triman

Some fights are threat capped. Some fights need for OTs to build threat quickly. Rogue in my guild says that if I did +15% more threat he could forgo salvation (faster farming ftw). In certain situations a +15% threat would allow for a similar increase in dps from the entire raid. ( > +50dps from a single rogue). Again, situational but very powerful if true but...

I'm a bit skeptical myself...I'm just saying "if true". Obviously something non-linear would be going on for a TPS increase like that. Not sure if the number of mauls that could be used would increase non-linearly.

 

◊ Ulfgar

Why would they?

In fact, given that your other major threat gen abilities are on the GCD and unaffected by the DST haste proc, an average of 5% melee haste would result in a less than 5% increase in TPS.

For someone to claim 10-20%, they must be:

- talking about the uptime period for the haste proc, rather than the average of both uptime and downtime together;
- dealing with a very specific cirumstance in which you are highly rage-starved, to the point where you can't use your threat abilities every GCD and thus more white attacks will give you a significant increase in available rage/threat; or
- wrong.

 

Lenaldo

Furthermore, assuming you run with at least 3 paladins what exactly is your rogue going to gain by not having salv? Light? Honestly, a feral druid taking this trinket from a "dps" class is just loot-hungriness. I highly doubt this trinket is going to substantially increase your TPS, and since kitty dps is largly based on yellow damage(or so I'm told) coupled with the fact that you would be bear form for trash+some bosses; it seems utterly wasted.

A fury warrior / rogue / hunter / etc would provide far more benefit to his/her guild than a feral druid recieving this trinket. Unless your feral druid is incredibly bad; there really should be almost no way for a good dps-class with salvation to pull threat off of them. I cant think of one fight in TBC that I could benefit from a bear druid having 5% more TPS. However, I can think of numerous fights where DPS classes pumping out more damage will greatly benefit the raid.

For a guild that is truely trying to progress; it seems silly to give a dps trinket to someone who is only going to dps with it a portion of the time. More so, you are giving it to someone who is already at a 1.0 attk speed; thus the benefit will be less than that of someone using a slower weapon.

 

koaschten

Where does all that stupid thinking about the fastest speed you can attack is 1.0 come from? STOP spreading it please. And haste-rating is a percentage gain, so neither slow nor fast weapons are favoured.

 

Cos-

Someone using 2 1.0 speed weapons gets the exact same benefit as someone using 2 2.0 speed weapons, don't confuse the issue :P. It's a % increase to white damage at it's most basic level.

 

tagrat

To put an end at this moronic discussion, see toskks dps generator at The Druid Wiki � ToskksDPSGearMethod
(6000ap 48%crit, ignore hit/expertise cap)

EAP
203.93 Dragonspine Trophy E125
181.95 Tsunami Talisman E128
169.41 Madness of the Betrayer E141
150 Berserker's Call E133
135.29 Hourglass of the Unraveller
120 Darkmoon Card: Crusade E100

And DT scale better than any other trinket. It will be even better at 7000ap 55%crit (230eap, tsunami is at 189)


This is, by far, the best dps trinket for a feral druid in cat form. This is the best dps trinket for any melee dps (and maybe for hunter). Period.

 

Fleebenworth

Isn't shard of contempt better for most classes? Although I'm guessing you're not including 2.4 stuff.

 

tagrat

I think we dont have enough data to evaluate such new trinket in patch 2.4

 

Steko

Is 6000 AP a number you commonly achieve? Because sandboxing with the best gear* and full raid buffs still leaves me around 5000 AP with Unleashed Rage up making the comparison quite a bit closer then you present.

* 2T4 and 4T6 using the extra T6 on PTR. 2T4 isn't the highest AP gear but is a very common setup and has a lot of synergy with DST.

 

Rathyr

Any fight with multiple threat resets would allow DPS to go all out faster. Fury warriors, Enhance Shammies, Ret PLDs, warlocks... Any high DPS class with no reset button on their aggro would benefit from a tank having more threat. In my TPS set (nearly maxed Expertise, high hit and crit), I still can have problems versus Full T6 DPS classes when they can go all out. Druid threat is high, but like PLD/Warrior, it can't keep up with Glaive equiped classes and crazy crazy warlocks.

I find the Feral DST argument amusing everytime an uninformed poster makes it. To me, it seems that everyone that claims Feral should pass on it is the loot hungry one, looking for less competition. DST is the best in slot DPS trinket for nearly every physical DPS class in the game. End of story. Unless you are a cookie cutter, cutting edge progression guild, give the trinket to whoever has earned it.

Feral white DPS typically ranges between 30-40% white. However, the use of Haste increases 2pc T4, which every Feral druid uses until 4pc T6, and even then its a toss up. In 2.4, Druids will combine the two set bonuses. The only gear set up that beats 2pc T4 in Sunwell is literally having the best DPS leather pieces (the rogue ones) in every slot. Even then, its a tiny upgrade.

I hope that clears up some misinformation for you.

No, the guild is benefited by rewarding good players with the gear they have earned. Following the "who gets the most/best use of an item" logic is a quick way to make raid members feel trivialized because they are given loot not on their attitude, skill and attendance, but what class they decided to roll two years ago. Class discrimination creates drama, drama causes raids to crash.

As Ferals are pretty much the only class expected to play two roles within a raid, they would never be given gear based on the fact they are playing their class well. "You only tank 50% of the time, loot goes to Warrior/PLD!". "You only DPS half the time, loot goes to Rogue!". See the problem? I am not suggesting that Ferals are given twice the loot, but ignoring the fact that they are expected to DPS when not tanking breeds the ignorant opinions that Ferals cannot DPS end game. Fact of the matter is I never received a DPS upgrade for all T4/T5 content, so it was hardly a suprise when my DPS started to lack. Now that I am in a fairly decent DPS set, I can get some respectable placements on the meters.

If I tally up all my DPS and tank loot I received in T6, I still dont match the "pure" classes, because Blizzard neglected to give Feral Druids more than 1 offset piece per entire Tier (thanks for the boot upgrade in T4/5/6!). Most Druid ares in the same boat. Think on that before denying a class an item.

 

Allev

6000 AP is possible, if you average out AP procs, buffed out in an feral/enh/war/2xRogue group. Include adamantite weightstones, as they'll work for druids next patch.

Some points on the scaling of haste rating for feral druids:

Simply, very few stats actually scale well for feral druids. Agility is far and away the best. Since only one trinket has on-use agility (and it's primarily an armor trinket), we don't get our ideal stat on trinkets. Agility tends to be 30-50% better point-for-point than most other stats. Armor penetration is also slightly better than other stats. All the other stats are fairly bunched together-- especially at endgame, you can call haste, hit, crit, AP, and Strength have at most a 20% spread between all of them at endgame. A haste proc is more or less as good as an AP proc, equally itemized.

Since DST is still "overitemized" even compared to T6 trinkets, it is the best trinket out there for feral druids.

The most important factors for giving it to a feral is the percentage of time the feral will use it, and the DPS upgrade it will give them. If you prioritize DPS trinkets to classes that they're best for, ferals will be waiting a LONG time to get them. If they're using a [Crystalforged Trinket] because TTs and MotBs have also been going to DPS classes, CfT->DST for the feral could be a larger upgrade to raid DPS than MotB->DST or WSC->DST for a rogue if the feral DPSes often enough. The ferals don't get DPS trinkets just for being their class like rogues do, either.

So-- 20 DPS for a (3rd or 4th tank) feral who DPSes 75% of the time or 10 DPS for a rogue that DPSes 100% of the time? If you've always been prioritizing DPS trinkets to "pure DPS" classes, this case might come up, and it becomes optimal to upgrade the feral.

 

Mideci

I'm actually often persuaded by Allev's argument. It's kinda foolish to put such a vauable item in the hands of a class where it's "less optimal" as a general rule. That said, if said class has been has been kept down by "the man" enough times, eventually his day comes. It's just worth considering what your guild actually does in your raids. And making your own decisions accordingly. Our ferals dps some. In our case, it'd be somewhat ridiculous for them to pick up the Dragonspine over, say, myself still sporting a Romulo's, never haven gotten a WSC, etc. etc. In another guild, YMMV.

 

killets

First off, I have to echo the sentiment that when measuring a "min-max" scenario for distribution of this trinket, that you have to look at replacement value coupled with attendance. Obviously, if a rogue already has Madness (and has Ashtongue exalted, or nearing it), the replacement value compared to a druid with Hourglass just does not compute. I hate the argument that "its wasted", when a 20 dps upgrade is the same no matter what class is wielding it. With that said, I'm a feral druid with a DST (only got it last week). I am also the guildmaster of my guild... before anyone crys holy hell, hear me out.

I don't mean this as anything but a suggestion, but what I've done for my guild is that I've encouraged people to form "PUG Gruuls" in order to farm this trinket, with intent that the trinket is reserved for guild members only.

While we've been killing Illidan since October, it's clear that this trinket is better than anything available in BT for every physical dps class I can think of. Even the class that benefits the least, Feral Druids (with 40-45% dps as white dmg) finds this as the #1 dps trinket by far in raid buffed situations. It would be silly to not continue to farm gruul, but the fact is, if your entire guild gets saved to 1 gruul, you have exactly 1 chance at the trinket per week (with a drop rate of 20%). Currently, my guild has something like 12 reliable physical dps, of which only 3 had this trinket before a couple months ago. If I want to equip my guild with as many DSTs as possible, would it not make sense to try to separate us into 4 different gruul groups to get 4 chances at it?

Now what I've found is that you don't need 25 people in T6 to kill gruul. In fact, you don't need any. You don't even need to be fully epic'd to kill Gruul in this fashion. I've found that plenty of "half blue/epic" players are willing to come to gruuls if only for a chance at the T4, not to mention things like the caster sword or the warrior shield.

B/c of this, my guild has been running "PUG Gruuls" for the past 2 months now. We usually have 3-4 guildies in each one, and maybe another 1-2 alts. We then fill the rest of the raid with Karazhan level pugs, who with good leadership, can destroy Maulgar and Gruul. The only challenge you sometimes need to overcome is finding a capable Mage tank. But having 2 of your main mages in your guild perform this can handle it for 2 groups at the minimum.

Of course, Blackrock is a high population server, so this might be more difficult for people on less populated servers. But nevertheless, since we've started encouraging the 4-pug-gruul marathon, our guild has netted 4 more DSTs in 2 months.

(In preparation for each of the pugs I run however, I do spend about 20 min gathering 25 sorcerer and beast flasks.. its not free, but its a relatively cheap price to pay for such an awesome trinket. If you think about how difficult it is to claw up the DKP for a Madness of the Betrayer, compared with the relative ease of organizing a 45 min pug gruul run, pug gruul wins... my motto for the guild is basically, every physical dps should have one, since its so easy to get)

 

• Daboran

WWS

On average Catform normal melee damage is 40-45% of overall damage, not to mention the T4 bonus gain potential from faster attacks when DST procs.

I have to agree with the previous post - if your Rogue already has Madness and Ashtongue trinket, then giving DST to the Druid stuck with Hourglass or similar (as many including myself are) would potentially benefit the raid more on boss encounters where they are in a dps role. Honestly, how long do you expect your Ferals to "pass" items? Until WotlK?

I've passed DST and TT to our dps classes so far despite being able to out-bid them usually but it's a decision based on what they currently use - not any perceived "greater benefit" in absolute terms.

http://forums.epixplx.com/uploads/41_teronap.jpg


I don't have the best gear available but if I'm in a dps role on the live servers this is my stats - 6000 is reasonably possible I'd say.

 

Omala

Has anyone noticed this not working for hunters in raids since 3.0.2?

The current theory is that it doesn't stack with the new WF totem.

 

Houjit

It was working for me last night in Hyjal. The haste buff has been renamed from "Haste" to "Dragonspine Flurry".

 

Omala

Yeah, it had looked as if the buff was not staying up. Some closer looking at our WWS we find:

I did the math between shots based on the time the damage was dealt. Granted, this isn't perfect because this doesn't calculate where the hunter was standing and is not calculating travel time, or if he was moving.


1.578
1.656
1.594
1.797
3.094
0.421
0.500 Dragonspine Flurry.
1.000
0.860
0.781
0.828
0.782
0.782

Looks like a safe bet it's working as intended.

Thanks for the response though.

 

dralarn

Does anyone know if this procs off of spells?

 

david0925

Reading the tooltip will help you determine that.

Equip: Your melee and ranged attacks have a chance to increase your haste rating by 325 for 10 sec.

Maniq is my hero

 

Yeoldelock

You probably want this [Quagmirran's Eye]