A little background though to paint the picture. I am an Australian player raiding on a US Based server.

I've been playing this game since open beta, played the first day the realms when live (yes, both hours of it), played TBC beta and on almost every PTR available ... so its safe to say ive been around and know a thing or two.

I started out as a NElf Druid and as most guilds where that day joined the largest guild who pretty much invited everyone ... suffice to say, that guild fell apart around Nov/Dec after release. It was then I rolled a Troll Mage on Bronzebeard with some work friends.

I made friends with the guild leader of a large Horde guild and due to the shortage of Mages on the server, and 2 of the 3 first MC bosses requiring LOTS of decursing, I was asked to raid MC with them. This ended up getting my guildies jealous because I would come out with all these purples and they never had access to it ... so shortly before BWL came out I stopped raiding with that guild (working on Rag) and banded together with a bunch of smaller guilds to start running MC by ourselves.

Having soo much raiding experience already, I was able to lead this group (with the help of another experienced MC raider from another guild) through MC very quickly and eventually down Rag and work on BWL. It wasn't easy though, in fact, it was a logistical nightmare trying to organise soo many small groups.

Things started to go bad once we downed Razorgore after many weeks and was working on Vael (no one is surprised by that I think, if you remember how Vael was guild killers back in those days). Things went to hell, people stopped showing up etc.

This was also around the time the Oceanic servers first where being released and server transfers rumoured to be allowed soon. So many (not all) of our alliance of guilds banded together to form Endless Fury - with the idea to work on smaller raid content (ZG at that point) and prepare to transfer servers to an Oceanic realm when made available. No one was willing to re-roll as they loved their toons.

So we powered through ZG and AQ20 when it was eventually opened on our server, and the occasional nexus run to Onyxia for some gold (20 manning Ony was mad gold).

Aman'Thul (PvE server) was opened so we formed our guild on that server to save the name, saved our toons names and even some of us levelled alts on that server to get to know the community as we patiently waited to transfer there (Khaz'goroth had nightly queue's and wasn't, and still isn't, open for transfers).

They released the server transfer program, but had a problem on another server where someone transfered there with the AQ scepter and opened the gates before the server was mature enough for it ... which kind of wrecked the new servers natural progression. They put a 6 Month timer on new realms for transfers ... essentially screwing us out of transferring to an Oceanic server.

Heartbroken, I was almost ready to leave the game. By this point guilds where deep into AQ40 and I hadn't seen past Vael's room and it seemed like I never would on my Mage. We then decided to take transfers IN to Bronzebeard as we had a list of transfers from other servers that wanted to move to Aman'thul and join us there ... we had them come to us. We could field around 30-35 at any given night, so we started easy back into MC again. First week in there (3 nights) we cleared it and killed Rag. Then we started on BWL.

Took us a few weeks, around 3-4 to get Razor down, and another 3-4 to get Vael down ... the impressive part is our first Razor kill was with 31 people and our first Vael kill was with only 32 people. I doubt many guilds can boast that accomplishment. Quick succession followed, Broodlord and Firemaw down first night of attempts ... Ebonroc and Flamegor down as well and then 2 weeks on Chromag. Mind you, this is all with around 33-36 people, never with a full 40.

Nef died shortly after, and we started on AQ40. Ended up getting up to Huhu when the revamped PvP system began to kill raiding. We where dying as a guild at this point because it was possible to 30-35 man most of BWL if you are good enough, as well as early AQ40 ... but it was getting far too hard to make progress through mid-late AQ40 with less then a full raid.

We again discussed moving to an Oceanic server, as by this point almost everyone's cooldown was up (nerfed to 3 months) but then the details for TBC was released - outlining 25man raids. Excellent we thought, we could easily form 25man raids every night of the week, we should pwn through TBC content.

TBC comes, the hardcore people (like myself) hit 70 in 5-7 days (real time) and begin Karazhan attunement and head in there ... this is where everything started going downhill.

Jealousy sets in because we are running Karazhan and the rest of the guild are struggling to attune throught the 5-mans. Don't kid yourself or stroke your e-peen here guys, those 5-mans where hard if all you had was T2 and some low level quest rewards as your gear ... sure, now they are easy as pie, but then they WHERE hard. The rest of the guild seemed to think that we just strolled through our attunement along easy street and now don't care for them because we are raiding. What they didn't know is that we suffered through endless wipes to complete them. I remember our first Shadow Labs run at around lvl 68 ... we wiped for hours on Blackheart the Inciter and didn't have enough DPS to kill the Warlock boss after him. Came back a few nights later and ended up clearing it for our attunement.

So we take a few weeks (2) off Karazhan to attune as many people as we can ... yet there where still people whinging about not being able to get into a run. At this stage, the MT's and main healers are soo burnt out on eye bleeding through 5-mans, wiping on easy shit because half of our guild are less skilled then the hardcore ones. But we got pretty much everyone attuned.

Then there is Karazhan ... and with the skill level in our guild as well as the sporadic attendance of many players we simply could not run 2 raids or neither of them would get anywhere. So we had to implement a rotation amongst the classes. We though that this would be good, we could start earlier, raid later, sub in classes for encounters and the rest of the guild could run 5-mans and gear up.

Wrong.

If people didn't get to raid, they would log off - and whinge somehow. Those online and not raiding whinge because they have nothing to do as half the guild is in Karazhan and the other 7 online had no tank or no healer or whatever.

Gah!

So we decided to not schedule Karazhan as much and get people online and working on Maulgar ... did really well the first night in there, ended up getting the Priest down and got the Warlock add sub 50% several times. This is still with 90% of the guild still wearing T2 after levelling and not many instances.

Then people stopped logging on for Maulgar and we ended up runnig Karazhan raids the nights we where supposed to do Maulgar. We even entised some people back into raiding by getting the guild to run Naxx a few nights - this seemed to work well actually. We had around 20-25 most nights and have now cleared Spider Wing ... but it declines again (attendance).

Ive tried to ask people individually why they don't show up, and the general response is they just have better things to do. So the people I once could count on to log on and raid are now not as dependable.

The other problem is the sharp difference in skill level between the guild - some are outstanding at their class and some are simply just plain horrible ... but, I have known them for almost 2 years now, and they are really nice people, but how do you tell a good friend they suck and I would rather take someone else to Karazhan?

So I bring up with the Officers again about transferring to an Oceanic realm FINALLY, like we planned all that time ago. Many um and ahh and still think we have a future on this realm and with these people - but I do not see a future.

Even if we do move to an Oceanic server, and recruit some extra people to maintain raids, there is still going to be those less skilled players that we have to babysit through content .. and I don't think that is fair on me. But they are good friends and I want to help them.

See my dilemma?

I have the experience, skill, capability and above all, time, to be a hardcore raider. It is what I crave, content, I want to see all the cool raid design/encounters and when I do not get to see/experience them I feel very left out and dispondant.

My guild is full of wonderful people, great people, who I enjoy spending time with and playing ... but when it comes to raid time I generally wish I could be surrounded with like minded/skilled/decidcated people and im afraid at least half of them do not meet this.

Hit the character limit Here is the rest.




I do think the best course of action is to leave the guild and join a more hardcore guild ... but as you can probably tell by the sheer length of this post that I have a MASSIVE history with these guys and girls. I feel a sense of responsibility to them. If I was to leave I would feel that I would be letting them down and I am rather sure that if I am not there to work soo hard to get the guild going that it may just die into nothingness ... I do not want that. I don't want that weighing on my shoulders if I am to go - it makes me scared to leave for fear of what may happen to the guild and its people.

There are several people in the guild who are the same skill/dedication level as I am and could fit the "hardcore" raider profile and whom I would be happy to raid with - but there is no way im going to do a guild ninja ... take all the good players and leave. That is not me, I have very high morale standings. I also feel if I bail they will more then likely ask me where I am going and to which guild and possibly follow suit.

I am not currently enjoying the game ... but I still want to play and above all, raid. But I cannot do this on my current realm and with most of the good friends I have made.

This decision is cutting me up inside.

This thread offers nothing to the community at large and is, despite its wide reaching title, completely centered around your inability to make personal decisions for yourself.

When you'd earn more money as a novelist...

Keep a less serious alt in that guild, and raid mostly with your main. Since they aren't that hardcore, they won't be let down by you being more like them. If the whole guild is being held together by a single person, it wasn't meant to be.

I doubt I am the only one facing a similar problem due to the "casual unfriendly" nature of TBC raiding and considering moving on - but feel a sense of responsibility to their guild.

He's not the only one facing this dilemma, but at the same time, it *is* a personal choice.

It's time to move on when you write a ridiculously long winded thread that consists of essentially nothing of substance and doesn't concern anyone but yourself in the least.

Frankly, Xei, this is very much a personal decision with not a whole lot of applicability to the EJ community as a whole. As someone who has played on the Bronzebeard realm for over 2 years, with L60 toons on both factions, and even having talked to you personally in-game, I can provide some advice.

If you're looking for a hardcore raiding experience, get away from Bronzebeard (especially BB Horde) as fast as possible. BB Horde PvE progress has always been lackluster (not a single C'Thun kill pre-TBC) and it doesn't look like it'll improve. The reason for that is not incompetent leaders, but a truly tiny population of Horde players on the server, and an even smaller hardcore contingent. Recruitment is a nightmare. With such a small pool of talent, there's simply no way that a premeire Horde PvE raiding guild can exists.

Case in point: The Twelve Prophets debacle.

Most of the community probably recognize 12P from their EQ fame. They were among the very best raiding guilds. When WoW was released, the guild rolled on Mannoroth and enjoyed similar success until an officer spat splintered the group. Most 12P members went on to form Predestined, a KT-killing guild also on Mannoroth.

Monztamash and a few others tried to revive The Twelve Prophets, on Bronzbeard of all places: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...532670&sid=1#0

It was a total failure of course, as anyone that is knowledgeable about the state of the Horde on Bronzebeard could have predicted. The new 12P officers abandoned BB, rerolled their toons (not merely a transfer mind you, PvE->PvP is not possible), and have returned to Mannoroth: http://www.twelveprophets.com/

So, Xei, take a lesson from 12P and get the hell off of BB if hardcore raiding is what you value. You might try a realm like Blackrock, which is known for its large number of successful Australian PvE guilds.

I think the responses above cover it. In the abstract this could be an interesting topic. Maybe.

But this thread is like a little slice of Livejournal exported to these forums. No thanks.