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Old 08/21/07, 7:07 AM   #286
constantius
Soda Popinski
 
Pandaren Priest
 
Windrunner
You may want to pick some fights that are single-target focus-fire tank & spank, and look at the differential between your top caster and your top melee.

Hint: if it isn't huge, there's something wrong with your melee. The largest contributor to this scaling is haste, specifically proc haste effects.

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Old 08/21/07, 7:20 AM   #287
banaj
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Mage
 
Talnivarr (EU)
While casters got some coefficient nerfs melee got some buffs directly (glancing) and indirectly (less cleaves etc) since the start of tbc. Removing the coefficient nerf for mages will put em quite a bit higher, 10% of 1200-1500dmg (not-buffed/buffed) times all the % modifiers is quite a big difference.. like popping 2 flasks.

The crafted tailoring sets were really strong, with the tailoring set + some random items you would be around 900-1000 +fire dmg for a mage. The only hard part was to get enough hit on the rest of your items.

Nowadays mages are around 1200-1300ish general spelldmg (can go a bit higher) but it's easier to cap hit. The gear we get now is more about getting int/sta/spir and not that much focused on extra dmg (compared to straight up +fire/arcane on spellfire). Tailoring didn't have much stats which resulted in the evoc whines, but at the same time were really efficient on the dmg stats.

For the tier pieces to come close to how good tailoring items were they have to make different +dmg sets, like a fire set for fire mages.. arcane for arcane. Other classes already can turn in pieces for different spec sets, so why not make it for the more basic classes as well. This will suck when you want to switch spec ofcourse, but it's the only way of upping the dps by a lot. Dropping random stats for dmg stats would help as well, but the tier sets always were the balanced items and you would just add random cloth to get extra dmg instead of stats.

Generally rogues win in dmg, but i don't mind. It's just that sometimes they seem so far ahead that i can't even dream of doing that much dmg even with the biggest crit streak. On another note, BM hunters seem to get ridiculously strong as well with the gear they get now. That is with a cat, not the cheesy scorpion.
Hope this isn't too much of a whine post, but some information about scaling

Waiting for the next itemization round is not really a solution, cause the same thing will happen again. Maybe blizz won't introduce new tailoring sets and all the casters will be behind from the start with no hope to get even or past the melee. If they want to fix it they can just look at how all the classes turn out now at the end-game and fix it.

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Old 08/21/07, 9:20 AM   #288
Kaubel
Sledgehammer Emeritus
 
Kaubel's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Kaber, shut up.

Everyone arguing with Kaber, shut up.

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Old 08/31/07, 1:02 PM   #289
lux
Glass Joe
 
Troll Warrior
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
well the only thing that rogues can do is dmg. they dont buff anyone cant cc, nothing.

if they werent the highest dmg dealing class the would be absolutly useles.

blizzard always wanted to keep every dmg class below the rogues...

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Old 09/01/07, 2:40 PM   #290
Morelis
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Lightbringer
I was doing some testing on trinket values for enhancement shaman and it was suggested I post the DST results here as well. Uptime was measured using: Uptime Meter | Downloads

If anyone else would like to do some similar testing to see if my results were accurate that would be great.

I just finished testing DST uptime on the PTR(then on live for comparison) and according to my 30min test the proc rate has been lowered substantially. I measured 22.79% uptime over the 30mins. That seemed pretty startling so I repeated the test on the live realms and with identical gear and testing as close to the same as I can manage it scored 41.88%. I 'm sure the sample is small enough for there to be some pretty significant variation, but I'd be surprised if that much of a difference came down to chance.

For the testing I swapped out all my passive haste and haste-proc gear so the haste nerf itself should have a fairly minimal impact in the results. Here's the screenshots:

PTR - http://grig.shackspace.com/dst-ptr.jpg
Live - http://grig.shackspace.com/dst-live.jpg

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Old 09/01/07, 5:48 PM   #291
Hozz
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Suramar
Anyone else have any data? I think it was only a matter of time before it got nerfed.

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Old 09/01/07, 6:44 PM   #292
Tyran
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Silvermoon (EU)
After reading the above post I went to test it for myself.

Using the same addon, I did a 20+ minute test on both Live and PTR with my rogue.

Live:


PTR:


I don't have the combat log but I am almost 100% sure the trinket has a 20-25 second internal cooldown on the test server. I never saw the buff refresh itself during that test, and on live servers it happens all the time.

This is just a rough estimation, but using the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet and cutting the value of this trinket by 40% (in addition to the haste rating nerf), it still appears to be the best trinket by far.
So yeah, like the above poster said it was only a matter of time.

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Old 09/01/07, 9:32 PM   #293
Sapp
Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
<NI>
Detheroc
Haha, so they fixed Dragonspine even before changing haste?

That's a very Blizzard solution, I guess; why fix something once when you can fix it twice?

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Old 09/02/07, 1:53 PM   #294
koaschten
In the rear with the gear!
 
koaschten's Avatar
 
Troll Rogue
 
Khaz'goroth (EU)
I can second the info's that Tyran provided, i ran 3 sessions of ~10 minutes each on the ptr and live realms and with (almost) identical gear i hovered between 25% uptime ptr and 45% uptime live.

Talk about more melee nerfing....

edit:
Live


PTR

Last edited by koaschten : 09/02/07 at 2:03 PM.

How to get an Android Authenticator on your PC. (updated feb'11)

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Old 09/02/07, 1:55 PM   #295
♦ Praetorian
Mike Tyson
 
Praetorian's Avatar
 
Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
...but it's still the best rogue trinket in the game, right? I mean it's kind of funny that they can nerf its uptime by almost 50% and nerf the effects of haste by 33% and it still comes out on top. Just shows how ridiculous the item was.

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Old 09/02/07, 2:42 PM   #296
Morelis
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Praetorian View Post
...but it's still the best rogue trinket in the game, right? I mean it's kind of funny that they can nerf its uptime by almost 50% and nerf the effects of haste by 33% and it still comes out on top. Just shows how ridiculous the item was.
I can't say for rogues but I know for shaman it's no longer the best. The Ashtongue trinket and the one from the council will both be better, the changes put DST about equal with the one from Leo. Since rogues get a little more value out of haste and a little less out of ap, I'd suspect they're in a a similar position. Good news for those who never had one drop.

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Old 09/02/07, 2:44 PM   #297
Fallacy
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether
How about Drakefist/Dragonmaw/Dragonstrike? Were they affected similarly with a new internal cooldown?

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Old 09/02/07, 5:17 PM   #298
LenniZ
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Vashj (EU)
How will this trinket compare to lets say Warp-Spring Coil after this nerf?

Also, can any of you who's testing DST on PTR find out how long the internal cooldown is?

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Old 09/02/07, 9:37 PM   #299
daugh
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by Praetorian View Post
...but it's still the best rogue trinket in the game, right? I mean it's kind of funny that they can nerf its uptime by almost 50% and nerf the effects of haste by 33% and it still comes out on top. Just shows how ridiculous the item was.
IMO it's more because there are a distinct lack of epic quality options in the trinket slots. If you think about it, what trinkets are available? Kara, theres romeo's vial (haha yay) then the only other epic quality trinket before Black temple (for all classes minus rogues) is tsunami and the threat one off vashj which is mediocre at best. So really, DST is still the best trinket for melee, not because its still actually great, but because there are no other options. Unless you feel it's right that you're still using heroic badge loot in BT than it is using Gruul loot in BT.

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Old 09/02/07, 10:12 PM   #300
Switchblade
Von Kaiser
 
Switchblade's Avatar
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Arthas
Originally Posted by daugh View Post
IMO it's more because there are a distinct lack of epic quality options in the trinket slots. If you think about it, what trinkets are available? Kara, theres romeo's vial (haha yay) then the only other epic quality trinket before Black temple (for all classes minus rogues) is tsunami and the threat one off vashj which is mediocre at best. So really, DST is still the best trinket for melee, not because its still actually great, but because there are no other options. Unless you feel it's right that you're still using heroic badge loot in BT than it is using Gruul loot in BT.
Drake Fang and kiss of the spider making a comeback

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