• Aldriana

Dragonspine Trophy has a 20 sec hidden cooldown, and is 1 PPM. In a raid environment, it typically takes about 20 seconds once it comes off cooldown to re-proc; hence procs are spaced by about 40 seconds, yielding the noted 25% uptime.

Madness of the Betrayer is a 1 PPM effect. It therefore runs 40-50% uptime.

Based off this information and the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet, we draw the following conclusions:

For a rogue, Dragonspine is still the best trinket in the game.

At late T5/early T6 type itemization, Warp Spring Coil is the 2nd best trinket for a rogue; however, as one moves into late T6 itemization, Madness and Ashtongue Talisman compete for the #2 slot; I believe Ashtongue to be slightly ahead for most rogues.

I can't comment for other classes, but given that other classes can't use either Ashtongue or WSC, it seems likely to me that Dragonspine Trophy/Madness of the Betrayer is the optimal combo for them.

However, it should be noted that a warrior will typically contribute more DPS to the raid by using Solarian's Sapphire over Madness of the Betrayer, assuming said warrior is placed in a group with at least 2 other melee DPSers (which, in my experience, is fairly common)

 

Mideci

I reference post #352 not to mention common sense and reality.

If the thing used to be up 55% of the time, it proced -- for the player -- 3x per minute. While it's fine to theorycraft how many procs per minute per type of attack (OH, MH, specials) that yields, unless I'm mistaken, the proc affects your white attacks regardless (both hands, hunters auto-shot, whatever).

So back on earth, before out of every 20ish seconds, it was up for 10 of them. In other words, 3x per minute you got a proc and you were hasted.

Now, apparently, the uptime is 25%. So for every 40ish seconds, it's up for 10 of them. This is 1.5 procs per minute -- for the player.

You were hasted for >30 secs per minute, you are hasted for 15 seconds per minute. What type of swing or special generated that haste is interesting when you are trying to understand the finer adjustment of how something like windfury affects (or doesn't if it turned out to be irrelevant0 the uptime.

That said, the only thing actually interesting to the player is the # of seconds per minute that it's working and / or the %age uptime, which are really one and the same.

What confused me was that, well, the mechanics are kind of convoluted once you get the answer. And you could've largely gotten the answer without every understanding the mechanics.

 

• Krish

I have still not seen any testing or consensus as to the uptime/PPM of this trinket's haste effect. As 1 PPM and 1.5 PPM give me drastically different values for this trinket, I'd love to find an answer somewhere. Does anyone know conclusively now that the change has been live for some time?

 

leebis

I see a lot of talk about ppm and uptime and stuff like that, and I think we've more than established that dragonspine's proc is better than the proc on madness...but I haven't seen anyone say what is obvious to me:
The stats on Madness are FAR superior to the stats on dragonspine. You gain a whopping 20 hit rating AND 40 attack power.
Shouldn't that count for something?

 

rayijin

Napkin math on estimated item budgets (DST vs MOTB):

[Dragonspine Trophy]
40 ap passive
81 haste (325 * 25% appx uptime with 1.5ppm)

[Madness of the Betrayer]
88 ap passive (+44 over dragonspine)
20 hit passive (+20 over dragonspine)
120 armor penetration (300 * 40% appx uptime)

Now the extra hit, ap and armor penetration are nice, however, look at the total amount of "budget" on each item with these approximations:

Assuming 1 stat budget point = 2 ap = 1 haste rating = 1 hit rating = 7 armor penetration

Appx budget for DST: 20+81= 101
Appx budget for MOTB: 44+20+17= 81

Although hit is the best stat for rogues to stack up to cap, other stats are close to as good overall, and in terms of total stats MOTB is behind significantly (~20%) compared to DST. I think blizzard needs to make the 300 armor penetration passive rather than a proc, then MOTB would basically be tied with DST instead of inferior in terms of budget. Either that or nerf DST again.

 

Hozz

They are terrible at trinkets.

[Ashtongue Talisman of Valor]

Who thought that was a good trinket for a T6 Warrior?

 

rayijin

This was clearly designed to assist in the 70-80 leveling process. Get this, dual wield [Syphon of the Nathrezim] enchanted with [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Lifestealing], and [Essence Infused Mushroom] and voila, you're the ultimate fury grinding machine!

 

DJmaya3d

So I went to Gruul yesterday, again, for the Nth time hoping for this trinket to finally drop. And it actually did! so i bid all my DKP to it but to my surprise i got outbid. BY A RETRIBUTION PALADIN!
I say man that sucks this is the best DPS trinket available ATM for a rogue. he says this is the best DPS trinket for a raiding retribution paladin.
is this true? should i be pissed? i have been unable to find anything in regards to paladins using this trinket.

 

The Truculent Gentleman

According to Bellator's dps spreadsheet in the Retribution DPS Theorycrafting post in the Class Mechanics forum, the DST is indeed the best trinket for a Ret Paladin currently in the game.

Link to the DPS thread: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t17193-p...s_theorycraft/

Based on my personal Retribution set (currently Protection specced for Hyjal) the DST is the single largest dps gain from any item, other than moving from Jin'rokh to Torch of the Damned. My guild is just starting T6 content.

 

DJmaya3d

cool thank you, i don't feel cheated anymore.

 

Trazhenko

It's also the best fury warrior trinket in the game, and the best enhancement shaman trinket in the game, not sure about druids or hunters. If you are a DPS class that does a significant portion of your DPS via autoattack, this trinket is very powerful.

Most of the arguments over the trinket stem from people saying "it adds more DPS to my class than it does to yours".

 

• promdates

Druids don't get as much of a return from the haste part of it. And I believe I remember someone discussing about how Tsunami Talisman was better for hunters due to them not wanting so much haste to screw up their rotations.

"On a scale of one to mein kampf, how many racists does it take to make a guild look terrible?"

[03:28] L_J: it's "olololo hero class"

[01:09:39] <DeeNogger> Any of the resident grammer nazis on right now?

 

ahz

I have to wonder, why haven't they nerfed this trinket yet?

Seems odd in its placement to have such a dominating trinket for so many classes.

 

◊ Penguin

If I recall correctly, it has already undergone 2 nerfs. The buff used to not have an internal CD and could refresh itself, and that got nerfed to a 45sec internal CD. Then melee haste overall took a nerf.

There's not some hidden "but he tries really hard" variable built into the game. -Slake

I always love the "it doesn't fit my style of play" line. There are only two styles of play; Correct, and Incorrect. The only people that ever use this line are people with the incorrect style of play. -Sebudai

 

Enova

It is probably one of the many fail safe tricks to keep old content from not being skipped entirely, with the arrival of high level gear for most other slots.

And to be honest, people farmed Onyxia for ages for a bag.
Plus, Blizz did the same with BWL, when people still cleared it for trinkets even when having Kel on farm. Heck, [Neltharion's Tear] and [Drake Fang Talisman] are still viable options to this day in some cases.

And last but not least, it was nerfed, twice even. Firstly, the haste effect from haste rating was reduced, and then the DST got an internal 20 sec cooldown, if I'm not mistaken.

EDIT: beaten to it, and I got the nerf wrong, too :/

 

Levidian

You do realize there are TWO trinket slots right?

Also @ the haste portion of your post. It all depends on spec and what weapon the hunter is using. Haste doesn't "screw up rotations"

 

Enova

There is a generally accepted notion that one active ([Bloodlust Brooch] for instance) trinket and one passive trinket (DST or Tsunami) are better than 2 passives, because you can control part of the effects, and time them with Bloodlusts/Drums/haste pots/Deathwish, whatever.

 

• promdates

There are two trinket slots, I realize that. Like Enova said, its usually a good idea to have a passive and active as opposed to two passive.

I didnt say that DST was horrible for hunters, just that Warrior/Rogue/Shaman will probably NOT replace it while hunters will have a higher chance to replace it. The discussion was about what classes it is THE BEST IN THE GAME for, not who its good for.

"On a scale of one to mein kampf, how many racists does it take to make a guild look terrible?"

[03:28] L_J: it's "olololo hero class"

[01:09:39] <DeeNogger> Any of the resident grammer nazis on right now?

 

triman

DST is easily the best current dps trinket for feral druids (and the only one that scales well). Also some reports of massive threat boost in bear (+10-20% tps) which would be situationally very useful.

 

Enova

Leaving aside the tps aspect, which, as you said, is situational since you're likely to use survival trinkets while tanking, how does a DST (and haste as a whole, actually) benefit feral dps? I was under the impression there's a default, 1.0 attack speed in cat form, that can't be lowered by haste. Am I missing something here?

 

Bula

Yeah, you're missing the fact that the 1.0 attack speed can actually be lowered by haste. Otherwise the trinket would be obviously worthless.

More feral attacks equals more tier4 2 piece procs equals a LOT more damage.

 

panny

Man, I would love to have my old Bear MT have this trinket.

Fix Spirit Wolves not responding to commands.
DK/Rogue

 

triman

Yeah...I'd like one as well.

Actually, if the +10-20% tps increase in bear was confirmed (I do not believe it has been) I think a good argument could be made that bears should get it first if you play the "what benefits guilds the most" game. Beyond the situational MT usage where you need the extra threat and can afford to lose some mitigation/survivability by swapping out whatever trinket is opposite the badge of tenacity (the options are good but not spectacular)...it would be incredible for offtanking fights where the druid shifts between bear and cat (huge aggro boost in bear, best dps trinket in cat).

 

• Golijov

I would say that argument is a stretch. Bears don't really suffer from low threat generation, and the benefit to the dps classes will generally benefit the raid more.

 

Roywyn

The trinket is 40 AP and 20% haste for 25% of the time. So, an average of 5% haste.
Claiming that it increases your TPS by 10-20% is pretty absurd.