild they saw 2 in 5 months. Considering he drops 2 items out of ~14 every week, getting 3 in 3 weeks is very extraordinary.

Having a DST go to a hunter over a rogue does hurt.. if they two are equally skilled players, your guild will see more benefit from it by putting it in the rogues hands. A crappy rogue vs a very well played hunter, ok.. I can see the merit in giving the hunter DST. Oh, and yea.. dagger spec means he is combat. Unless of course he is Mutilate.. Check his armory, if he's 15/41/5, he's combat daggers.



Just a note on the damage increase for rogues.. a few corrections to the post a little above mine:

30% haste, 50% uptime - average of 15% haste (good starting point)
65% white damage (yep)
5% poisons (yep - but deadly poison should be fully stacked always anyways, haste won't make it tick faster or get higher stacks)
25% Sinister Strike - affected via combat potency
5% rupture - not really affected, unless the rogue struggled to keep rupture up without the haste

*Note* Those numbers can vary a bit, rupture should be in the 7-8% range, upwards of 9% if the rogues doesn't have windfury. White damage will shrink a bit without windfury. Poison dmg will shrink a bit as the rogue's stats increase. (no amount of AP, crit, hit, etc makes your deadlies tick higher).

15% * 65% white = 9.75% increase (this already incorporates more sword procs)
poisons stay the same
rupture stays the same or goes up a hair - count it at no change

15% more combat potency energy:
base is 10 energy per second.
1.5spd OH = 40 attacks per minute
SnD up 100% = 1.15 speed = 52 attacks per minute
DST proc = 0.88 speed = 67.6 attacks per minute
Extra 15 OffHand attacks per minute while hasted. We assumed 50% uptime, thats an extra 7.5 attacks. 20% chance to proc Combat Potency, so an extra 7.5 * 0.2 * 15 = 22.5 extra energy per minute. Thats half a Sinister Strike. Most rogues get about 19-20 SS's per minute otherwise, so a 2.5% increase in sinister strike dmg.
25% of total * 2.5% increase = 0.625% increase

So yea, 10.5% increase in damage for a rogue seems about right to me.


For hunters, as far as I understand it you basically get auto steady auto steady auto steady etc. If you toss in Multi shot or arcane shot, well those are on a fixed CD and won't be affected by haste, so the auto/steady rotation is what will show the biggest increase in dps. Reducing the time your auto takes effectively makes your steadies happen that much more often, assuming your auto doesn't go below the 1.5sec GCD (plus latency). Thus, all of the HUNTER's damage is theoretically affected by the haste, but the pets damage remains pretty much static. What percentage of a hunters damage is caused by their pet? Yes, I realize BM and Marks will have different answers.

That said, even if the hunter gets the same 10% dps increase a rogue gets from DST, proc-based haste really IS a mixed blessing for a hunter. Any time that auto shot dips below 1.5 sec, you lose all benefit of the haste. Not to mention it is a lot harder for a hunter to vary his shot timings to achieve maximum benefit from the haste, as opposed to a rogue who.. really doesn't do anything differently (in general). Meh, even if the hunter and rogue will see the same theoretical percentage increase from DST, and do the same dps pre-DST.. give it to the rogue unless another outside factor (raid attendance, etc) suggest otherwise, just purely based on the fact that a rogue will ALWAYS get max benefit from haste, while a hunter will not.

 

Kaber

Depends on the fight, but generally a BM sees 20-30% (40% with the scorpid bug) from the pet, and a MM seeings around 15-20%. How much benefit a BM sees is dependent on other hastes thrown into the mix, and their weapon's shot time.

Here's the analysis of the DST on hunter builds (first post is T4, 2nd is T6) - just be aware this was done at 0 armor, so rather than picking over the DPS numbers themselves look at the ratios and percentage increase:
[Hunter] Haste Rating analysis for end-game builds

 

tict

Stick with rogues..thats what you know. Don't try and say you know what it does for a hunter. I have gained over 10% damage increase as a BM, would be even more as a MM/SV. The trinket is equally viable for both classes. IT IS NOT BETTER for a rogue. You just calculated a 10% increase. I got more then 10% as a BM. The GC issue is averted by the fact a SV/MM will not get there unless they stack alot of haste. A BM as well (especially post nerf) with a 2.9-3 ish speed bow. You talk about us having to adjust rotations when it procs making it less efficient? A BM hunter only does steady/auto, when it procs i continue to steady/auto...whats to change? I don't change a damn thing when it procs. I get the same benefit a rogue would spamming whatever.

I have posted my before/after WWS logs showing my increase. How about some rogues do the same? So far all I have heard is theorycratfing. Not that I don't think rogues get a good benefit from it, would just be interesting to compare.

Regarding who it is best for I think we are splitting hairs. I hate hearing people cry that this trinket should only be theirs...talk about greedy. It is awesome for alot of classes. Deal with it.

 

• Scheme

As BM, you're already coming very close to clipping your shots when your IAotH and DST procs are active, and practically speaking you probably are, due to latency. Nobody's arguing that hunters don't reap a massive benefit from haste. They're saying that classes with no diminishing or negative returns from stacking haste get more benefit, especially as they stack more and more of it. The only (theoretical) stopping point is when you get to 0.0 speed.

 

Pigz

I thought there is a haste limit on weapons. Something like your weapons cannot swing faster than X% of their normal speed.

 

• Wodin

This was disproved thanks to Hyjal and the Unholy Frenzy buff.

 

tict

The point is whethere i clip or not (and post haste-nerf I won't be) I gained over 10% increase in DPS. In fact I can show you some logs which make me think I gained closer to 15%+ just from the DST. I still haven't seen anything but theorycrafting from rogues and that theorycrafting says about a 10% increase.

I don't care if I only benefited from 50% (post patch I will be benefiting 100% BTW) of the trinkets haste. The bottom line is the % increase in one's DPS. Both classes are looking at double digit % increases with this trinket. Saying one class deserves it more is idiotic.

 

• Karakas

There is none to the best of anyone on this board's knowledge.

 

Cos-

Anetheron is an atypical boss. We can post some Shade of Akama logs where rogues without dst or any t6 quality gear break 2100 dps too. Anetheron is the infamous boss that got everyone screaming about rogues, Furi hit 3k dps on it etc.