Have we gone around in circles sufficient times to merit a thread closure yet or is there more circumnavigating to be done?
The item in question is ridiculous for classes that can claim a large portion of their damage comes from auto-attack, as all haste effects are for those classes, see the treatise on haste in the mechanic's forum for details. It becomes less ridiculous the further away from auto-attack you migrate, to a low end of presumably mage/warlocks who recieve very little real benefit from it indeed.
As with all loot-council type decisions, you should award your raid's loot to the people who show up and are valuable to your raid. That's basicly the point of loot council.
In case you somehow missed the theorycraft amid all the "best for me" posts:
The largest numerical/theoretical gain from it is going to be a hamstring spamming warrior, then a combat potency rogue.
Many factors will mitigate the theorycrafted "best use" (not the least of which is that noone performs at their full theorycrafted potential in real play) and in the end the trinket is highly desirable and should probably have been a quest reward "always drops" type item given that desirability.
Lastly, expect to see this item nerfed - as it's out of place in terms of desirability vs difficulty.
Again, this discussion for me has never been about "best for me"--it's an attempt to understand the impact for each class. Value per class is one of the main factors involved in determining who gets an item. Since ideal hunter dps with haste is not modeled anywhere that I can see, I have become more interested in going down that path. I am posting what I have posted in my guild's loot council forum. I would appreciate if anyone can correct me where I have gone wrong:
"I believe completely that this is a strong upgrade for any spec of hunter; the reason that I have turned my focus towards exactly how haste mechanics work is because it illustrates why hunters generally choose to avoid haste procs given similar dps gains through other items, and why rogues receive continued bonuses from haste procs. Hunters will always benefit from extra haste (up to their cap), but don't want to stack haste beyond that, so they a) don't receive full benefit from the multiplicative aspects of haste, and b) don't receive full benefit from the chain-proccing aspects of haste.
In order to maximize the impact of haste (separate from how each class benefits from it) you would attempt to have all of your haste affects up at the same time. There are 2 reasons for this-- The first is that each separate effect that "increases attack speed" is multiplied together. Anything that says "haste rating" is added together to form one number that creates one effect (Attack speed % increase = Total haste rating/10.52)-- Each separate "Attack speed" effect is multiplied by that amount.
If you have a weapon with 1.0 attack speed and 100.0 dps, here is the impact of using Slice and Dice and Blade Flurry:
1st 10 seconds -- Slice and Dice (130% increase) -- 1.0 speed weapon becomes 1/1.3 = .769 speed. It will hit 13 times in 10 seconds, giving 1300 damage.
2nd 10 seconds -- Blade Flurry (120% increase) -- 1.0 speed weapon becomes 1/1.2 = .833 speed. It will hit 12 times in 10 seconds, giving 1200 damage.
Total Damage for 20 seconds --> 1500.
If you used them together, you get different results:
1st 10 seconds -- Slice and Dice (130% and Blade Flurry 120%) -- 1.0/(1.2*1.3) = .641 speed. It will hit 15.6 times in 10 seconds, giving 1560 damage
2nd 10 seconds -- no haste effects --> 1000 damage
Total damage for 20 seconds ---> 1560 --> 4% increase in damage.
Simply by using these 2 effects together, you gain a 4% increase in damage. Adding a 3rd "effect" into the equation by combining all of your haste rating effects at once, you get a geometrically larger number of damage.
The second reason why it's beneficial to attempt to stack haste effects is that each time you gain extra haste, you do more hits, which increases the likelihood that you will activate another haste proc, which in turn increases the likelihood that you will activate another...ad infinitum. Think of it like a car--it takes a while to get it started, but once you start the haste rolling, it keeps going at faster and faster speeds. The more procs that are possible for you to achieve, the higher the value of each point of haste, and the more beneficial adding extra haste is.
Rogues who have geared up appropriately have the following ways to increase haste in PvE:
Slice and Dice -- 30% increase to attack speed (finishing move; a rogue will keep this ability up about 99% of the time they are hitting a target)
Blade Flurry -- 20% increase to attack speed (2 minute cooldown)
Abacus of Violent Odds--260 haste rating for 10 seconds (every 2 minutes)
Haste Potion--400 haste rating for 15 seconds (consumable, useable every 2 minutes)
Drums of Battle--80 haste rating for 30 seconds (Leatherworking, 2 minute cooldown)
Thundering Skyfire Diamond -- metagem that gives 240 haste for 6 seconds (proc)
Mongoose Enchant -- One on each weapon--120 agility, 2% weapon speed increase (proc, can stack, so 2 possible)
Dragonspine Trophy -- 325 haste rating for 10 seconds (proc, no cooldown)
Heroism-- 30% increase to attack speed for 40 seconds (Shaman ability--10 minute cooldown--only ability in game that reduces the global cooldown)
Hunters have the following haste options (correct me if I am wrong):
Quiver/Bullet Bag--15% Ranged Attack speed increase -- always active
Rapid Fire--40% Ranged Attack speed increase (15 seconds, 5 minute cooldown -- 3 with talents)
Improved Aspect of the Hawk (First Tier BM)--15% Ranged Attack speed increase (10% chance on hit)
Abacus of Violent Odds--260 haste rating for 10 seconds (every 2 minutes)
Drums of Battle--80 haste rating for 30 seconds (Leatherworking, 2 minute cooldown)
Thundering Skyfire Diamond -- metagem that gives 240 haste for 6 seconds (proc)
Dragonspine Trophy -- 325 haste rating for 10 seconds (proc, no cooldown)
Heroism-- 30% increase to attack speed for 40 seconds (Shaman ability--10 minute cooldown--only ability in game that reduces the global cooldown, so has no negative affect towards haste-capping)
BM spec only:
Serpent's Swiftness (requires 40 points in BM)--20% ranged combat attack speed -- always active
Separate from any other benefit, every hunter has the effects of haste capped when their auto-shot speed gets down to 1.5 seconds. The reason for this is that the ideal shot rotation is auto-shot-->steady shot when you hit appropriate haste levels. You activate the global cooldown of 1.5 seconds at the beginning of each steady shot, and your auto-shot can't hit for another .5 seconds after you finish casting. This means that the highest number of steady shots that you can possibly cast are 1.5 seconds apart (which you attempt to cast right after your auto-shot hits).
A hunter with a 2.9 speed weapon hits their effective haste cap whenever they get their multiplicative increases above 193% (2.9/1.93 = 1.5). A MM hunter with a quiver (115%), with Imp Aspect of the Hawk procced (115%), who has just activated Rapid Fire (140%) is already operating at 185% weapon speed (1.15*1.15*1.4=1.8515). Any other haste effect that increases weapon speed by 3% is pushing them past their cap, and is wasted. A DST proc would be wasted in this case; a hunter does not want to use a haste potion, as this will push them past their cap, as will using the drums of battle. A thundering skyfire gem proc would also push them past their cap, and be wasted. At the time when the hunter would most be able to benefit from the multiplicative aspects of haste, they are not able to make use of any haste procs or on-use effects.
In fact, any time that a hunter with a 2.9 speed weapon has a quiver and Imp Aspect of the Hawk procced, an extra haste rating of 474 pushes them past their haste cap. (1.15*1.15*(1+474/(10.52*100))) = 1.93. A MM hunter with DST would exceed that cap any time that DST and IAOTH procs while using a haste potion, or the abacus, or get a thundering skyfire gem proc--and definitely would never want to combine any of these effects.
Alternatively, a rogue would attempt to use all procs at once. With only on use effects (and not counting any procs), rogues achieve (1.3*1.2*(1+740/(10.52*100))) = 266% increase in attack speed every two minutes, not counting heroism. Haste procs become increasingly likely as you achieve this attack speed, which bolster their effectiveness by 120% as much as if they happened separate from all of these other effects. A DST proc at this time would send the attack speed to 314%, any thundering skyfire or mongoose proc would keep increasing attack speed.
Again, by stacking haste effects and haste procs, rogues achieve maximum dps. By stacking haste effects and haste procs, hunters quickly reach a haste cap. Additionally, hunters have to alter their shot rotation in order to achieve maximum benefit from any haste proc. This is not a trifling matter; the hunter becomes limited both by their skill as well as by lag. This doesn't mean that haste doesn't increase hunter dps, but it does mean that hunters make the maximum use of their haste when they can anticipate it, when they have minimal lag (in order to time steady shots immediately after auto-shots fire), and when they can be sure that they will not go over their haste caps. Rogues do not have anything that limits the impacts they receive from haste procs; they benefit from a proc-based system."
I'll start my reply by saying that I have a Dragonspine Trophy; in fact, I have the first one that ever dropped for my guild.
This thread sounds a lot like the discussions on my old raiding guild's forums about who deserved a Drama Fang Talisman more. Whereas once we argued about how Hunters reached the Hit% cap easily and rogues didn't, now we (meaning the EJ forums) talk about how Hunters reach the Haste% cap easily and rogue's don't (ever).
I'm a BM spec hunter, 41/20/0, and I read on the forums all the time about how this trinket is "useless" for us. This couldn't be farther from the truth, really. Gone are the days where loot would be "wasted" on a Hunter; properly geared and specced, we have just as much damage potential as any other class. This fact alone screams louder than all the others that there should no longer be any "class priority" on such a trinket.
By far the most prevalent argument is, of course, that we reach the Haste% cap easily. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be allowed to find more efficient ways to reach that cap, so that we might improve our personal dps. In ye olden days, a DFT instead of my Royal Seal of Eldre'Thalas would have allowed me to drop 2% hit from other pieces of gear and wear crit% gear in it's place; effecting an increase in dps.
Ounce, you wrote down a list of possible haste buffs and equips/talents for hunters, then talked about how we already had "more than enough" options for Haste to hit the 1.5 second barrier. Unfortunately, many of the things you listed (the trinkets and Rapid Fire, mostly) have long cooldowns and have other items that are superior to them for dps. The reason we want DST is precisely the same reason everyone else wants it; for any class with autoattacking white damage, it's the best trinket in the game.
DST procs more often than Imp AotH does (YMMV), and has a greater effect than Imp AotH. This has allowed me to take points from that talent and place them in Endurance, which doesn't sound like much yet has saved me many times. DST has no internal cooldown, no cooldown whatsoever, which makes it superior to trinkets like the Abacus, far superior to Rapid Fire.
Thundering Skyfire is a decent option for hunters, but we're much better off with a +12 Agi / +3% crit chance meta paired with a DST anyway. Not everyone is a leatherworker, not everyone has a Shaman, and it doesn't matter anyway because DST is exceedingly better than Drums or Heroism anyway.
If I may repeat myself, we want it for the same reason everyone wants it. It's the best physical dps trinket in the game and seems like it will be for a long long time. I daresay even with an internal cooldown (which Blizzard had a chance to add in 2.1 and didn't.. in fact, they buffed the trinket even further with the +40 AP) it would still be the best physical dps trinket in the game.
the excessive amount of instant attacks will proc it more?
This, much like warriors can get ridiculous benefits from Windfury by using "Spamstring." No ICD tends to favor warriors because of that low-rage no-cooldown ability.
Ounce, you wrote down a list of possible haste buffs and equips/talents for hunters, then talked about how we already had "more than enough" options for Haste to hit the 1.5 second barrier.
The math the hunter in my guild put up indicated that the issue is more that it isn't a 1.5 second barrier, it is closer to 1.7 due to lag, etc.
Here is the math he posted:
So first off let's lay on the basic hunter mechanics. For Bm hunters.
Basic Mechanics for Hunters = GCD = 1.5 seconds
Autoshot delay = .5 seconds
Steady shot time = 1.5 seconds
Steady shot time w/ Serpent's swiftness = 1.3 seconds
Standard Bow/Gun Speed w/ 15% Quiver = 2.5 / 2.6 [2.9/115 x 100] and [3.0/115x100]
Standard Bow/Gun Speed w/ 15% Quiver + 20% haste
= 2.10/2.18 [2.9/115/120 x100x100]
[3.0/115/120 x100x100]
At these speeds with the current autoshot delay as well as the new steady shot timer.
steady shot = 1.3 seconds + 0.5 second delay. You leave .30 or .38 seconds in between steady shots.
Now hasted with Imp hawk = 15% more haste.
Steady shot time = 1.2 seconds (rounded up as caclulated by blizz) + 0.5 second delay = 1.7 seconds
autoshot = 1.82 leaving .12 or .19 in between steady shots.
at any form of latency here you are going to clip your autoshots and effectively delay it. ALso screwing up your shot rotation and putting you in a poistion where you really have to monitor too many things.
This is why it is not beneficial to stack haste because as the GCD stays the same and the steady shot timer diminishes its haste return the more haste you have, the more likely you are to clip autoshots and the haste benefits become less and less of a positive return to your dps. Ie instead of adding 15% dps as it should for those 8 seconds it effectively adds in realistic terms with human error about 3% for those ten seconds.
The main issue is that a hunter has to catch the proc perfectly to make the most of it, where as a rogue just has to keep spamming his normal rotations and make sure he isn't wasting energy/combo points.
Hanos, that math is flawed. How to explain... The problem is the post you copied isn't written very well, but I'll get to the point as best I can.
In that post, a 2.9 speed bow is shown to have a 2.1 attack speed with a 15% quiver and 20% from Serpent's Swiftness. This is correct. However, at that point in the post, Steady Shot is still shown to have a 1.3 second cast time, and this is incorrect.
Put it another way. I have a Sunfury Bow, 2.9 base speed. Here's a little chart.
Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix
Base Cast Time +Quiver Haste +SS Haste +DST Haste
Autoshot 2.9 2.52 2.10 1.60
Steady 1.5 1.30 1.08 0.82
Thus, you can see, with Quiver, Serpent Swiftness, and Dragonspine up, the gap between Steady and Autoshot is a healthy (as such) 0.8 seconds... plenty enough time to fit an autoshot "cast time" in.
There are a few arguments that come in here.
1) What if Imp AotH procs alongside DST? Then your autoshot cast time is below 1.5 seconds, shorter than the GCD, forcing you to clip/clobber autoshots?
Answer to this is simple. Don't spec Imp AotH.
1a) If you don't spec Imp AotH, aren't you losing all the dps that DST gives you?
Also a simple answer; DST procs off all shots, Imp AotH only procs off Autoshot. DST gives 31% haste, Imp AotH gives 15%. In my experience, DST is a much better buff than Imp AotH is... Speccing out of Imp AotH allows you to keep Hawk up for the RAP without worrying about rotations. And you can funnel those points into Endurance for greater survivability.
2) What if your ping/lag/connection is too slow, or your computer's framerate is too slow?
My connection is great and so is my computer, these problems do not apply to me. Your mileage may vary.
EDIT: All theorycrafting aside, honestly. I have a DST and am BM spec, and have consistently been able to keep up a 1.6 second autoshot/steadyshot cast cycle, with Kill Commands.
By far the most prevalent argument is, of course, that we reach the Haste% cap easily. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be allowed to find more efficient ways to reach that cap, so that we might improve our personal dps.
Originally Posted by Rhius
This has allowed me to take points from that talent and place them in Endurance
Huh?
I understand the jist of your argument, but in this case, you used an item to replace your need for Imp AoTH, and then took a talent that's going to net you somewhere around 400 more health.
Aside from probably very rare cases where that 400 health would have prevented you from dying, how does that improve your personal DPS?
Couldn't you have achieved similar results by keeping Imp AoTH, and using the netherwing Commander's Badge trinket (+45 stam)? Then, you'd have an added bonus of being able to switch trinkets on the fly depending on whether you want another dps trinket, or the survivability bonus where needed. The net change is about the same, meanwhile, someone else in your raid who could have used the DST would have gotten it.
I understand the jist of your argument, but in this case, you used an item to replace your need for Imp AoTH, and then took a talent that's going to net you somewhere around 400 more health.
Aside from probably very rare cases where that 400 health would have prevented you from dying, how does that improve your personal DPS?
Couldn't you have achieved similar results by keeping Imp AoTH, and using the netherwing Commander's Badge trinket (+45 stam)? Then, you'd have an added bonus of being able to switch trinkets on the fly depending on whether you want another dps trinket, or the survivability bonus where needed. The net change is about the same, meanwhile, someone else in your raid who could have used the DST would have gotten it.
Having extra points in Endurance is the LEAST benefit that results from having DST. I simply mentioned it along with the rest. Namely, the reason for having DST over imp AotH is that DST provides double the haste and procs more often. I thought I said that already >.>
Additionally, I look ahead to a time (though I didn't have any idea about it back when I actually GOT my DST) when I can equip several pieces of Black Temple +haste gear, switch to MM, and use DST for a nice 1:1 cycle instead of the standard, more difficult 1:1.5 cycle.
This addon measures flurry up time, with an easy bit of lua editing you can have it measure up time for any effect you wish.
specifically the lines:
if (arg1 == "You gain Flurry.") then
if (arg1 == "Flurry fades from you.") then
Can hope the maker of this addon builds up on it and improves it to include other user defined auras through a gui/at the same time. It makes analyzing procs without cooldowns so much easier than the standard "ppm" that doesn't count back to back procs and the by hand log parsing.
This addon measures flurry up time, with an easy bit of lua editing you can have it measure up time for any effect you wish.
specifically the lines:
if (arg1 == "You gain Flurry.") then
if (arg1 == "Flurry fades from you.") then
Can hope the maker of this addon builds up on it and improves it to include other user defined auras through a gui/at the same time. It makes analyzing procs without cooldowns so much easier than the standard "ppm" that doesn't count back to back procs and the by hand log parsing.
I'll pass the information along, the person who made the mod is in the same raidgroup as me and we've discussed this as a tool for fury warrior theorycrafting, the thought to use it for other effects never struck me at least. *grins foolishly*
Namely, the reason for having DST over imp AotH is that DST provides double the haste and procs more often. I thought I said that already >.>
The obvious follow up question to that is:
Is using DST with no Imp AotH better than using Imp AotH + another trinket, such as Tsunami Talisman?
Say you have 33% crit, you have the Sunfury, are BM spec, thus fire two shots every 2.1 sec, that's three shots every 3.15 sec. Tsunami will proc after at most 31.5 sec (time it takes for 10 crits). You then get 340 AP for 10 sec, and a 45 sec cooldown. We can assume, for the sake of simplification, that over time, it will average out to about 1 proc every minute. That makes an average of 56.7 AP a second. I'm ignoring Imp Hawk procs for right now, as they will decrease the time it takes to proc Tsunami.
So, we get a constant 38 crit, 10 hit, and 56.7 AP. I'll ignore the contribution to Pet DPS because I'm not sure how to figure it out (though if someone can, I would be most appreciative). Doing a bit of hand waving, I'll convert the 38 crit and 56.7 AP into raid DPS. Specifically, from my WWS logs I can estimate that 1 DPS increase increase on my character sheet will translate into a 2 DPS raid damage increase (ignoring my pet's damage). 38 crit translates roughly into 76 ap, 10 hit into 20 ap, and 152.7 AP will translate into 15.27 DPS on the character sheet, into 30.54 DPS in a raid. If we subtract out the 40 AP on DST, we get 22.54 DPS.
So Tsunami is getting us 22.54 DPS as compared to DST. Is the difference between using a DST or using Imp Hawk going to give us a bigger DPS increase than the 22.54 DPS we could be getting from the Tsunami Talisman instead? On Wowhead people are reporting DST as 1.5 procs per minute. Again, from looking at WWS logs for our hunters, we end up averaging about 1.5 procs per minute on Imp Hawk too. I admit, the PPM aren't very accurately computed, and if someone has better figures, I'd be glad to use those instead.
In any case, assuming they both proc about the same, then 1.5 times a minute we get a haste proc. In one case, it's 15%, we go from two shots in 2.1 sec to two in 1.83 sec for 12 sec. In the other, two in 1.62 sec for 10. Taking my DPS from the same log, 780, we can figure that in 2.1 sec I'm normally doing 1638 damage. Same amount of damage in 1.83 sec is 895 DPS, in 1.62 is 1011 DPS. So, for Imp Hawk we get 18 seconds a minute of 115 extra DPS, or 34.5 DPS. For DST, we get 12 sec a minute of 231 extra DPS, or 46.2 DPS. The difference of using a DST over Imp Hawk is less than 12 DPS. Say DST procs more often, like 2 PPM, that's 16 sec, 61.6 DPS total, 27.1 DPS more for DST than for Imp Hawk.
So it depends on proc rate. At 1.5 procs per minute for both Hawk and DST, Tsunami + Imp Hawk is the winning combination. If the proc rate for DST is higher than 1.5, or the proc rate for Imp Hawk is lower, than DST may well be the better choice. Hmm, guess I need to find more accurate proc rates for them.
Talents are not always better than gear. I could get 3% hit from speccing up to Surefooted in survival, but I'm not about to ditch 54 hit rating to do it.
Why not use IAotH and DST? Ditching IAotH when you get a DST is like a rogue not using SnD because Dragonspine is about the same amount of haste. Haste will never be a negative for hunters, just less positive when stacked in extremes. The procs are not attached so its entirely conceivable that one is up while the other is not, and both being haste procs having one would increase the chance of the other procing, along with the dps increase of the haste itself.
So why not use Tsunami + DST and still leave IAOTH unspecced, even assuming your assumptons are all worth taking at face value?
Because instead you could use Tsunami + Bloodlust Brooch + Imp AotH, for example.
But my general question was, is DST + some trinket better than Imp AotH + some trinket + some other trinket? From what I can figure out, Imp AotH + Trinket + Trinket is better than just DST + Trinket; the loss of Imp AotH (which you need to give up to make DST viable) is enough to make DST not worth using. But it depends on the respective proc rates. If DST procs sufficiently more than Imp Hawk, it may very well be worth giving up those talents and the trinket slot.
Talents are not always better than gear. I could get 3% hit from speccing up to Surefooted in survival, but I'm not about to ditch 54 hit rating to do it.
Then there's the difference between me and you. I view Surefooted as an enabler. Getting surefooted means that I can go after different gear. Effectively, it buys me item points equivalent to 54 hit raiting that I can convert from hit into agility or ap or crit.
Originally Posted by senior toasted bread
Why not use IAotH and DST? Ditching IAotH when you get a DST is like a rogue not using SnD because Dragonspine is about the same amount of haste. Haste will never be a negative for hunters, just less positive when stacked in extremes. The procs are not attached so its entirely conceivable that one is up while the other is not, and both being haste procs having one would increase the chance of the other procing, along with the dps increase of the haste itself.
Your rogue comparison is incorrect. Rogues don't need to weave their specials in between auto-attacks, thus they are not hindered by a change in their auto-attack timer. Hunters are limited by reaction time, latency, and the GCD in how fast we can weave shots in.
Regardless, I went with Rhius' statement that you should have Imp AotH, or DST, but that having both would cause problems. You bring up an interesting point. If you do have both, you have 4 possible cases at any given time:
1) no proc is up, you're just DPSing like normal
2) Imp AotH is up, you're DPSing like normal with a DPS boost due to haste
3) DST is up, you're DPSing like normal with a DPS boost due to haste
4) Imp AotH and DST is up, your auto-attack is faster than the GCD, so you're either pushing back all your auto-shots and thus voiding the haste benefit of Imp AotH, or you're changing to a different cycle for the duration of the overlap.
That 4th scenario is the one Rhius was looking to avoid. It's beyond me to model their interaction to see how often you have 1 up but not the other, and how often you have both up. However, what if you just stick to your normal cycle? When they're both up, you end up pushing back your auto-shots to beyond the GCD, thus nullifying the benefit of the Imp Hawk proc. Maybe you don't care? Imp Hawk becomes a haste buff you're happy to have between DST procs. And if Hawk procs during a DST proc, it's wasted, but oh well.
This addon measures flurry up time, with an easy bit of lua editing you can have it measure up time for any effect you wish.
specifically the lines:
if (arg1 == "You gain Flurry.") then
if (arg1 == "Flurry fades from you.") then
Can hope the maker of this addon builds up on it and improves it to include other user defined auras through a gui/at the same time. It makes analyzing procs without cooldowns so much easier than the standard "ppm" that doesn't count back to back procs and the by hand log parsing.
Currently messing about with this to turn it into an Expose Weakness monitor and perhaps a hunters mark 'rap counter'. The EW uptime is working at the moment but I'm no wow addon genius, yet.
A problem I've found is that the combat log is bugged and has a limited range when recording mob debuffs. This is somewhat of a deal breaker for this. Is there a better way to check for mob auras other than parsing the combat log?
Currently messing about with this to turn it into an Expose Weakness monitor and perhaps a hunters mark 'rap counter'. The EW uptime is working at the moment but I'm no wow addon genius, yet.
A problem I've found is that the combat log is bugged and has a limited range when recording mob debuffs. This is somewhat of a deal breaker for this. Is there a better way to check for mob auras other than parsing the combat log?
Could you sync with melee and use the "hidden" channels that ctra etc use to pass the information to hunters who are running the mod?
Because instead you could use Tsunami + Bloodlust Brooch + Imp AotH, for example.
But my general question was, is DST + some trinket better than Imp AotH + some trinket + some other trinket? From what I can figure out, Imp AotH + Trinket + Trinket is better than just DST + Trinket; the loss of Imp AotH (which you need to give up to make DST viable) is enough to make DST not worth using. But it depends on the respective proc rates. If DST procs sufficiently more than Imp Hawk, it may very well be worth giving up those talents and the trinket slot.
Emphasis mine.
You are totally wrong, dropping IAotH will be a net dps loss. You act like the 2 procs are tied together somehow and will only proc at the same time. Sometimes they will proc at the same time and IAotH will be wasted, however when IAotH procs any other time its +dps, a lot more than a little more stamina will get you.
You are totally wrong, dropping IAotH will be a net dps loss. You act like the 2 procs are tied together somehow and will only proc at the same time. Sometimes they will proc at the same time and IAotH will be wasted, however when IAotH procs any other time its +dps, a lot more than a little more stamina will get you.
I agree with you. I took Rhius post that you should get a DST and spec out of IAotH, and just ran with it to see where it would take me.
You're suggesting using both IAotH and DST, figuring that it will mean more haste procs are up for a damage boost, and at worst case you waste an IAotH proc when it overlaps with DST's.
So then here's the next question as I see it: Does using IAotH + DST, assuming you stick to the same cycle and delay your auto-shots to 1.6 sec when they're both up, net you higher DPS than using IAotH + Tsunami?
For this, we would assume that our normal auto-shot speed is 2.1 sec, our auto-shot speed with Hawk up is 1.83 sec, our auto-shot speed with DST up is 1.6 sec, our auto-shot speed with Hawk & DST up is also 1.6 sec. And then we'd need to figure out how often Hawk would be up, how often DST would be up, and how often they would overlap (and thus subtract from the Hawk uptime). I'm not sure how to do that last part yet.
We killed this bastard for the 20th time last night and still have seen just one DST. Its quite vexing. We have also only seen one Tsunami Talisman and no Rogue or Warrior class trinkets from TK.
We killed this bastard for the 20th time last night and still have seen just one DST. Its quite vexing. We have also only seen one Tsunami Talisman and no Rogue or Warrior class trinkets from TK.
Grr.
I had 5 Tsunamis and 1 DST so far. Really annoying.
I just received this trinket yesterday, and so far I'm impressed with it. We did VR just after we finished Gruul, so forgive me if my experiences with the trinket are slightly incomplete.
First impressions:
1. It procs a lot. I didn't have Procwatch loaded or anything similar, but it definitely does proc and stay up for a remarkable amount of time. The effect is fairly obvious, looks a lot like Crusader proccing; crossed swords with a silvery halo around you.
2. When I stacked haste (Rapid Fire/Abacus of Violent Odds/Dragonspine/Imp Hawk) it was certainly overkill, as my haste was far far faster than the GCD would allow me to weave shots. I'll probably replace my Abacus with Romulo's Vial (Never drops for me QQ) or the badge trinket to help mitigate this. Despite this, I would recommend it for any hunter or melee dps. The trinket is massively terrific.
EDIT: Er, not to boast or anything, but I see a lot of people whining about the drop rate. We must be lucky then, because (just a quick guesstimate) out of the last 15 or so Gruuls, we've had 4 drop. First two went to warriors, third to our enhance shaman, and fourth to me (hunter). However, we have never seen the caster sword nor the shield. Our casters are screaming bloody murder over this ;-).
This addon measures flurry up time, with an easy bit of lua editing you can have it measure up time for any effect you wish.
specifically the lines:
if (arg1 == "You gain Flurry.") then
if (arg1 == "Flurry fades from you.") then
Can hope the maker of this addon builds up on it and improves it to include other user defined auras through a gui/at the same time. It makes analyzing procs without cooldowns so much easier than the standard "ppm" that doesn't count back to back procs and the by hand log parsing.
That might be difficult. The buff from Dragonspine is simply called "Haste" and loads of other buffs are named similarly, such as the Use on Abacus of Violent Odds.
07/20/07, 3:16 PM
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