Dragonspine Trophy Analysis - Page 17

Scheme · 09/12/07, 8:16 PM

Originally Posted by tict

The point is whethere i clip or not (and post haste-nerf I won't be) I gained over 10% increase in DPS. In fact I can show you some logs which make me think I gained closer to 15%+ just from the DST. I still haven't seen anything but theorycrafting from rogues and that theorycrafting says about a 10% increase.

I don't care if I only benefited from 50% (post patch I will be benefiting 100% BTW) of the trinkets haste. The bottom line is the % increase in one's DPS. Both classes are looking at double digit % increases with this trinket. Saying one class deserves it more is idiotic.

No need to get all hostile about it. It's not about who deserves it more, merely about where it's more effective. Some guilds and people are (or were, rather, considering the haste rating nerf) smart enough to look down the road and see that this trinket + all the other haste rating items and haste self-buffs on rogues would provide a more effective DPS increase than it would on a hunter.

Naturally, in 2.2 this will no longer apply to the extent it does now, but that doesn't change the fact that for the last 7 months, the DST was incontravertibly the most effective (read: the most net DPS increase) in the hands of a good rogue. You can't really argue with the WWS reports of rogues with the trinket doing 1500+ DPS pre-BT, and 1600-3000 DPS with varying degrees of Hyjal/BT gear. I've yet to see a hunter, with or without DST, come close to those numbers without some sort of freakish luck with crit streaks.

Kaber · 09/13/07, 1:41 AM

Originally Posted by Scheme

No need to get all hostile about it. It's not about who deserves it more, merely about where it's more effective. Some guilds and people are (or were, rather, considering the haste rating nerf) smart enough to look down the road and see that this trinket + all the other haste rating items and haste self-buffs on rogues would provide a more effective DPS increase than it would on a hunter.

Naturally, in 2.2 this will no longer apply to the extent it does now, but that doesn't change the fact that for the last 7 months, the DST was incontravertibly the most effective (read: the most net DPS increase) in the hands of a good rogue. You can't really argue with the WWS reports of rogues with the trinket doing 1500+ DPS pre-BT, and 1600-3000 DPS with varying degrees of Hyjal/BT gear. I've yet to see a hunter, with or without DST, come close to those numbers without some sort of freakish luck with crit streaks.

If a hunter is already able to maximize his DPS, argueing that: "the hunter doesn't deserve it because shot rotations are tough," is attributing a mechanic our hunter friend has already overcome as the reason for being held back. That really does not make any sense to me. Any hunter breaking 1k DPS knows their rotation, they are capable of timing their shots, they have the tools to make themselves successful. They are already capable of getting everything out of their class that they can. To tell a hunter that he cannot have the DST because you do not believe he can make full use of it, when that hunter has already proven himself, strikes me as fairly ignorant.

What hunters are saying is that this belief currently held about us not making full use of the DST while other classes can, is just plain false. A rogue can, at best, use 65% of the DST. A Hunter can at best use about 85% of the DST (and then some, given that more shots = more crits = more procs from Kill Command and Go for the Throat, among other things). If an item is just as powerful for Hunters as it is for Rogues, why would you keep Hunters from getting it, unless it was about greed under the guise of fair play?

If you claim the DST does more in the hands of a rogue than a hunter, you had better believe that we are going to ask tough questions. I do not see how requesting proof about something that is currently being withheld from a class by numerous guilds is too much to ask. You say it is better in a rogue's hands, I'm still waiting for evidence that it is actually true.

Scheme · 09/13/07, 2:25 AM

Originally Posted by Kaber

If a hunter is already able to maximize his DPS, argueing that: "the hunter doesn't deserve it because shot rotations are tough," is attributing a mechanic our hunter friend has already overcome as the reason for being held back. That really does not make any sense to me. Any hunter breaking 1k DPS knows their rotation, they are capable of timing their shots, they have the tools to make themselves successful. They are already capable of getting everything out of their class that they can. To tell a hunter that he cannot have the DST because you do not believe he can make full use of it, when that hunter has already proven himself, strikes me as fairly ignorant.

What hunters are saying is that this belief currently held about us not making full use of the DST while other classes can, is just plain false. A rogue can, at best, use 65% of the DST. A Hunter can at best use about 85% of the DST (and then some, given that more shots = more crits = more procs from Kill Command and Go for the Throat, among other things). If an item is just as powerful for Hunters as it is for Rogues, why would you keep Hunters from getting it, unless it was about greed under the guise of fair play?

If you claim the DST does more in the hands of a rogue than a hunter, you had better believe that we are going to ask tough questions. I do not see how requesting proof about something that is currently being withheld from a class by numerous guilds is too much to ask. You say it is better in a rogue's hands, I'm still waiting for evidence that it is actually true.

You fail at reading comprehension. I didn't say hunters couldn't make full use of the DST, or that they didn't get a massive benefit from it. I did say that haste rating is nowhere near as valuable to a hunter as it is to a rogue. Hunters can only stack so much of it before they start getting negative returns. This won't happen with just a DST, true, but with IAotH, QS, and the 20% BM haste, not to mention any other haste rating items, it will. Rogues don't have this problem. I can stack DST, Slice n Dice, Blade Flurry, Bloodlust, Abacus, etc ad nauseum and I can only benefit. The only cutoff point is 0 speed.

You're underestimating the usage a rogue gets out of just the DST, as well. You say 65% because that's the normal percentage of a rogue's total output that is white damage. You neglect to mention that if the DST only buffed white damage output, that white:yellow damage ratio would be much, much higher. Combat rogues have this awesome talent called Combat Potency. Maybe you've heard of it. 20% chance on any offhand hit to regenerate 15 energy. More haste = more offhand hits = more energy = more yellow damage. Pretty neat how that works, right?

Maybe you've also heard of weapon procs. I don't know, it's not something hunters have to worry about. Lucky fellows! Mongoose procs 120 agility, which is, wait for it, 120 attack power and 3% crit. Per proc; it can also stack. When it stacks we have a whopping extra 240 attack power and 6% crit. Guess how it procs. That's right, off weapon swings. What does haste buff for a rogue, again? Oh yeah.

Anyway. It's great for hunters. It's great for rogues. I already have one, and so does every raiding rogue in my guild, so it's not like I'm arguing about this because I'm jealous of those bastard hunters stealing my DST. It's just irritating (and actually somewhat amusing, because it's basically just a few hunters bitching; everyone else has a brain) seeing post after post of people saying crap like "zomg i dont' believe dst is better for a rogue than a hunter because hunters can use it too and anyway i do 5 million dps with it and the rogue in my guild who's specced shadowstep and has it too only does 20 dps so obviously ist better for hunters so there and if you want to prove me worng don't just shove math in my face because i'm too fucking stupid to understand it, i want you to go back thru every combatlog you've ever saved and compare and contrast your damage now with vs your damage then and all your hunters damage too because i'm just too goddamn lazy to bother listening to people with a fucking clue."

And stuff.

tict · 09/13/07, 2:33 AM

Originally Posted by Scheme

You can't really argue with the WWS reports of rogues with the trinket doing 1500+ DPS pre-BT, and 1600-3000 DPS with varying degrees of Hyjal/BT gear. I've yet to see a hunter, with or without DST, come close to those numbers without some sort of freakish luck with crit streaks.

Wow Web Stats

read it and weep. this hunter is in T5 with the trinket doing 2085 dps. I can find more if you want. Hunters can dps with the trinket with the best of them. I would like to see how many T5 DST rogues hit much better then that.

The math involved and proof through WWS shows this trinket gives hunters as much as a 10-15% dps increase. Just as viable as any rogue got pre nerf even.

Just cause some guilds have allocated this trinket to rogues only doesn't make them right. Far from it actually.

Scheme · 09/13/07, 2:34 AM

Error
The report #4e65ndupj3fwa has been deleted by its owner.

Nice.

tict · 09/13/07, 2:43 AM

Updated above smart guy. It is actually 2091 DPS:
Wow Web Stats

Here is the hunter in question BTW:
The Armory

T5 and the DST.

koaschten · 09/13/07, 2:46 AM

Originally Posted by Wodin

This was disproved thanks to Hyjal and the Unholy Frenzy buff.

Just to point out, screenshot without bloodlust.

zYx · 09/13/07, 6:34 AM

@ koaschten: Sorry for Off Topic but can you tell me the name of addon which displays dps, crit %, weapon speeds above your character. Search did not help... Thank you in advance and sorry once again.

Kaber · 09/13/07, 6:55 AM

Originally Posted by Scheme

You fail at reading comprehension. I didn't say hunters couldn't make full use of the DST, or that they didn't get a massive benefit from it. I did say that haste rating is nowhere near as valuable to a hunter as it is to a rogue. Hunters can only stack so much of it before they start getting negative returns. This won't happen with just a DST, true, but with IAotH, QS, and the 20% BM haste, not to mention any other haste rating items, it will. Rogues don't have this problem. I can stack DST, Slice n Dice, Blade Flurry, Bloodlust, Abacus, etc ad nauseum and I can only benefit. The only cutoff point is 0 speed.

You're underestimating the usage a rogue gets out of just the DST, as well. You say 65% because that's the normal percentage of a rogue's total output that is white damage. You neglect to mention that if the DST only buffed white damage output, that white:yellow damage ratio would be much, much higher. Combat rogues have this awesome talent called Combat Potency. Maybe you've heard of it. 20% chance on any offhand hit to regenerate 15 energy. More haste = more offhand hits = more energy = more yellow damage. Pretty neat how that works, right?

Maybe you've also heard of weapon procs. I don't know, it's not something hunters have to worry about. Lucky fellows! Mongoose procs 120 agility, which is, wait for it, 120 attack power and 3% crit. Per proc; it can also stack. When it stacks we have a whopping extra 240 attack power and 6% crit. Guess how it procs. That's right, off weapon swings. What does haste buff for a rogue, again? Oh yeah.

Anyway. It's great for hunters. It's great for rogues. I already have one, and so does every raiding rogue in my guild, so it's not like I'm arguing about this because I'm jealous of those bastard hunters stealing my DST. It's just irritating (and actually somewhat amusing, because it's basically just a few hunters bitching; everyone else has a brain) seeing post after post of people saying crap like "zomg i dont' believe dst is better for a rogue than a hunter because hunters can use it too and anyway i do 5 million dps with it and the rogue in my guild who's specced shadowstep and has it too only does 20 dps so obviously ist better for hunters so there and if you want to prove me worng don't just shove math in my face because i'm too fucking stupid to understand it, i want you to go back thru every combatlog you've ever saved and compare and contrast your damage now with vs your damage then and all your hunters damage too because i'm just too goddamn lazy to bother listening to people with a fucking clue."

And stuff.

There is no need for you to get defensive and start throwing out insults. You still have not shown that a rogue gains a larger amount of pure DPS from the DST than a hunter. We currently have theory-craft on the potential percentage gains from both hunters and rogues. The max potential damage a Hunter can see is 15%, while the max potential damage a rogue can see based on all this math I aparently do not understand, is 10.5%. And we have WWS of a BM Hunter, who has the least to gain from the DST of all Hunter builds, increasing by 10-12% in DPS from 900 to over 1000. What we do not have is a WWS of a rogue doing the same as Tict.

As for a hunter not doing 1500+ pre-T6, this is Cheeky in mostly T4: WWS.

Oh, and about Weapon Procs increasing with hastes. Maybe you haven't been paying attention to this thread since I have already had to mention this at least 3 times, but hastes do not increase proc rates: Proc Per Minute Mechanics & Haste. The only exception is Combat Potency. Though having both Kill Command and Go for the Throat doing the same for hunters would appear to even things out.

"I did say that haste rating is nowhere near as valuable to a hunter as it is to a rogue" is about where I stopped reading your post and just started skimming. You fail at understanding hunter mechanics if you actually believe this. Not to mention you have nothing to back it. You keep referring to the Global Cooldown as the one and only reason for a hunter not getting as much out of haste. You simply do not have a grasp on hunter mechanics and gear selections if you think this is true.

What you fail to realize is that a hunter operating under haste sees a dramatic increase in total DPS. Much more than if he were to stack crit, agility, or even hit. Your point about Rogues gaining more from haste has absolutely no basis and no backing aside from a string of poorly reasoned references to game mechanics that you do not understand.

The Global Cooldown is a valid point *if* the hunter stayed BM at the T6 level with a DST in the mix. If you actually took the time to analyze what happens to Hunter DPS with haste, you might realize that with a DST and enough haste, the Hunter raid spec switches from BM to MM and their total DPS increases substantially. MM is already a higher DPS spec (18/43/0) than BM - the reason it is not a raid spec is because it is terribly mana inefficient. A MM runs out of mana long before BM, and as a result has to choke back their DPS, use Aspect of the Viper, down-rank shots, and to top it off their shot rotation is horrible. The DST and haste creates a condition where a MM can switch from the standard 1:1.5 shot rotation to a 1:1 mana efficient (and more forgiving) rotation, maintaining higher over-all DPS than BM. Haste has a double effect for MM: mana efficiency, and the ability to switch to a higher DPS build. It is impossible with any set of haste gear currently in the game to get down to the Global Cooldown as MM, so there is no point where a MM has to stop stacking haste.

To get all this information, all you had to do was read the thread I linked earlier analyzing the effects of Haste on Hunter builds. Not to mention everything else you attempted to cite as evidence has already been hashed out over the course of this thread.

Before you post try reading the last few pages. You bring nothing new to the debate aside from flame-baiting.

Mazz · 09/13/07, 9:33 AM

Oh, and about Weapon Procs increasing with hastes. Maybe you haven't been paying attention to this thread since I have already had to mention this at least 3 times, but hastes do not increase proc rates: Proc Per Minute Mechanics & Haste. The only exception is Combat Potency. Though having both Kill Command and Go for the Throat doing the same for hunters would appear to even things out.

Minor nitpicking: Combat potency is not ppm, but a solid % hit proc. So are poisons, sword spec and (If I remember correctly) windfury. These are all affected by haste.

Danther · 09/13/07, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Mazz

Minor nitpicking: Combat potency is not ppm, but a solid % hit proc. So are poisons, sword spec and (If I remember correctly) windfury. These are all affected by haste.

To be fair, the part he was responding to was directly related to more Mongoose procs.

p o j · 09/13/07, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Danther

To be fair, the part he was responding to was directly related to more Mongoose procs.

Regardless, they are procs- and they were formerly not listed. Bringing WF into this discussion changes things entirely. There is no cooldown on WF totem, and is a straight 20% proc.

Edit: spelling error

Cheeky · 09/13/07, 1:14 PM

Originally Posted by Scheme

This won't happen with just a DST, true, but with IAotH, QS, and the 20% BM haste, not to mention any other haste rating items, it will.

Minor nitpick - IAotH and QS are the same thing. Listing them separately is either ignorance in Hunter abilities or trying to be sly about making your argument seem stronger than it might be.

Scheme · 09/13/07, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Danther

To be fair, the part he was responding to was directly related to more Mongoose procs.

PPM effects are indirectly buffed by haste for rogues; Combat Potency energy regen means more instant attacks.

Grogzor · 09/13/07, 1:36 PM

This is quickly becoming a Phallus Assessment Competition.

Unless you can actually quantify the benefits you gain from Haste to all these subsequent and indirect benefits or prove in some way that your extra procs from the extra procs from the extra procs actually make a noticeable difference, accept the fact that it is good for Hunters and Rogues and Fury Warriors and Enhancement Shaman and Retribution Paladins and Feral Druids or whatever.

Nothing is being gained by this discussion other then the deterioration of these Damn Fine Boards.

CouldCareLess · 09/13/07, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by Grogzor

This is quickly becoming a Phallus Assessment Competition.

Unless you can actually quantify the benefits you gain from Haste to all these subsequent and indirect benefits or prove in some way that your extra procs from the extra procs from the extra procs actually make a noticeable difference, accept the fact that it is good for Hunters and Rogues and Fury Warriors and Enhancement Shaman and Retribution Paladins and Feral Druids or whatever.

Nothing is being gained by this discussion other then the deterioration of these Damn Fine Boards.

I'd be damned if it wasn't mildly amusing though.

Scheme · 09/13/07, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by Grogzor

This is quickly becoming a Phallus Assessment Competition.

Unless you can actually quantify the benefits you gain from Haste to all these subsequent and indirect benefits or prove in some way that your extra procs from the extra procs from the extra procs actually make a noticeable difference, accept the fact that it is good for Hunters and Rogues and Fury Warriors and Enhancement Shaman and Retribution Paladins and Feral Druids or whatever.

Nothing is being gained by this discussion other then the deterioration of these Damn Fine Boards.

I already said it was great, awesome, super-duper for hunters. You all missed that, I guess.

Grogzor · 09/13/07, 1:49 PM

It was seen Scheme but my post was also directed at the others.

• Latito · 09/13/07, 1:52 PM

Any hunter capable of breaking 1500-2k dps is both a rarity and deserving of the DST. As long as they aren't getting into GCD issues, a skilled hunter can make good use of the trinket. The parses you've provided show some skilled hunters, but you probably know that isn't the norm. There are crappy rogues out there, but probably more crappy hunters. In general, rogues do more dps than a hunter. IN GENERAL. If your guild's hunters are in the minority - they do solid dps - then sure, DST is worth investing in the hunter.

If you want to see parses of rogues doing high dps, just look for pretty much any parse of early BT/Hijal bosses to find rogues in non-hijal/BT gear pulling crazy numbers. You'll probably find something in the first 3-4 parses you look at.

I think the two biggest points that rogues are citing here are as follows:
-Rogues will NEVER see a cap in dps increase due to haste, hunters will
-In general, rogues do more dps than hunters

I agree with most hunters here that reaching the point where haste is no longer a benefit for a hunter is rare and hard to get. Toss in a Bloodlust/Heroism though and you might find it a bit easier to hit that GCD problem.
I acknowledge that the hunters in those parses are putting down excellent dps numbers and that they are the exception to the generalization that rogues do more dps than hunters.

tict · 09/13/07, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by Latito

Any hunter capable of breaking 1500-2k dps is both a rarity and deserving of the DST. As long as they aren't getting into GCD issues, a skilled hunter can make good use of the trinket. The parses you've provided show some skilled hunters, but you probably know that isn't the norm. There are crappy rogues out there, but probably more crappy hunters. In general, rogues do more dps than a hunter. IN GENERAL. If your guild's hunters are in the minority - they do solid dps - then sure, DST is worth investing in the hunter.

If you want to see parses of rogues doing high dps, just look for pretty much any parse of early BT/Hijal bosses to find rogues in non-hijal/BT gear pulling crazy numbers. You'll probably find something in the first 3-4 parses you look at.

I think the two biggest points that rogues are citing here are as follows:
-Rogues will NEVER see a cap in dps increase due to haste, hunters will
-In general, rogues do more dps than hunters

I agree with most hunters here that reaching the point where haste is no longer a benefit for a hunter is rare and hard to get. Toss in a Bloodlust/Heroism though and you might find it a bit easier to hit that GCD problem.
I acknowledge that the hunters in those parses are putting down excellent dps numbers and that they are the exception to the generalization that rogues do more dps than hunters.

This is a guild by guild decision. Saying "in general" doesn't quite agree with that. I believe several here have said give it the person that a.)is a good DPSer and b.)has the DKP for the item. That is all we have been saying. Limiting by class is just short-sighted. Saying "rogues do more dps then hunters in general" does nothing for the converstaion. I can show u tons of logs with BM hunters smoking rogues. I am sure there are tons of logs of rogues owning BM hunters. Thats not the point. Unless you ran some formal poll and have some numbers I am unaware of "in general" both classes can beat eachother. Both classes do great DPS. I also don't think there are as many crappy hunters out there as you guys think. Maybe just on your server *shrug*.

Kaber · 09/13/07, 5:21 PM

Originally Posted by p o j

Regardless, they are procs- and they were formerly not listed. Bringing WF into this discussion changes things entirely. There is no cooldown on WF totem, and is a straight 20% proc.

Edit: spelling error

Did you guys even read what I wrote? In the quote you are discussing I specifically said, clear as day, that Combat Potency is the only exception. We discussed this a page or two ago. For hunters both Kill Command and Go for the Throat function in a similar way as combat potency for rogues. And yes, basic procs like mongoose were listed as evidence.

• Latito · 09/13/07, 5:25 PM

Some Teron kills (very tank n' spank):
Wow Web Stats
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Those are (in order) the 1st, 3rd, 6th and 7th highest dps Teron kills.

More Teron (more "average" dps'ing guilds):
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Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats (my guild.. note the rogues didn't have enhancement shaman or feral druid, hunter had spriest)

Bloodboil:
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
The 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 6th highest dps kills (Yes, some feature rogues with [multiple] Fel Rages, ignore them if you want)
Yes, hunters will (likely) have to move in/out to soak bloodboils, rogues have to move away from fel acid and spread out much earlier to avoid cleaves when he runs to the Fel Raged person.

Basically, just click on any fight and you got a pretty high chance of seeing a rogue at the top. The occasional one shows hunters ahead of rogues, but by-and-large you see rogues ahead.

Oh, and then theres Supremus.. a fight which is HEAVILY anti-melee. Yet I can find parses with rogues toping the meters:
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Sure the first one features a not-so-ordinary rogue.. but the second one?
Wow Web Stats
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Levidian · 09/13/07, 5:27 PM

Originally Posted by tict

Updated above smart guy. It is actually 2091 DPS:
Wow Web Stats

Here is the hunter in question BTW:
The Armory

T5 and the DST.

Yea, that link has probably floated around a lot lately. I'm very proud of those numbers.
Did that with 1 piece of T6 gear HoD instead of Legacy, I wasn't using my timeless arrows either.
That is one of the highest dps hunter logs on Teron in the game I believe, and I will add it was an exceptionally perfect fight as far as luck goes. Quick shots and DST were rotating perfectly I kept haste up for most of the fight, but yes it does show the extreme power of the DST which is the reason it was linked in this thread.

Natural · 09/13/07, 5:46 PM

Our guild made the somewhat controversial decision to give Hunters a fair shot at the DSTs. The first 6 ended up going to hunter/rogue/hunter/rogue/rogue/fury warrior.

Our hunters do great DPS, have 100% attendance, and have been in the guild for two years so it was not reasonable for us to theorycraft them out of contention. We recognized the arguments that the DST likely mathematically benefits the raid more on a rogue, but pragmatically the percentage difference bonus between the rogue and a hunter was not great enough for us to go down this path of drama.

Example log of a recent Teron kill with our hunters, rogues, and myself all using DST:
Wow Web Stats
Edit: I believe the hunters did even better this week with concentration aura, I'll update this post when the WWS is up. WWS: Wow Web Stats 100-150 DPS improvement with conc aura, 1900 BM hunter

Do the rogues win the meters? Yes. Are the hunters dead weight? Far from it. In the end you have to ask yourself whether pissing off your hunters is worth the marginally better raid DPS.

Cheeky · 09/13/07, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by Latito

Some Teron kills (very tank n' spank):
Wow Web Stats

This is pretty ridiculous to use as proof. Looking at this first log, all 3 Rogues have the DST and none of the Hunters do. And each one of those Hunters used a sub-optimal rotation or DPS spec (Retro is Survival). You've only proved that Rogues with a DST out-DPS Hunters without one. I don't think that's news to anyone.

I have not looked through the rest of the logs provided, so there may be better evidence in there to support your claims.

My opinion is that a good player gets more out of this trinket than a bad player. Rogue/Hunter toon not withstanding. This pissing contest that has erupted between the Hunters and Rogues is pointless, and belongs more here and here.

Each guild is going to have to decide for itself how to deal with this trinket. As far as I know, my model for the DST is the only one out there for Hunters right now, and it makes it incredible for us. I'm sure it is incredible for Rogues as well, the logs listed clearly show impressive DPS numbers. But generalizing it for one class over the other is a waste of time, and people are starting to get a bit too emotional about it.