For instance, there is the pure shield block tank... the role is massive amounts of threat.
Just had to respond to this... I really don't think the difference is as great as one might hope. By my numbers, going from a block value of 400 to 1000 generally adds a little more than 100 TPS. This threat gain is really only worth it when you're off-tanking without taking damage.
Originally Posted by Ataraxia
As an OT on Gruul it can get pretty frustrating... Dodging and Parrying his Hurtful Strikes in the first few grows, eating all of them later (not building enough threat, being a mana drain respectively). The solution I came up with is to hold my right mouse button down and flip around when I "feel" a Hurtful Strike incoming so I'm sure to get the rage from the Strike.
I agree that it's ridiculous that warriors end up having to do "tricks" like this.
We've killed Gruul a couple times now, and if this has been touched upon already, I apologize (it's a tough set of keywords to search for). Right after Gruul shatters, he goes charging after someone other than me. It occurs almost every time. When I'm stoned, I sit there mashing Demo shout to do something long range to get him to notice me, as he's quite fast. Occasionally however, either Demo resists, or he just doesn't feel like sticking. He runs over, one shots a cloth wearer, then runs back to me.
It hasn't prevented us from killing him, but every time I come out of the stoned debuff, I have a small heart attack as he tries to run away from me. I'm assuming stoned is like a BoP or similar de-aggroing ability, it's just really annoying to deal with.
I watched Nihilum's 15 man Gruul kill, and Gruul appeared to stick to Kungen like glue after each shatter. I'm stumped :|
Try Battle Shout? Or Commanding I guess, as the MT. Battle Shout definitely gives threat and is guaranteed to land. I haven't read anything about Commanding Shout to that effect but it may work too.
Kungen probably saves rage for something like a Shield Slam after the shatter to nail Gruul with. I do too.
Gruul staying in place probably helps DPS a tiny bit. Gruul moving a little bit after the Shatter probably helps your healers get a second of positioning back on you.
I think that the pros and cons here equalize each other decently well. Decide what you want to do.
If OT threat is an issue for you on Gruul - which we experienced last week for the first time for some odd reason - throw your tanks a shaman. WF, SoE and Unleashed Rage in the MT group is pretty ridiculous for threat gen, and burning Heroism right in the start helps the tanks get well ahead on threat. We used a Warr/Warr/Shaman/Paladin/Warlock MT group and noone managed to even come remotely close to the OT in threat .. including ranged classes. Pushing in excess of 850TPS consistently w/o heroism up (according to KTM anyway) makes for happy DPSers. There's no point in giving your melee DPS WF anyway if they're just going to die because they out-aggro'd the OT, or because they have to hold back to not outdo the OT on threat.
My guild killed gruul, while I was fixing my pc my girlfriend was in the raid and as I was watching them play I noticed that his ground slams and shatter were taking longer after growth #10. On growth #12 ground slam was delayed by well over 10 seconds and silence came early and again on #13 ground slam was late by as much as 15 seconds.
He behaves really weird sometimes.
Last night was pessimistic skydive in a foolish narcotic shell
How many growths are people killing Gruul in these days? We only started Gruul last week (guild issues) and we managed to get him to 10% at about 12 growths before our MT died. We later discovered that our OT had more armour, but I'm still curious about what kind of damage input we can expect.
Originally Posted by Teez
If OT threat is an issue for you on Gruul - which we experienced last week for the first time for some odd reason - throw your tanks a shaman. WF, SoE and Unleashed Rage in the MT group is pretty ridiculous for threat gen, and burning Heroism right in the start helps the tanks get well ahead on threat. We used a Warr/Warr/Shaman/Paladin/Warlock MT group and noone managed to even come remotely close to the OT in threat .. including ranged classes. Pushing in excess of 850TPS consistently w/o heroism up (according to KTM anyway) makes for happy DPSers. There's no point in giving your melee DPS WF anyway if they're just going to die because they out-aggro'd the OT, or because they have to hold back to not outdo the OT on threat.
We went in for Gruul last night and called it after a few bugtastic attempts. Instead of like most bugged Gruul fights which are considerably easier (and we have had a few) he was if anything harder.
We went in with a normal comp and melee was dying left and right, couldnt figure out why. Thought we were dying to an unannounced Cavein untill I caught it on my combat log, Gruul was Hurtful Striking random melee targets. To further test it, we went in on more attempts and I stood there, barely genning threat, just enough to be on his meter but well below our Misdirected OT and still ate hurtfuls.
Now not everyone one of his hurtfuls is hitting the melee, most of them hit the OT but not all of them and I am now convinced it isnt a matter of threat. We first thought KTM was buggy and not showing threat correctly, but no reason it shouldnt be just on this fight, also the amount of threat the tanks are generating is on par with our normal kills of him at those %'s.
Most likely your OT isn't standing in range of Gruul. I'm sure most people have had issues while learning Gruul where on the engage, as you moved him to the desired position, he'd turn around and gib people because the OT wasn't quite in range. Just tell your melee to wait till he's in position and then go.
We went in for Gruul last night and called it after a few bugtastic attempts. Instead of like most bugged Gruul fights which are considerably easier (and we have had a few) he was if anything harder.
We went in with a normal comp and melee was dying left and right, couldnt figure out why. Thought we were dying to an unannounced Cavein untill I caught it on my combat log, Gruul was Hurtful Striking random melee targets. To further test it, we went in on more attempts and I stood there, barely genning threat, just enough to be on his meter but well below our Misdirected OT and still ate hurtfuls.
Now not everyone one of his hurtfuls is hitting the melee, most of them hit the OT but not all of them and I am now convinced it isnt a matter of threat. We first thought KTM was buggy and not showing threat correctly, but no reason it shouldnt be just on this fight, also the amount of threat the tanks are generating is on par with our normal kills of him at those %'s.
Anyone experianced anything similar?
Don't quote me on this, but i think i remember reading this happens if the OT isnt standing close enough to Gruul's 'center'. Even if he can hit Gruul, it doesnt mean Gruul can hit him
How many growths are people killing Gruul in these days? We only started Gruul last week (guild issues) and we managed to get him to 10% at about 12 growths before our MT died. We later discovered that our OT had more armour, but I'm still curious about what kind of damage input we can expect.
You can expect a very large damage input without a way to counter it because of your druid tank; bear MTs really show their weaknesses towards the end of that fight. Gruul's regular hits are hard enough - frequent crushings make it much harder to heal. He also can't pop Last Stand during a bad reverb, Shield Wall, eat a Stoneshield or make efficient use of 25% armor crit heal buffs stacked with Imp LoH. Warriors get near 30k armor from those buffs on the last half of the fight, combined with the lack of crushings and the availability of "oh shit" buttons they're much easier to keep up. If you can manage to get a warrior, do it, else just hope to kill Gruul before he kills your MT from a string of bad hits.
You can expect a very large damage input without a way to counter it because of your druid tank; bear MTs really show their weaknesses towards the end of that fight. Gruul's regular hits are hard enough - frequent crushings make it much harder to heal. He also can't pop Last Stand during a bad reverb, Shield Wall, eat a Stoneshield or make efficient use of 25% armor crit heal buffs stacked with Imp LoH. Warriors get near 30k armor from those buffs on the last half of the fight, combined with the lack of crushings and the availability of "oh shit" buttons they're much easier to keep up. If you can manage to get a warrior, do it, else just hope to kill Gruul before he kills your MT from a string of bad hits.
Ensuring that both tanks have ancestral fortitude/inspiration and devotion aura is vital, as Erongg mentioned. The imp. lay on hands is also a lifesaver, if you have 2 paladins. Have one of your hunters keep scorpid sting up on him in the later growths as well. The -5% to hit makes a huge difference.
Don't quote me on this, but i think i remember reading this happens if the OT isnt standing close enough to Gruul's 'center'. Even if he can hit Gruul, it doesnt mean Gruul can hit him
This is correct. Hurtful Strike has a range of 5yd from the very center of Gruul's hitbox, and his hitbox can become very misleading as he grows more and more. Watch the red circle on the ground under him, and always be touching it as the OT.
We went in for Gruul last night and called it after a few bugtastic attempts. Instead of like most bugged Gruul fights which are considerably easier (and we have had a few) he was if anything harder.
We went in with a normal comp and melee was dying left and right, couldnt figure out why. Thought we were dying to an unannounced Cavein untill I caught it on my combat log, Gruul was Hurtful Striking random melee targets. To further test it, we went in on more attempts and I stood there, barely genning threat, just enough to be on his meter but well below our Misdirected OT and still ate hurtfuls.
Now not everyone one of his hurtfuls is hitting the melee, most of them hit the OT but not all of them and I am now convinced it isnt a matter of threat. We first thought KTM was buggy and not showing threat correctly, but no reason it shouldnt be just on this fight, also the amount of threat the tanks are generating is on par with our normal kills of him at those %'s.
Anyone experianced anything similar?
Interesting. I'm the OT for that fight and have never really had problems with my threat until this week. I thought something was wrong, maybe with my gear, or that I was getting parried a lot or something (what do you use to measure TPS?). He was doing what you described; almost randomly going after other Melee with Hurtfuls.
One attempt we were pulling, MT in front me right behind. MT grabs him and is going to tank position. I hit Demo Roar to just get on aggro. A priest in the guild is running behind me to stay in range of the MT. Gruul turns and one-shots the priest with a Hurtful even though I'm absolutely above him on threat and in melee range. We thought it was the priest's fault because he was new. Another attempt a Rogue came in the same way and got one-shot. We had to tell people to just stand way back during the run in which usually isn't a problem.
During the attempts themselves, I'd be pumping out threat as best I could, and I'd see Gruul's target change to one of the melee over and over again. Most landed on me, but not all. One of our Rogues died to a Hurtful, got battle rezzed, and a minute later got another Hurtful (I think he dodged that one). Of course, this made his epeen enormous.
I thought I was failing miserably as the OT (I went so far as to pot up with everything I had to try to keep threat going). Finally we had an attempt where he wasn't going after the melee, and we downed him. It was really odd.
Don't quote me on this, but i think i remember reading this happens if the OT isnt standing close enough to Gruul's 'center'. Even if he can hit Gruul, it doesnt mean Gruul can hit him
I was standing closer to Gruul than the MT was. A couple times, it was possible that I wasn't close enough, but not every single one of those. The priest and Rogue that died were further back than I was on the run in; I was only a few steps behind the MT. Graphical latency and all that, but still.
JUICE! Aww I'm sorry. Did... did anyone want some juice?
This is correct. Hurtful Strike has a range of 5yd from the very center of Gruul's hitbox, and his hitbox can become very misleading as he grows more and more. Watch the red circle on the ground under him, and always be touching it as the OT.
Could it be this causing him to bug out and stop doing HS and ground slam? If no one is standing close enough, I mean.
Doubtful. Just saying it's something to be careful about, though. I know that when we were learning the fight we often had periodic HS one-shots of melee when Gruul was repositioned by the MT, until the OT learned to stand closer at all times.
We got Gruul with old hp yesterday.... I really dont understand what is hapening with hotfixes after patch.
Same happened to us on our first 2 IDs (post nerf). I'm afraid I ain't got the Log anymore, but he had his old hp back. One day later (still same ID) he had his new amount of hp, but didnt shatter before 22%.
Also we had some tries where he oneshotted the melees with Hurtfuls and I dont think its just an issue of the OT beeing too far away. I've read quite a lot about his tiny hitbox (I'm the Offtank) and was standing in the middle of his red circle all the time. Melee was told to not get near Gruul if I wasn't exactly between his legs - still some got oneshotted. (If KTM istn all wrong, they never had more than 75-80% of my aggro during the fight)
Especially the switching of his hp makes me mad as hell as I spend hours of farming pots just to play some Rolling-Games with Gruul later wether he's beatable for us or not.
By now we've wasted 3 IDs (maybe 10 hours) on this mob and I doubt more than 10% of our wipes were our fault. HS on the MT (with 2 Melees between Gruuls legs and MT shown on top of KTM) and funny stuff like 3 silences in 20 seconds dont really make this mob fun anymore. People are getting frustrated and start loosing their will to fight him any longer as he is now.
Just an update on my whole Gruul running away after Shatter dilemma. I figured out what the problem was with him. My standard M.O. when ground slam goes off that myself and the OT both intercept into him and then try and put ourselves as far away from each other as we can while still being in melee range.
A few times this week, I didn't get punted very far, so rather than lose all that rage, I just walked up to him. He stuck on me, and didn't cause any problems. What occured to me is that the act of intercepting while having the slowing effect made Gruul think I was somewhere else.
I have also started saving my bloodrage as well however, and I think I might continue to use intercept to get back to him after the ground slam. It gives the healers time to get back into position, as he goes charging off (and now I'm not so sure he's actually going after specific people anymore) I hit bloodrage, and it's a good 2-3 seconds where he isn't hitting anyone.
I'm only concerned that he may hurtful strike someone as he runs past them.
Just throwing this into the fire, it's not definitive evidence, just another anecdote that lines up a little with what I've heard previously. We did Gruul a few days ago and switched up our tanking to have a different MT. Our Hunter was not paying attention and misdirected to our usual MT. Usual MT gains initial agro, new MT pulls it off him and begins to tank like normal. Gruul was bugged and did no HS or ground slams. Like I said, it could have been a coincidence, but I recall someone mentioned before that they were doing some sort of tank switch at the beginning a lot and it was causing him to bug out. May I'm misremembering but this may be a reason why he bugs.
Tuesday, we were at around 10ish growths, and I got destroyed by a reverb when all of my healers were moving simultaneously. The next series of events led to our first bugged Gruul.
1. HS tank becomes MT, top threat rogue pops evasion.
2. Evasion fades, rogue dies, soulstones up.
3. Next rogue evasions, it fades, rogue dies, soulstones up (We're not overly confident in our rogues survivability)
4. After this point, no more specials occur. No reverb, HS, Shatter, nothing.
It is definitely possible that MT swapping could lead to Gruul bugging out, however we didn't see it until he had killed two melee after the MT swap.
Apologies if this post is in the wrong place: this seemed the most appropriate to me.
We were having trouble keeping our tank up on Gruul. Here's the relevant bits from the WWS combat log:
7:40:21.XXX Gruul the Dragonkiller is afflicted by Thunderclap
7:40:36.218 Gruul the Dragonkiller hits Tank for 7467 (block for xxx)
7:40:38.687 Gruul the Dragonkiller hits Tank for 7898 (block for xxx)
7:40:39.968 Gruul the Dragonkiller hits Tank for 8762 (tank dies)
Gruul does NOT parry ANYONE during that time interval. Why was his final attack so much quicker?
Granted, healing was somewhat off, but if that third attack had been crushing, or if this had occured during a reverb, I don't know what could have been done.
04/06/07, 9:51 AM
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