I donno, Neltharion's Tear is probably the longest lived trinket I can think of. End of BWL all the way through to what... Mag's trinket?
Isn't Rejuvenating Gem even still going strong. Should they intentional have used the itemization points on the DST incorrectly? Why shouldn't Gruul drop the best trinket if the itemization is just right.
I donno, Neltharion's Tear is probably the longest lived trinket I can think of. End of BWL all the way through to what... Mag's trinket?
Don't forget about Drakefang Talisman. Dropped from (arguably) the easiest boss in BWL and wasn't replaced by a fairly large number of raiding rogues who had it until Gruul/SSC.
Originally Posted by DeeNogger
Every time I bite into an oatmeal raisin cookie mistaken for a chocolate-chip an angle loses its wings. Fucking trani's of the cookie world!
Oh, I still have mine - but DST replaces it. I guess Ebonroc -> Nef is a bigger gap than Gruul->Mag, so you may have a point there. I -think- by Abacus/Romulo's Vial any reasonable rogue should have replaced DFT, I just personally haven't been able to get either to drop (in many, MANY Mech runs, and our Kara group very rarely sees R&J).
Last edited by Shaker : 07/19/07 at 2:22 PM.
Reason: TLAs 4TL
I could simply choose to say "this is the best trinket in the game right now for a rogue by a ton, I should get it." I think that would be greedy and immature. Instead, I want to find out how good it is for other classes before I make any statement on it.
What you're saying is completely true <combat rogue> what you mean to say is "this trinket is best utilized by a rogue by far, i should get it!" Saying that pre-emptively without full facts would be greedy and immature. However - in my own anecdotal opinion it is correct.
I dont have any real idea about a hunter, there has been alot of discussion about it clipping shots and messing up rotations and it seems with certain variables it may be a very good trinket. For a fury warr or enhancement shaman it is the same trinket that it is for a rogue (procs notwithstanding) but in a raid environment those two classes are threat capped and forced to hold back at times whereas 90% of the time a rogue has a way out to continue dps. Most of that is of course situational and maybe even flat out wrong for other guilds, but thats been my experience with both fury and enh specs.
I think the huge gimmick here about DST is the fact that it (and haste in general) interacts really well with various class mechanics. DW Warrior's Heroic Strike, Rogue's Combat Potency, Druids (to a lesser degree) Procs off T4 2 piece set bonus, etc. I don't reall know how they can nerf this item to not be absolutely the best without touching the mechanics. Lowering duration can work i suppose
I think the huge gimmick here about DST is the fact that it (and haste in general) interacts really well with various class mechanics. DW Warrior's Heroic Strike, Rogue's Combat Potency, Druids (to a lesser degree) Procs off T4 2 piece set bonus, etc. I don't reall know how they can nerf this item to not be absolutely the best without touching the mechanics. Lowering duration can work i suppose
They nerf it by providing haste on higher ilvl gear. As you add more and more haste into your stats it of course comes down in value in relation to your other stats. I am not quite sure what levels these are at and it differs for every class as well but that would do it.
Thank you for the input. I'm trying to get closer to the hit cap while keeping my crit and AP up, but things like the DST, WSC and other such effects are a little newer on my list of prioritization, so the help is appreciated.
I'll be trying out the Thundering Skyfire tonight and will keep my eyes peeled for a DST the next time we do Gruul. I've played with an old version of the DPS calculator, but unfortunately work seems to have the site it's currently available at blocked, and I haven't set up my home computer for such files yet.
Perhaps to kill time tomorrow I'll mail the file to my work computer, or just stop being lazy and get the excell alternative mentioned. Either way, I'm trying to gear intelligently and avoid wasting gear and dkp on trinkets I won't get the most out of.
Anecdotally, the haste procs are a nice boost to my damage that are less prone to huge aggro pulling crits.
Between Mongoose, Thundering Skyfire, Dragonspine and Flurry, it's very rare that I swing at "normal" speeds. However, I realize that often my offhand, Malchazeen, ends up at a sub-1.0spd on my character sheet. I've seen numerous comments that your swing timer doesn't actually go below 1.0, so this puts an interesting twist on the value of haste.
I find that Thundering Skyfire is drastically limited by it's internal cooldown; reviewing WWS from our raids, it has about half the number of instances as DST. Given that it's a much smaller haste boost, it may be that the Relentless Earthstorm actually provides more benefit for a class with a substantial crit value. I need to investigate this with some math.
While I'd be thoroughly excited by the Tsunami Talisman, I think it's far more prudent to keep the damn Fetish of the Sand Reaver in my other trinket slot, eat the dps loss compared to the Tsunami and try to keep my ass alive.
They nerf it by providing haste on higher ilvl gear. As you add more and more haste into your stats it of course comes down in value in relation to your other stats. I am not quite sure what levels these are at and it differs for every class as well but that would do it.
While this is true we currently need an obscene amount of haste rating to make it on par with other stats. Pf posted in a thread I started with some quick math.
Edit- Quote
Originally Posted by Pf
Anyway, on the topic of the thread. Haste rating does diminish in relative value with each point added, whereas regular % haste modifiers do not have the same relative diminishing return. Simply put, haste rating is additive whereas a haste modifier is multiplicative. Another way of putting it would be 10 haste rating grants you 1% haste at base attack speed, but after say 30% haste worth of haste rating, you still go up by 1% haste, but only gain .77% attack speed instead of 1%.
Between Mongoose, Thundering Skyfire, Dragonspine and Flurry, it's very rare that I swing at "normal" speeds. However, I realize that often my offhand, Malchazeen, ends up at a sub-1.0spd on my character sheet. I've seen numerous comments that your swing timer doesn't actually go below 1.0, so this puts an interesting twist on the value of haste.
I've had my offhand at sub .3 speeds before, and it's pretty obvious that it swings faster than 1.0. Heck, my mainhand was sub .5 too :p
Interesting. This provides two completely opposing statements about it. Does anyone have definitive proof readily available one way or the other?
Im pretty sure we can take a look at almost any combat log posted that has time stamps to prove that. Most rogues using a 1.5 to 1.3 speed OH weapons and looking at haste procs will go under 1.0 speed. As far as the character sheet yes it very definately goes below 1.0, best i've noticed has been 0.58 and that was without any heroism active.
Interesting. This provides two completely opposing statements about it. Does anyone have definitive proof readily available one way or the other?
It's actually this weird bit of misinformation that won't die. As said above, there are WWS logs upon logs that will show it. Additionally, I've seen it shown via combat log posted to these forums, so it's here somewhere, too.
Off the top of my head, I'd hit the "How does flurry work?" post for data.
It is an interesting myth that seems to resonate well with people for some reason. In EQ people would always come back to claiming capped attack speeds despite evidence refuting such ideas. I mean, for years this rumor just kept surfacing without any backing evidence at all and with blatantly obvious proof to the contrary.
It's interesting psychology and little else I suppose.
Fair enough. I wasn't claiming one over the other since I hadn't tested it, nor had I seen definitive proof. If you all are stating you've empirically tested it and that it functions normally, I'll go with that, then.
I think the guild would benefit more from me having this over say a hunter or feral druid though.
How can you possibly say this after all the comments about it also being a great benefit for Hunters too? As I've said, this is an extremely great trinket for hunters. I don't know much about feral druids, but I don't see how this could possibly be bad for them either. In the end, it should be awarded to the person who will make the most raid wise usage of it. If it's a druid with 100% attendance and more DKP, than fine. He earned it. However to start putting priority on items like trinkets, rings, and necks will only start to piss of those who are being bumped to the bottom. Weapons are completely understandable, accessories are not.
How can you possibly say this after all the comments about it also being a great benefit for Hunters too? As I've said, this is an extremely great trinket for hunters. I don't know much about feral druids, but I don't see how this could possibly be bad for them either. In the end, it should be awarded to the person who will make the most raid wise usage of it. If it's a druid with 100% attendance and more DKP, than fine. He earned it. However to start putting priority on items like trinkets, rings, and necks will only start to piss of those who are being bumped to the bottom. Weapons are completely understandable, accessories are not.
Doesn't a substantial chunk of hunter DPS come from the pet? That's the only thing that comes to mind.
Our DSTs went to an MS/slam warrior first, due to the fact we had no DKP set up at the time and we were /rolling. He actually only rolled to keep it out of the hands of a new/unreliable rogue, but his damage appears to have gone way up (uses a Gorehowl and beats the Fury warrior with T3 axe).
Yeah after looking over some of our WWS parses I think I've changed my mind about hunters. I thought a larger portion of their total damage came from sources that DST won't affect. Apparently even BM hunters are getting a decent chunk of their damage(about 60%) from auto shot and Steady Shot, and haste will improve both of those.
I think the item is still noticeably more effective in the hands of a combat sword rogue than any other class. They get a huge portion of their total damage from auto attacks, sword specialization and Windfury procs. Rogues also just plain deal more damage than the other classes, and as such net a larger benefit from percentage based damage increases.
Hunters, enhancement shaman and fury warriors all appear to benefit about equally from the item. I think feral druids gain the least from it. A huge chunk of their total damage comes from special attacks, and they just deal less damage than the other physical dps classes. They also spend a lot of their time in raids as a tank, and not a damage dealer.
I'm still not sure how good haste is for arms spec warriors. I know ours does a ton of damage via Slam, and even though haste reduces the casting time of Slam, I'm not sure how that all works after the talents and global cooldown come into play.
Fair enough. I wasn't claiming one over the other since I hadn't tested it, nor had I seen definitive proof. If you all are stating you've empirically tested it and that it functions normally, I'll go with that, then.
Actually, after looking into it a bit more I might have re-convinced myself that haste is not as good for hunters as it is for rogues, warriors and enhancement shaman.
Even though haste rating reduces the casting time of Steady Shot it still doesn't allow you to Steady Shot any more than you already were, because the global cooldown is the limiting factor. Haste basically makes it easier to fit Steady Shot's in between your auto shots.
Our BM hunters rarely do more than 40% of their total damage via auto shot, and I bet they average closer to 35% or lower on a lot of encounters. Our sword rogues and fury warrior on the other hand do about 65% of their total damage via melee attacks that benefit from haste. I personally do about 55% of my damage via attacks that benefit from haste.
I'm not even convinced it's better for a hunter than a Tsunami Talisman, never mind as good for a hunter as it is for a sword rogue or a fury warrior. The haste proc is great for auto-attack/shot damage, but the ensuing increased rage generation or combat potency procs are what really put it in a class of its own for those 2 classes.
I donno, Neltharion's Tear is probably the longest lived trinket I can think of. End of BWL all the way through to what... Mag's trinket?
Other competitors would be Smoking Heart of the Mountain (Blackrock Depths) and Mark of Tyranny (UBRS) all the way through to Moroes' watch and the Badge of Tenacity and new stamina Darkmoon cards from 2.1. Some few items are just so well designed for specific classes or needs that they last seemingly forever. The Dragonspine Trophy looks like it might end up in that special category too.
07/19/07, 2:11 PM
I guess Ebonroc -> Nef is a bigger gap than Gruul->Mag, so you may have a point there. I -think- by Abacus/Romulo's Vial any reasonable rogue should have replaced DFT, I just personally haven't been able to get either to drop (in many, MANY Mech runs, and our Kara group very rarely sees R&J).
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