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Old 08/19/07, 10:46 PM   #241
Morelis
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by shed View Post
Anyways, I agree that mele haste needed some nerf as they get ready to add higher ilvl items and will likely keep adding haste (higher values) not only in Sunwell but in the next expansion with lvl 80 gear.
If the dps contribution of a point of haste rating is comparable to the dps contribution of a point of any other relevant stat how can the nerf be justified? I can only speak for my class but haste rating was definitely not overpowered, it was right in line with other stats, all this change will do is make the items that have passive haste borderline useless. Can rogues, hunters and warriors comment if their theorycrafting showed haste to be way out of line in value?

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Old 08/20/07, 6:43 AM   #242
suicuique
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Antonidas (EU)
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
Can rogues, hunters and warriors comment if their theorycrafting showed haste to be way out of line in value?
It's the same for warriors. The items with passive haste rating on them sacrifice a LOT of stats. As such they were barely (if at all) better than comparable items without passive haste on such slots.

Take e.g. [Grips of Silent Justice] and [Pillager's Gauntlets]. Both BT drops. Both ilvl 141 The former was already considered to be superior or at least on par to the later. That was pre nerf.
Now they're not in the same league. I'm wild guessing here, but even [Gauntlets of Martial Perfection] from Gruul are not a clear downgrade from [Pillager's Gauntlets] anymore.

I have all three gauntlets, but my play time as DPS warrior is very limited, so correct me if I am wrong.

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Old 08/20/07, 9:37 AM   #243
♦ Praetorian
Mike Tyson
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
In general, almost any socketed item beats a comparable unsocketed item if you're min/max'ing for DPS potential or healing longevity or whatever.

As a rule, items with haste on them had no sockets. The fact that the socketless +haste items were superior to their socketed alternatives is just evidence that melee haste was too good, in my view. If some of the haste items you now say are inferior had sockets instead of some of their other stats, you wouldn't see them as inferior.

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Old 08/20/07, 9:48 AM   #244
Cesar2000
Don Flamenco
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight (EU)
Yes... 15.8 hit rating gives 1% hit, 15.7 haste rating gives 1% haste. Both will increase white dps by 1% (unless im forgetting something here)... so it seems perfectly fine like it is. The only problem is Blizzard are still not very good at itemizing.

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Old 08/20/07, 9:57 AM   #245
Zerix
Von Kaiser
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
Item breakdown for rogues:

[Insidious Bands] > [Swiftstrike Bracers]
[Slayer's Shoulderpads] > [Swiftstrike Shoulders] -- This was the only questionable item upgrade of all the haste items, but you need slayer's shoulderpads for 4 piece since the Illidan helm is a clear winner for the off-set piece.
[Don Alejandro's Money Belt] > [Shadow-walker's Cord] -- This was the only haste item I currently wear and considered it to be the best piece for the belt slot. However now after the nerf its pretty much completely useless.
[Band of the Ranger-General][Stormrage Signet Ring] > [Band of Devastation]

I really don't get where people claim "stacking" haste right now is out of control. The only thing out of control is dragonspine. I mean if you think using SnD, BF, Drums of Battle, Bloodlust, and a Haste potion is out of control then I guess more power to you. Does Blizzard think we won't use every tool at our disposal to do more damage? Thats what rogues are designed to do, help you kill bosses faster doing whatever we can to get the job done.

Like I said before, nerf dragonspine now, keep melee haste where its at, and buff caster haste rating.

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Old 08/20/07, 10:10 AM   #246
 Shifft
The man is a stock car legend.
 
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Shifft
Draenei Shaman
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Zerix View Post
Item breakdown for rogues:

[Insidious Bands] > [Swiftstrike Bracers]
[Slayer's Shoulderpads] > [Swiftstrike Shoulders] -- This was the only questionable item upgrade of all the haste items, but you need slayer's shoulderpads for 4 piece since the Illidan helm is a clear winner for the off-set piece.
[Don Alejandro's Money Belt] > [Shadow-walker's Cord] -- This was the only haste item I currently wear and considered it to be the best piece for the belt slot. However now after the nerf its pretty much completely useless.
[Band of the Ranger-General][Stormrage Signet Ring] > [Band of Devastation]

I really don't get where people claim "stacking" haste right now is out of control. The only thing out of control is dragonspine. I mean if you think using SnD, BF, Drums of Battle, Bloodlust, and a Haste potion is out of control then I guess more power to you. Does Blizzard think we won't use every tool at our disposal to do more damage? Thats what rogues are designed to do, help you kill bosses faster doing whatever we can to get the job done.

Like I said before, nerf dragonspine now, keep melee haste where its at, and buff caster haste rating.
On a side note, [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is still > [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] making Vashj loot the best item for that slot.

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Old 08/20/07, 10:25 AM   #247
Hozz
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Suramar
Originally Posted by Zerix View Post
Item breakdown for rogues:

[Insidious Bands] > [Swiftstrike Bracers]
[Slayer's Shoulderpads] > [Swiftstrike Shoulders] -- This was the only questionable item upgrade of all the haste items, but you need slayer's shoulderpads for 4 piece since the Illidan helm is a clear winner for the off-set piece.
[Don Alejandro's Money Belt] > [Shadow-walker's Cord] -- This was the only haste item I currently wear and considered it to be the best piece for the belt slot. However now after the nerf its pretty much completely useless.
[Band of the Ranger-General][Stormrage Signet Ring] > [Band of Devastation]

I really don't get where people claim "stacking" haste right now is out of control. The only thing out of control is dragonspine. I mean if you think using SnD, BF, Drums of Battle, Bloodlust, and a Haste potion is out of control then I guess more power to you. Does Blizzard think we won't use every tool at our disposal to do more damage? Thats what rogues are designed to do, help you kill bosses faster doing whatever we can to get the job done.

Like I said before, nerf dragonspine now, keep melee haste where its at, and buff caster haste rating.
I believe a similar conclusion can be drawn for the plate items with Haste on them, from a DPS Warrior perspective.

I would agree that the issue is really that of certain haste procs being overpowered. The DST and Warglaive for sure, perhaps the Drakefist line of maces.

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Old 08/20/07, 10:31 AM   #248
• Wodin
Thoroughly Inebriated
 
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Troll Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
[Ring of Deceitful Intent] is better than [Band of the Ranger-General] too(thanks to Kings/UR). It's pretty much nitpicking, though, as they're 2nd and 3rd in the progression of desirability regardless.

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Old 08/20/07, 10:40 AM   #249
sp00n
Bald Bull
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Wrathbringer (EU)
Originally Posted by Shifft View Post
On a side note, [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is still > [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] making Vashj loot the best item for that slot.
I wonder, why does everybody say that [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is the best belt out there? Remember, the effects of weapon skill haven't been fully discovered yet, and if you're referring to the DPS spreadsheets (both) you have to take into account that neither of them are utilizing a correct theory at the moment. They're only guessing how useful it is (those 25 skill rating would give 0.6% hit and an unknown amount of crit to current knowledge).

Stopped Playing

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Old 08/20/07, 10:40 AM   #250
suicuique
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Antonidas (EU)
in reference to the plate gauntlets:

Originally Posted by Praetorian View Post
The fact that the socketless +haste items were superior to their socketed alternatives is just evidence that melee haste was too good, in my view.
But this was not a given fact at all. ^^

IIRC the ruling was out there which of the plate DPS gauntlets were the better one. I e.g. used [Grips of Silent Justice] and had [Pillager's Gauntlets] sitting in the bank (for the few occasions I tend to do damage). Could have been the wrong decision though ... in any way the difference was very miniscule. Now, it's not.

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Old 08/20/07, 10:48 AM   #251
 Shifft
The man is a stock car legend.
 
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Shifft
Draenei Shaman
 
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Originally Posted by sp00n View Post
I wonder, why does everybody say that [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is the best belt out there? Remember, the effects of weapon skill haven't been fully discovered yet, and if you're referring to the DPS spreadsheets (both) you have to take into account that neither of them are utilizing a correct theory at the moment. They're only guessing how useful it is (those 25 skill rating would give 0.6% hit and an unknown amount of crit to current knowledge).
I've always just thought it was better because you're trading 2AP/19 crit for 25 weapon skill, and since weapon skill is itemized for the same value as crit/hit/2xAP it's just plain more stats. I don't count the stam of course because frankly I have enough HP as-is to live through anything. It also helps that the spreadsheets are supporting my claims, but that's hardly all I've gone by.

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Old 08/20/07, 11:16 AM   #252
HaklePrime
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Turalyon
Originally Posted by Shifft View Post
I've always just thought it was better because you're trading 2AP/19 crit for 25 weapon skill, and since weapon skill is itemized for the same value as crit/hit/2xAP it's just plain more stats. I don't count the stam of course because frankly I have enough HP as-is to live through anything. It also helps that the spreadsheets are supporting my claims, but that's hardly all I've gone by.
Additionally, a lot of DPS spreadsheets assume you're hit-capped. While not a huge deal, when hit-capped, weapon skill negates the mob's last way to foil you hitting them, dodge. This gives it a slightly higher value than some items with hit rating on them, because those items, assuming the spreadsheet thinks you're hit-capped, provide less overall benefit.

That's how I understand it at any rate.

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Old 08/20/07, 11:28 AM   #253
 Shifft
The man is a stock car legend.
 
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Shifft
Draenei Shaman
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by HaklePrime View Post
Additionally, a lot of DPS spreadsheets assume you're hit-capped. While not a huge deal, when hit-capped, weapon skill negates the mob's last way to foil you hitting them, dodge. This gives it a slightly higher value than some items with hit rating on them, because those items, assuming the spreadsheet thinks you're hit-capped, provide less overall benefit.

That's how I understand it at any rate.
Well you wouldn't wear that belt if hit-capped anyways since weapon skill does increase your hit% as well as reducing dodge.

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Old 08/20/07, 11:40 AM   #254
sp00n
Bald Bull
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Wrathbringer (EU)
Well, when you're in T5+ gear, you most likely aren't hit capped anymore, as at least T5 prefers crit instead of hit.

As to weapon skill and dodge, this value is as well unknown so far.

Stopped Playing

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Old 08/20/07, 11:46 AM   #255
HaklePrime
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Turalyon
Originally Posted by sp00n View Post
Well, when you're in T5+ gear, you most likely aren't hit capped anymore, as at least T5 prefers crit instead of hit.

As to weapon skill and dodge, this value is as well unknown so far.
That isn't true at all. We're well aware of Weapon Skill's affects on creature dodge.

The only way that the link is incorrect is if mobs have dynamic combat statistics. While there is evidence to suggest that some mobs, of odd levels, appear to have adjusted crit/hit/dodge rates, it hasn't been proven, so it's generally best to stick with what has been proven, several times.

Edit: Gah, stupid cached webpages. I just saw the contradictory quote that Crezax posted. However, this still is evidence that it does indeed affect the mob's chance to dodge.

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