Hydross + Shield Block - Page 18

arioch · 04/27/07, 2:50 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Well, there needs to be some sort of buffer or you'd see a lot of double-spawn wipes if he juked even a little while being pulled across the line.

He did that quite a lot for us regardless.

Savos · 04/29/07, 2:42 PM

A bit of a slight side topic.

I see a lot of reference to 490 defense with 365 (buffed) resist to X as the goal.

While this is a good goal to have and such, is it really needed? Quite a bit of discussion was had regarding blocking/non-blocking of various elemental attacks and such and my question is does defense actually apply in such cases as this with non-blockable attacks (a la Hydross) for reducing critical hits? Not sure if this has ever been tested or not, though it is entirely possible to just do 490/365.

I don't think it was ever possible to do this on say, Geddon or something to test in the 1.0 game, but it is clear from Gurgthock that resistance doesn't create anti-crit by itself.

My guess is that defense does work but would like to hear if there is anything to this as we (SF) are going to try for the first forrays into SSC and possibly will not have the magic 490/365 right off.

Pyrul · 04/29/07, 5:01 PM

This is a fraps of me 250% nature tanking Hydross. It's not fancy by any means and doesn't have any music, but I made the resolution high enough so numbers and my combat log were visible.

http://files.filefront.com//;7376748;;/

Note the lack of resist totem at 30%ish and the amount of 10k hits I received, and the fact that even those numbers are survivable. For that kill I have 473 Defense, 369 buffed resist and 19906 HP. I was unable to reach 490 def unless I sacrificed a larger amount of HP than I wanted to, and am glad I did because at one point I hit 515 HP

. Also note that I did get crit once (I think it's in this) but only for 10k. Someone earlier in this thread mentioned that the chance of a crit on a 25% resist was somewhere in the ballpark of .05%. So I took my chances.

Again, this is not a video promoting myself or my guild, simply informative to show numbers in real-time.

Edit: If the mods don't want people/me posting videos then of course feel free to infract/delete/edit as you see fit.

Edit #2: The streaming quality is terrible, fully download if you are going to watch.

PsiVen · 04/30/07, 2:32 AM

What in the hell?

I clicked that link and got some graphic gay sex. Clicked the second time and it was a Hydross video...
Filefront streaming needs to work out some serious bugs. You're right, best to just download it

Quigon · 04/30/07, 5:27 AM

Yeah, I've heard of that bug. What happened was you clicked on one of your gay sex bookmarks by mistake.
Seriously though, try noscript out and say no to filefront streaming.
http://noscript.net/

Trex · 05/01/07, 8:05 PM

Does anyone have a good breakdown for recommended FrR with the 2.1 patch in mind?(Flasks no longer giving 30 D)

My current setup has me at about 12K base health, 364 FrR, and 480 D or so (Flasked).

It may not be AS critical with the 250 Nature strat no longer being used, but with about 30-40 pieces of gear to play with FrR and Defense I'm trying to figure out what the best combination is.

Quigon · 05/01/07, 8:09 PM

The more important question is if the nerf to his damage allows for a greater than 15k crit when at 100%. Cause currently its around 20kish if I remember correctly, and that is indeed a wipe.

Nekali · 05/03/07, 6:25 PM

Today our tank was crit by Hydross when we believed him to be uncrittable.

Screenshot of Recap.

472 defense + 23 resilience on tankgear + 24 resilience from http://www.thottbot.com/i28356

Our first though was that the Libram buff wore off, but the paladin seemed very, very certain that it was up at all times and at the moment of death.

Is there any evidence that resilience and defense do indeed stack as seems to be assumed?

• Hamlet · 05/03/07, 6:34 PM

Originally Posted by Quigon

The more important question is if the nerf to his damage allows for a greater than 15k crit when at 100%. Cause currently its around 20kish if I remember correctly, and that is indeed a wipe.

Even 15k is kind of sketchy, really. Unless they're nerfing his melee output really hard, I think most tanks will simply have to choose max def over max resist for the fight.

This is exactly the reason mob spells can't crit. Combining the resist mechanic with the crit mechanic means that you have to choose between really low average damage, or unsurvivable spikes.

• Hamlet · 05/03/07, 6:41 PM

Originally Posted by Savos

A bit of a slight side topic.

I see a lot of reference to 490 defense with 365 (buffed) resist to X as the goal.

While this is a good goal to have and such, is it really needed? Quite a bit of discussion was had regarding blocking/non-blocking of various elemental attacks and such and my question is does defense actually apply in such cases as this with non-blockable attacks (a la Hydross) for reducing critical hits? Not sure if this has ever been tested or not, though it is entirely possible to just do 490/365.

I don't think it was ever possible to do this on say, Geddon or something to test in the 1.0 game, but it is clear from Gurgthock that resistance doesn't create anti-crit by itself.

My guess is that defense does work but would like to hear if there is anything to this as we (SF) are going to try for the first forrays into SSC and possibly will not have the magic 490/365 right off.

If your tank is not crit-immune, you're asking for a one-shot. I believe most people use Fortification to help with this right now.

As long as you have at least 244 resist, there is no chance of fully unresisted hit. Resist beyond this point returns outstanding mitigation, though.

• Hamlet · 05/03/07, 6:47 PM

I know there's been a bit of discussion of OT gear already, but I just want to ask a quick qeustion. We're trying to hastily gear up some more OT's to play with an AoE strat more at tonight's raid. Are TBC resist greens the standard fare here? Or is there something else most people go for (I'm assuming people aren't getting the Nether-requiring TBC plate for their offtanks)? We also have a lot of Frozen Runes still sitting around.

Quigon · 05/03/07, 8:25 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Even 15k is kind of sketchy, really. Unless they're nerfing his melee output really hard, I think most tanks will simply have to choose max def over max resist for the fight.

This is exactly the reason mob spells can't crit. Combining the resist mechanic with the crit mechanic means that you have to choose between really low average damage, or unsurvivable spikes.

The devs need to add about 20 defense rating to the crafted NR gear to compensate for the changes to flasks IMO.

Savena · 05/04/07, 1:51 AM

Originally Posted by Quigon

The devs need to add about 20 defense rating to the crafted NR gear to compensate for the changes to flasks IMO.

I wouldn't say it's THAT difficult to cap NR and def together. I'll link an armory profile with 294 unbuffed NR and 490 def, although I hate using armory to show gear because it changes so often.

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/?#...heroc&n=Savena

Mostly crafted NR and Karazhan gear. There's nothing really unusual or difficult to obtain in that profile other than maybe the cloak and the crossbow. Neither of those is key to the gear. You can find greens with comparable stats to the cloak, or you can even go with a Green Dragonskin Cloak. I could replace the crossbow and NR kits with a single green of nature protection, and probably gain a few hundred HP and that last point of NR like that. There's a bit of wiggle room with the defense, as it's 490 unbuffed and you can make up a bit with flasks, even after they get changed. There are also a number of pieces of gear that aren't the best for their slots in this profile, bracers could be replaced with Green Fortress, ring with Impenetrable Defenses, one of the trinkets with a Scarab of Displacement.

The biggest weakness is probably the low HP, but it's plenty for tanking in the 100% phase. Even in his current form, it's definitely viable to kill Hydross without ever having him go into the 250% phase for frost or nature, the patch should make this even easier with reduced add HP. Stamina on the crafted NR stuff is getting a huge boost, as well.

I wouldn't complain about further buffs to the NR set, but more buffs are hardly required to put together a passable set of resist gear. Any guild working on Hydross should have tanks with easy access to all of the things necessary to do it.

Edit: Can't comment as easily on the FrR set as I don't have one made, but I can't imagine it would be any more difficult to get similar stats with it.

Abraham · 05/14/07, 3:16 AM

We tried Hydross yesterday for several attempts (we were 4 hours in ssc) and got him to 50% after 6,5 minutes in our best try. It was our second day trying him.

Regardless of our DPS that still needs to improve a bit to kill this encounter in time, there were several issues with the partially resists on our tanks. Both tanks had 365-375 resist, we even tried it with 450 resist upwards (with less defense, ofc), but the last 1,5 hours ist happened EVERY fucking try that our tanks got oneshotted - partially with crits, btu thats not the problem because we can prevent this - but nearly every time there were 2 hits within 1 second, both of them like "10k (2k resisted)" "8k (4k resisted)". With our tank having ~15-16k HP (buffed) and only 2 healers on him this is his sure dead (we were only 6 healers altogether).

We don't know why this can happen so oft, I thought there's only a very small chance to get a 75% hit (while these hits are neither 0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, nor fully resisted - I can clearly remember a strike with ~10,2k (1,885 resisted)...), so why does Hydross nearly oneshot our tanks every single attempt? In addition this only happened at the last 1,5 hours of attempts, before that we never had problems with our tanks simply being nuked away...

Thanks for your help in advance.

Zwink · 05/14/07, 3:49 AM

Hydross with 6 healers is a bit sketchy. Maybe if everyone of them had a Shadow Priest it would be possible? We've never done it with less than 8 and even then some of the healers are stretched for mana while chugging mana potions. 2 Healers on the Main Tank is not nearly enough, even if the Mark is low.

I'm curious about how few healers guilds have killed him with and if you had few healers, what strategy for killing adds did you use?

Abraham · 05/14/07, 4:38 AM

Well, the healing itself was no issue, we had 2 healers for the group, 1 healer for every add-tank and 2 for the mt. The add-tanks had 230 resist to both and a shaman in their group, meaning they got effectively 300 resist, so they didn't get very much damage - their healers were able to throw some healings on the mt aswell. Our problem was that the tank was suddenly hit very hard very often - because there were sometimes 2 hits within 0,4 sek (!) with both ~25% resist (but not exactly 25%). First we thought it could be just bad luck with those strikes coming through with nearly full power and perhaps Hydross parried at the same time, so there were 2 fast strikes - but then the next attemps the same thing happened over and over again. Tank just died with noone being able to do anything against it. I don't think that any amount of healers could be able to heal a tank going down from 100% to 0% in 0,4 seconds (perhaps if you rotate that every 0,3 sec a heal is coming on the tank, not taking care of overheal).

Now i want to ask the other guilds around here - has anybody else made similar experience? Or am I missing something?

Arnive · 05/14/07, 4:54 AM

Originally Posted by Abraham

Well, the healing itself was no issue, we had 2 healers for the group, 1 healer for every add-tank and 2 for the mt.
...
I don't think that any amount of healers could be able to heal a tank going down from 100% to 0% in 0,4 seconds (perhaps if you rotate that every 0,3 sec a heal is coming on the tank, not taking care of overheal).

Now i want to ask the other guilds around here - has anybody else made similar experience? Or am I missing something?

At the moment you really do need more than 2 healers on the MT by the time you get to 100%. You'll get streaks of resists / avoidance that will make it seem like fewer healers are needed, but it's the spikes that kill you, and additional healers constantly casting help mitigate this.

I've never done the fight with less than 8 healers, 3 of which are permanently on the MTs and 3 more of which switch once the adds start dying off.

Skulli · 05/14/07, 7:31 AM

AOE the adds, when the adds die fast then you can use those healers for mt at higher mark. (Adds should be dead at 50%). But we also have 8 healers for hydross.
And about crit immune thing, we are going with def only and not using res-items.

Annariu · 05/15/07, 8:08 AM

Can't say that it's doable with less than 8 healers, but i have never done it with less, it seems close to impossible with less, seing that there is a limit to how fast you can burn down the adds, and just 2 healers on the tank with the 50 % mark closing in, maybe even ticking in for a few secs, is very very fishy to say the least.

Dawme · 05/15/07, 8:11 AM

We already did it with 7 but yeah, 8 is definitively the way to go.

Andrise · 05/15/07, 8:17 AM

Originally Posted by Nekali

Today our tank was crit by Hydross when we believed him to be uncrittable.

Screenshot of Recap.

472 defense + 23 resilience on tankgear + 24 resilience from http://www.thottbot.com/i28356

Our first though was that the Libram buff wore off, but the paladin seemed very, very certain that it was up at all times and at the moment of death.

Is there any evidence that resilience and defense do indeed stack as seems to be assumed?

It was likely a lag issue with the buff being refreshed, the same way people get crushed while spamming Shield Block and then started rumors about needing 25% base block to be crush immune.

Thessaly · 05/28/07, 10:18 AM

Does anyone have any recommendations for reducing the variability of where he switches? We've had to drag him almost to the bridge to get him poisoned on some rotations, but on others in the same fight, had him switch just after he goes over the flag line. It's the same the other direction, we've had a tank moving around on the console behind him with him still poisoned. Do we just need to call for the switch earlier to anticipate this variability?

Russta · 05/28/07, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by Thessaly

Does anyone have any recommendations for reducing the variability of where he switches?

I have no way to fix that but the way I set out reducing it's potential to be a problem was to stand on the flag line to his side then following him with strafe until he switched. Due to how unpredictable it is when he'll switch, standing too far back and waiting for him to come to you can be bad as you'll never get in range to grab hate if it's early. If you're too close and he's late, he'll run right through you risking disorientation and a missed opportunity.

I'm not saying all tanks just stand there and wait for him to present the perfect pick up opportunity each time but if you identify the biggest source of potential hate pulls on the opposing side, stay dynamic and following him closely yet always between the two, you'll eradicate a lot of the issues.

stampy · 05/29/07, 2:38 AM

Dont underestimate resilience for getting crit immune in a resist set... +15 resilience to chest is like 22.5 defense rating, and getting that last bit of crit immunity is well worth the 150 health.

If you are hurting more than that, look up high resilience gear like Gauntlets of the Iron Tower... thats equivalent to 59 defense rating and 54 stamina unenchanted.

Mem · 05/29/07, 7:50 AM

Originally Posted by Russta

I have no way to fix that but the way I set out reducing it's potential to be a problem was to stand on the flag line to his side then following him with strafe until he switched. Due to how unpredictable it is when he'll switch, standing too far back and waiting for him to come to you can be bad as you'll never get in range to grab hate if it's early. If you're too close and he's late, he'll run right through you risking disorientation and a missed opportunity.

I'm not saying all tanks just stand there and wait for him to present the perfect pick up opportunity each time but if you identify the biggest source of potential hate pulls on the opposing side, stay dynamic and following him closely yet always between the two, you'll eradicate a lot of the issues.

We killed him yesterday for the first time and as the frost tank I tend just to follow Hydross in order to minimize the danger of him getting out of range as well as getting unlucky parries (miss/parry strings caused at least two wipes on saturday). But having such a variable area where the switch happens is sometimes very...annoying.