Did you guys even read what I wrote? In the quote you are discussing I specifically said, clear as day, that Combat Potency is the only exception.
Well, if that's what you said, you're wrong. Combat Potency, rogue poisons, sword specialisation and Windfury totem all benefit from haste. You can also add any on-crit procs to that such as Hourglass of the Unraveller.
Things a rogue might use that are ppm-based are: Dragonspine Totem, Thundering Skyfire Diamond, Mongoose Enchant, Romulo's Poison Vial.
I have no particular view one way on the other on which class benefits most from DST, however you don't help your cause by being wrong about proc effects. Haste significantly benefits the vast majority of procs that matter to a rogue.
Edit: removed reference to Seal Fate - stupid brainfart
Well, if that's what you said, you're wrong. Combat Potency, rogue poisons, sword specialisation and Windfury totem all benefit from haste. You can also add any on-crit procs to that such as Hourglass of the Unraveller, or Seal Fate in a Mutilate build.
Things a rogue might use that are ppm-based are: Dragonspine Totem, Thundering Skyfire Diamond, Mongoose Enchant, Romulo's Poison Vial.
I have no particular view one way on the other on which class benefits most from DST, however you don't help your cause by being wrong about proc effects. Haste significantly benefits the vast majority of procs that matter to a rogue.
Sorry man, Seal fate is only on special attacks.. and as mutilate you won't even get extra of those since you don't have combat potency.
About the WWS parses.. I just clicked on some random ones. Did you use armory to check that the rogues had DST or haste proc counts in the log? (remember, abacus and potions also proc 'haste'). Also, add a generous 15% dps to each of those hunters - they still don't beat the rogues. My point was merely that instead of few, rare and exceptional parses where hunters do incredible dps (a lot of skill mixed with some luck).. rogues doing well is more the "common" pattern.
As has been mentioned already, rogues and hunters both benefit tremendously from this trinket. I'm still of the opinion that the raid will see a greater boost giving it to a rogue over a hunter, but that assumes your average hunter and average rogue. There are certainly some hunters who shine above the rogues in their guild.. congrats to them, those guilds could likely be better of having the DST in the hands of the hunter.
Sorry man, Seal fate is only on special attacks.. and as mutilate you won't even get extra of those since you don't have combat potency.
About the WWS parses.. I just clicked on some random ones. Did you use armory to check that the rogues had DST or haste proc counts in the log? (remember, abacus and potions also proc 'haste'). Also, add a generous 15% dps to each of those hunters - they still don't beat the rogues. My point was merely that instead of few, rare and exceptional parses where hunters do incredible dps (a lot of skill mixed with some luck).. rogues doing well is more the "common" pattern.
As has been mentioned already, rogues and hunters both benefit tremendously from this trinket. I'm still of the opinion that the raid will see a greater boost giving it to a rogue over a hunter, but that assumes your average hunter and average rogue. There are certainly some hunters who shine above the rogues in their guild.. congrats to them, those guilds could likely be better of having the DST in the hands of the hunter.
Is this argument done yet?
The whole fact of the matter is you can find logs suporting both sides winning. I stated that on my last post. Grats you found some logs. The whole point is that this trinket should be available to any good player. Not limited to just one class.
Cheeky is right on. This thread needs to get back on track.
I think our hunters were still using snake trap in the WWS parses you linked. We don't do that anymore. Here's a link to a Teron kill in which they didn't have to waste time dropping that trap: WWS
Crat upgraded a bunch of gear since that parse, including his bow, by the way. I seem to remember an EJ parse with hunters breaking 2k dps as well.
Also, yeah, all of our rogues have DST and none of our hunters do, so you can't really use our parses to prove that DST is better for rogues. These days I think DST is probably slightly better for a rogue than it is for a hunter, but there are factors which are much more important when awarding loot anyway, unless your loot system is terrible(very possible!)
Anetheron is an atypical boss. We can post some Shade of Akama logs where rogues without dst or any t6 quality gear break 2100 dps too. Anetheron is the infamous boss that got everyone screaming about rogues, Furi hit 3k dps on it etc.
Err don't see how u can even put Akama and Anetheron in the same category, you want 2100dps Akama wws ?
Well, if that's what you said, you're wrong. Combat Potency, rogue poisons, sword specialisation and Windfury totem all benefit from haste. You can also add any on-crit procs to that such as Hourglass of the Unraveller.
His quote essentially said this (paraphrased): "Combat potency and Mongoose increase in proc rate with hastes."
My response
about Weapon Procs increasing with hastes
Please note that the above sentence refers specifically to what I am talking about.
hastes do not increase proc rates: Proc Per Minute Mechanics & Haste. The only exception is Combat Potency.
Now note that my statements reference precisely what he was talking about, and nothing more. I did not make any blanket statements like you claim. You guys just keep on adding things to the argument that were not actually there, and it's getting to the point where this whole thing just looks silly.
I fail to see how this digression and nitpicking is adding anything to the thread.
His quote essentially said this (paraphrased): "Combat potency and Mongoose increase in proc rate with hastes."
My response
Please note that the above sentence refers specifically to what I am talking about.
Now note that my statements reference precisely what he was talking about, and nothing more. I did not make any blanket statements like you claim. You guys just keep on adding things to the argument that were not actually there, and it's getting to the point where this whole thing just looks silly.
I fail to see how this digression and nitpicking is adding anything to the thread.
Ups. You meant to only comment on those the person above you listed? My apologies, I assumed you were making a more general statement. Given that, my post was only meant as a footnote containing a minor correction. Anyway, my bad.
does anyone have an exact recording how long the uptime of the dragonspine is now with 2.2 ? The spreadsheet says 15sec which means 1.5ppm, but I heard everything between 1 and 2 ppm, so does anyone now more about the "nerf" ?
does anyone have an exact recording how long the uptime of the dragonspine is now with 2.2 ? The spreadsheet says 15sec which means 1.5ppm, but I heard everything between 1 and 2 ppm, so does anyone now more about the "nerf" ?
Best current models put it at 1 PPM with a 20-second cooldown.
But 10sec uptime, with a Cooldown of 20sec means there is a space of 30 sec, which gets me to the claim that it should be nearer to 2ppm than 1ppm. This is only theoretically and does not implement real fight situation.
Daemona: Ever considered giving it to a Bear for more Aggro? *vanish*
Actually, when bear tanking it's not a bad trinket for generating extra threat, since bears have a slow attack speed. It provides a solid single target threat increase when chain spamming Maul. It had an awesome uptime too, though I suppose that'd be nerfed now with the internal cooldown.
(No, I didn't CB a dps class on it. Really. We just had almost no rogues at the time and it dropped like crazy.)
I think the 2nd best trinket is [Warp-Spring Coil] with a 25% procc chance. So [Madness of the Betrayer] will be the 3rd best trinket with a 2 - 2.5ppm, which means about 40% uptime
Anyone with [Madness of the Betrayer] have a verified uptime % for that? Would that be the 2nd best physical DPS trinket for most classes/specs?
I have resigned myself to never getting a DST so I need something else to shoot for.
I can't provide you with the concrete numbers you may be looking for, but I picked up [Madness of the Betrayer] recently, and just by eyeballing, I would guess that it has a very similar proc rate to the current [Dragonspine Trophy], but without an internal cooldown; as I've had the proc refresh itself multiple times before the duration has expired. There was some discussion about this trinket going on over in the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet thread if I recall, so you may want to browse through there.
It seems pretty clear the cooldown is 30 seconds and not 20 seconds.
If "uptime meter" is 22-25% that'd be 10 second up 30 seconds down optimally (25%), or often somewhat less before it re-procs (22%).
If it's proc-ing 1.5x times per minute this is completely consistent with a 40 second cycle.
Except that the proc does not always instantly occur when the internal cooldown expires.
Also, 1 PPM generally applies on a per weapon basis, i.e. your main hand generates approximately 1 PPM, and your offhand generates approximately 1 PPM, and your special attacks also generate some fractional PPM based on the frequency you perform them relative to the speed of your main hand weapon. Those things considered, the "actual" PPM is easily pushed to around or over 2. However, the base proc rate is still calculated as 1 PPM.
(edit) Also note that internal cooldowns on procs are considered to begin their duration when the proc occurs, not when the proc expires. Thus, a 20 second cooldown would imply that Dragonspine Trophy would have "10 up, 10 down," rather than "10 up, 20 down."
(edit 2) I believe [Madness of the Betrayer] was calculated to also have 1 PPM with no internal cooldown. My modeling thus puts it at about 39.67% uptime, very close to the number mentioned above.
Let me be clear... How can the uptime be so lousy if the thing can proc 10s after the last proc expired?
The implies a horrible chance of proc. Effectively, if the thing is up 25% of the time and the effect lasts for 10 secs... If you are saying that the "cooldown" starts with the proc itself, then it has what I'd call a 40 sec cooldown.
I suppose if someone proved that it procs as soon as 10 sec after the last one ended, then we know indeed its 20 secs. I'm just stunned to learn the next proc is so extraorindary unlikely that the trinket is only up 10 secs out of 40 and yet it could be up 10 secs out of 20.
Well, I guess the post on page 15 of the thread "answers" my question, tho I confess its entirely not intituitve. If the average "start till to proc" was 14 seconds before, they surely implies a lot more than 1 proc per minute. In fact, it implies something dramatically higher.
If the proc per minute is down to 1, the cooldown is irrelevant at 20 seconds, it's that the cooldown destroys the proc rate. Only if the thing procs in the last 1/3 of the minute would it even matter. And then, still, on average you are getting your next minute's proc within your next minute.
I don't see how the proc before 2.2 wasn't ~3 ppm.
And if that's the case this was "triple nerfed""
(1) Haste change overall
(2) Proc per minute cut from 3+ to 1
(3) Internal CD added
Effectively (3) is irrelevant it's that (3) creates (2). Before you'd have slightly better than up 10, down 10 (according to the post I just reread). If ppm is really 1, then you'd have up 10, down 50 on balance anyway. (Yes, I get the 10 seeconds up can fall anywhere within the minute). The cooldown is enforcing a cycle time on the proc that didn't exist....
I was going to understand how this went from 55% uptime to 25% uptime based on an alleged 20sec internal cooldown, but I can't make the math work, so perhaps someone will.
Let's make some extreme simplifications to attempt to explain how it works. Assume it had an average of 20 sec between procs before, giving 50% uptime, with 20 sec cd it will have an average of 40 sec between procs, giving 25% uptime. How can this be so hard to grasp? And how is it not intuitive?
And please reread the post by Vulajin about how ppm works.
09/13/07, 6:29 PM
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