• constantius

Complete digression from discussion of who deserves it more ... and ...

I'm curious about the following:

1) Is the DST a reasonable TPS increaser for a tank on progression fights in BT/HS?
2) If so, what sort of threat increase can I expect from a tank using DST?
3) Is DST more threat than, say, Romulo's Poison Vial (for the +hit)?
4) Even as a TPS increaser, it is *enough* of one to justify taking it from a rogue/fury warrior/enh shaman?

 

Telani

It is a threat increase, but generally in BT/Hyjal it's not threat that is the issue, it's survivability. There have been many times that our tank has only lived because he burned dual avoidance trinkets. With proper use of misdirect and a tank that knows how to generate threat, it shouldn't be necessary.

My opinion may be biased by the fact that I am a rogue, but I feel it should go to a DPS class over a tank.

 

Hidden

If you think about it, every damage item increases a tank's aggro while reducing survivability.
I don't think DST is much different from other such items. The only reason why a tank could want it is because it is an awesome trinket for damagedealing and so it may be worth it to use it on some farm-status encounters and trash mobs to maintain aggro more easily. But that doesn't give him the right to take this awesome DPS trinket from damage-dealers in my opinion.
As you can see in my Armory, I have a DST and I'd call it my best item besides Dragonstrike and Tsunami Talisman which have great proccs as well. It's so awesome that I even use it in the arena as 2h MS because it gives such a great boost to DPS in fights against Healer/DD teams.

 

• constantius

Has anyone done any analysis on trinkets for tanks, to see which give the most TPS increase when used properly?

Offhand, the following trinkets are ones which would technically or realistically increase TPS:

- DST (AP, haste proc)
- Tsunami Talisman (hit, crit, AP proc)
- Bloodlust Brooch
- Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker (shield block rating)
- Styleen's Impeding Scarab (shield block rating)
- Abacus of Violent Odds (AP, haste use effect)
- Hourglass of the Unraveller (crit, AP use effect)

I know this doesn't really belong in this thread, except as a comparison between the Trophy and the others; just curious if anyone can point me to another thread or website where such analysis has been done from a *tanking* perspective. Losing mitigation to gain threat is a common thing to do ... I want to see if DST actually is the best such trinket to use in a situation like that.

 

Hidden

Is it? From what I've heard I wouldn't even consider reducing mitigation for fights like Mother Shahraz.
Compare the Dragonspine Trophy to Drake Fang Talisman, they're both very good damage trinkets and obviously increase threat as well but I never ever heard about tanks going for either of them. You can only use those items for bosses you already have on farm status since it's too much of a risk reducing your mitigation on new bosses. And why should you take an item you use on farm runs over someone who would use it in every encounter he's going to fight in BC?

Edit: I just saw you're a priest, you know that Dragonspine Trophy is currently the best Fury Warrior/Rogue/Enhancement Shaman/Hunter Trinket ingame? It's not one of many options you can take as a melee, it's simply the best and on the same level as the Illidan Trinket, in front of Tsunami Talisman in SSC, the class trinkets, and the Ignore Armor proccing trinket from BT which would by the way be the only good alternatives you could use.
If a tank had gotten that trinket while I was in raid and not having it, I'd have probably /gquitted.

 

• constantius

Yes, I know how good the trinket is for rogues/enh shamans/ret paladins/fury warriors. I'm fully aware that it's the most important upgrade they can get from the content we're farming.

What I really need is some concrete analysis that says "look, this thing is good ... but it'll increase your threat by 4.2+/-0.2%, whereas Bloodlust Brooch is 3.9+/-0.1%", so I can look at it and concretely show our tank why he's being silly.

 

Lambach

Threat from gnome autoblocker is better...man I dont wanna sort through and find it. Check the warrior tps thread. Im pretty sure you can find a block conversion in there. Remind your tank that thet ppm on this will suck since he is only using one weapon instead of DW.

 

Vohbo

I'm not so sure of that, as a tank you use a very fast weapon and spam attack skills every global cooldown without ever stopping.
I'm also sure that an Autoblocker will not increase your threat output significantly over this. 59 block value, on target with 0 armor and with a 15 % crit chance is about 40 tps only, and that includes using its activated effect every cooldown.
I believe that I need about 3 additional heroic strikes per minute to outdo this threat generation with my current weapon (King's Defender).
Not to mention additional attacks would provide more rage and WF totem procs.

 

Teez

As a matter of fact, the DFT was simply fantastic for tanking. In anything remotely threat sensitive the then-2%-hit with 56ap was godly - not to mention the 1% dodge at 60 to boot. Pairing DFT with Styleen's was something I began doing much more frequently once we had established that random burst on an encounter wasn't as much of an issue as TPS; in other cases it was LGG+Styleen's back then. The DFT was by far one of the best itemized items for Warriors period at the time imo - both from a DPS standpoint and from a tanking standpoint. Hell, I still use it on occasion.

DST on the other hand I would hardly ever use for tanking - I'd love one for the encounters where I get to DPS, but I couldn't see myself ever equipping it on any high end encounter to tank. No defensive stats at all, and feeling fairly comfortable with my TPS vs. our DPSers DPS output there's just not reason of equipping it, ever. I'd probably equip my DFT over it.

Warrior - Shaman - Priest

 

Hozz

I used a DFT for tanking too. People were pissed at me for taking it. This was when Horde had no Salv (or Tranquil air even...lol?). Hit was really hard to come by on tank gear, no sockets back then of course. 56 AP on a trinket is still nothing to sneeze at, at 70. And topping all of that off, it had dodge too. It was an awesome tank trinket. Its still a good trinket.

I think the DST is also a good threat trinket. There is no way the auto-blocker is more threat. Wars throw an instant every GCD when tanking, the uptime on it would be good.

 

Hidden

DFT is a good example of my statement that every damage trinket increases Threat as well, it had 1% Dodge but that's not nearly as much as compareable tank trinkets. As Alliance I don't think it was necessary back then to use it as an aggro trinket and with BC I don't think pure damage trinkets are necessary for maintaining aggro at all.

 

Kaber

Actually that is incorrect about hunters. If I am calculating this out correctly, averaging 1 shot per second (counting both specials and white damage), we will proc this item a minimum of 4.8 times per minute (some will be reprocs, of course). A MM is allowed to move into a 1:1 shot rotation during haste procs and pick up Improved Aspect of the Hawk to supplement the haste, which gives him much greater mana longevity and higher sustained DPS. A BM hunter will occasionally clip shots when both the DST and iAotH are up, however it is still a theoretical minimum gain in total DPS of 8%. If my DPS modeling is correct, a MM build with the DST can over-take a BM for the title of Top End-game DPS. [Hunter] Haste Rating analysis for end-game builds

As a side note, I am waiting on pet Glancing blows to be fixed to rework the numbers and MM DPS was being affected slightly upwards; however, I do not believe those factors could have yielded that level of difference in those builds.

My sentiments exactly. Which is precisely why this whole "all melee loot belongs to rogues and warriors" mentality is so mind numbingly silly to me, and it has been around since the game began. I mean, I can understand druids not getting this, because most of the damage has nothing to do with white hits, but when its the best trinket in the game for 4 different DPSers laying claim to it being better for one over another is ludicrous.

Just snipped that out of someone's analysis: hunters will never, ever, EVER use haste potions. They are on the same cooldown as our mana potions (which we are requried to chain chug every 2 minutes), and as such any analysis you attempt with haste pots in the mix is going to be completely biased and totally off-base.

 

Mezzlock

Will be 'interesting' to see the difference between DST and Madness of the betrayer, now that they nerf melee haste rating(if it goes live)

www.in-excelsis.net

 

Hozz

Does Madness have a hidden CD like Tsunami?

 

Sapp

It'll go live, stuff like this always does.

It's really annoying when fundamental and significant changes such as this are slipped in without mentioning them in the patch notes.

In case people don't know what we're talking about, Haste rating on PTR was standardized. Melee haste rating was dropped from 10.5 rating:% to 15.7 rating:%, and Spell Haste was boosted from 21 rating:% to 15.7 rating:%.

Dragonspine is now worth ~20% haste rather than ~30% haste, for example.

 

Mezzlock

Indeed, but why did they do that? haste rating for melee vs casters isn't the same.

Casters have their all of their spells with cast time affected by haste, destro locks and mages have atleast 80% of their damage affected by haste, while melee only have their white damage affected (true, warriors gets rage and rogues procs more combat potency, but that has nothing to do with it)

anyway; I just don't see the reason behind this nerf, they just recently "hotfixed" WF, wasn't that nerf enough?

Well, maybe, if we're lucky, it was a bug in the PTR that when they changed spell haste melee haste was also changed to the same value.

www.in-excelsis.net

 

Brissa

Melee haste was considered overpowered while spell haste was considered underpowered by most players, at least thats what I have heard.
Isnt that enough?

Besides casters have to pay for their spell haste in mana while the melee haste had no downside.

 

jusion

In addition, items like Dragonspine and the proc on Azzinoth were making rogues do amounts of DPS that I'm sure made the Devs uncomfortable (Furi did 3090 DPS on Anetheron while the highest caster was like 1300).

 

Mezzlock

You both have valid points, but it's a pretty major change, and not even mentioning it in the patch notes makes me kinda sad, but then again, it's just a drop in the sea among all the nerfs we've got.

I don't know what to think really, im guessing im just upset by the fact that much of my gear i've gathered in bt/hyjal now gets hit by a major nerfbat..

And really, if this change is indeed to fix warglaives and DST, instead of nerfing every armor piece with haste on it, why not change those two items instead?

www.in-excelsis.net

 

jusion

Blizzard doesn't like it when certain item mechanics can break the game if stacked or itemized right. Example: Instead of nerfing the barman shanker and a couple of other slow weapons, then normalized everything.

 

Hozz

Without actually having the Warglaives, allow me to propose the obvious, that what is overpowered is the proc rate, not the haste % of the proc.

I am stunned Blizzard would nerf haste rating to haste conversions before nerfing a couple of overpowered procs in the DST and the Warglaives.

 

Cos-

Or this is the first act in a devious bait and switch where the rating change is reverted and the warglaives and dst are nerfed to a resounding "OH MAN at least haste got put back how it was." Either way, further conversation on this fact is useless until blue chimes in with a confirmation. Sorry for crapping up the thread further.

 

Myul

Stop kidding, the benefits of haste was a way to high for physical dps, only by checking the benefits of dst for hunters (10-15%) and melees (5-10%) dmg increasement, don't even think of twinblades..

 

• Aldriana

Incorrect. The power of DST and Twinblades was way too high. Haste as a bonus on the items that just had a passive +haste on them was fine; these items were generally of appropriate power for where they were obtained. Now, with the haste nerf, most of the BT haste item drops are inferior to the drops in SSC and TK for the same slot, which makes them sort of a waste of time.

I freely agree that DST was probably in need of a nerf. But I do think it would make more sense to nerf DST (give it an internal cooldown or whatever) rather than nerfing haste rating in general.

 

Cashin

Not that Furi will lose that much dps from a nerf to bring him back into line with the casters. In that same situation with a nerfed haste rating, he'd probably still be doing 2500-2600. Which is still kind of crazy.