Hiba

There seems to be no topic for Magtheridon encounter at the moment.

- The Magtheridon encounter has been rebalanced to be somewhat easier and should now better keep to proper raid progression.

This gives no info what they did actually change. Did anyone go there yesterday after the hotfix, and could give some details?

We spent 3 full raids last reset learning the encounter, and we managed to reach the situation where we need to start clicking the portals to prevent the fire damage while still finishing the last adds (1-2 alive). So I can't really comment the difficulty of the later part of the fight, but for me it seemed that the difficulty comes from the p1 and from the fact that you need 20 guys + MT alive if you want to keep the rotation working.

For us the hard part was keeping the tanks alive while we get the knockback from Magtheridon in the end of p1, so tuning down the add damage or hp might help a lot. Also the infernals should be tuned down a bit, I would not like to even go there without 4 warlocks. And even with 4, they seemed always manage to kill few players and most wipes were caused by them (free infernal during knockback will almost everytime kill somebody). Good tuning might also be a reduced cooldown on using the portals, maybe only 15 people required to do it would give some room for errors.

Anyways, we are going back there tonight.

Lightwell object increased in size to make it easier to click.

 

koaschten

from my point of view, the only thing that might be balanced is the cast time in the adds heal spell, dmg of the shadowbolt nova and the adds hp. anything beyond that would make it onyxia style, too easy, because as you already said, p2 is all about in-time clicking on the cubes and not messing up rotations. sadly we downed magtheridon as usual on wednesday evening on our eu-server so i cant give more info, as the encounter was still the old one at that time.

 

Mondragon

Guildy tells me 120k got kncoked off each add ....could be BS tho

 

xyruul

I didn't get exact numbers from mobhealth yet, but pre-hotfix tonight they had about 350k health each. We were struggling to get 2 down before the 2m timer. Post hotfix we could down 3 with relative ease (although we did brind 2 extra dps after some healers left). The adds definately have much less hp, I would guess around 230k given what I saw. Mag himself hit me for 5-6k post hotfix, as opposed to whatever meaningless damage he did before. That appears to be all that changed. I presume a potted and geared guild could down all 5 adds before the 2m timer now if they tried.

 

Inkm

I might've misread Bliz' raid tier chart and misunderstood the whole placement of Mag, but isn't he too supposed to be a entrylevel 25 man, onyxia style encounter ?

 

Schneeb

No thats gruul, you only get 1/2 price epics here

After all, the chest piece of armor sets has been the hardest (or thereabouts) to obtain for a while now.

 

dukes

Regardless of how they nerf the adds, the cubes are still going to be a nightmare for any slightly-disorganised guild. Having to have the rotation going, and people sticking to it and concentrating can be a real pain in the arse no matter which way you look at it, especially if mag is hitting harder than he used to be so you actually have to do some proper tank healing. If they were to nerf the mind exhaustion to say 2 minutes from the current 3, then it would mean only needing 15 people, and much more room for screwups, which is basically what they did to gruul with shatter.

The add nerf means a bit less organisation on interrupts, and not quite having to have such insanely geared tanks, but it doesn't change the main part of the fight, and no-one has said anything about trash respawn being more than an hour yet, which is the biggest bitch of the encounter just because of the annoyance factor - I wouldn't mind much if it was say 2 packs and they always respawned, onyxia trash style.

 

Mosh

I think they took the nerf in the right direction personally. I'm happy with encounters that require excellent individual play, as long as we're not running our heads against the wall due to numbers. Having to bring X people of Y class with Z consumables to do the add phase properly got old fast, but if we can go in with a weird setup and have our biggest issue be the cubes, that's great.

 

Lamaros

Killed. Certainly easier, but the spirit of the fight seems the same and it's not a walkover. Though the hardest part is warlocks not sucking and the 30% timing. Once you have a group who's done it once it will be pretty easy.

 

Joy

Observations have pretty much been covered

'Bout 80k off each adds HP
500ish off Shadowbolt Volley
Mag's physical damage up ~~40%

Pre nerf we had 1 night of attempts and killed 4 adds,
Tonight in 5 attempts we -just- got onto Mag without an ideal raid ( 2 warlocks, Tanks 2 and 3 absent [in gear and experience]) without any consumables.

With 3 locks and our better geared tanks we'd get him with moderate difficulty ( ie seems well tuned)

In terms of gear and experience, we've done 3 Nightbanes for 4 weeks now.

I agree that a geared guild who chose to full pot up could kill all 5 adds as Mag is released.

 

Inkm

I know that about Gruul, hence the "too" .

Anyway, they're placed the same in the raid tiers on Blizzards raid chart and that alone signals that they're about the same difficulty and should drop comparable tiered loot.

At least thats how I'm reading it.

I also seem to remember a blue post somewhere that they where going to look into Mag because he was fairly entrylevel and more guild should've cleared him out then what was the case when that post was made.

Ah well, I might be wrong in remembering the details here.

Edit; do keep in mind I dont have bad itemization and what not in mind here. Just the relative power / position of the encounter in the raid hieracy / tiers in TBC.

 

Schneeb

Im sure by entry level they mean the lack of attunement and being part of a later attunement.

I hope they have placed him somewhere between joke-gruul and hydross, that'd be nice.

I also pray this wave of nerfs doesnt hit ssc too hard as the most frustrating thing about the first 3 bosses we did was the trash, the bosses are not nearly as steep learning curves as mag was.

 

Brilliance

He got nerfed. Big Time.

We had 3 adds down (We got to the third nova) in 1 night of progress.

Last night we go in, Kill 4 adds before he breaks, and get him to 22% on our first attempt. Its terribly easy now (didnt get a kill because people need to l2clickbox, only did 3 attempts since we just went in to fuck around with whats left on our flasks from SSC).

I dont think they will do anything to SSC or The Eye now. Its a step up, like going from BWL // AQ to Naxx. The top end guilds will be able to clear the place, The Average or Lower End will see 1-2 boss kills (Hydross and Fathomlord at most, or thats what I think)

 

Antoine

While they both are entry-level, do remember that the bosses that dropped t1, t2, t3 chests were harder than the bosses that dropped the legs on down. While they are in the same tier, keep in mind that there will be a progression of difficulty within that tier. As such, it makes sense that Mag is harder than Curator, Prince, Maulgar, and Gruul.

 

Inkm

I really do hope you see the problem with that. You really cant have Naxx level encounters as the first linear 25 man instances (eg. not 1-2 bosses, done at saturday night when bored aka Onyxia) in a game.

With the rate at which they are pushing out content now, this content should by all means be fairly accsessible for average raiding guilds and very doable for the seriously hardcore which need the gear to be able to make a dent on the Black Temple.

All things beeing equal (which we know they arent but anyway), Black temple should be the new aq40 and Hyjal should probably be Naxx.

Casual raiding guilds should in due time be able to poke their heads into Black Temple while having SSC and The Eye on farm. Then again I might very well be very wrong but it really seems unlikely that they'll have no less then 4 dungeons like Naxx that is effectivly unavailable to the vast majority of the playerbase. It doesn't seem to fit with the whole "TBC makes casual beeing easier" and "its easier to get 25 people together then 40" philosophy.

This is very correct and a very good point. It's also tied in with the relative ilevel and slotmods as certain pieces are "worth" more then others (eg. head vs bracers) but this is something you all know on this forum I suppose .

However, there should be a relative difference in how hard they are within the same tier, it should be like blackberries and blueberries, not apples and airplanes. So to speak.

 

Lamaros

He's very much a co-ordination fight (Yay@fights where having Australian Lag is oh so useful) than anything else now, any DPS requirements have been severly lowered.

Before he was easier that Gruul (we never killed him and did kill Gruul - but we gave much less effort to Mag) where as now he is clearly harder.

 

Nezralix

Don't count on it. There are many bosses across SSC, TK, Hyjal, and the Black Temple. Blizzard ultimately won't allow SSC/TK/Hyjal/BT to go virtually untouched by 95% of the raiding population, no matter how great the other 5% thinks it is that they have a vast number of "progression bosses" to look forward to, along with a huge loot monopoly.

 

Expigator

Ran a late night raid just to see what his changes were....our thoughts...

We previously downed 2 adds before Mag would release, and now we can get 4 (unpotted). Their hp was nerfed big time. Same with the trash leading up to Mag....they all had a significant reduction in HP (damage stays same on trash).

As far as damage from Mag's adds, i believe it was hitting for the same amount. We were getting 3-4k shadowbolt volley's by the 4th add, however I don't remember if this was similar to pre-nerf.

Mag melee hits much harder now though.

 

Elerion

Actually, Tigole has posted that both Gruul and Mag should feel like Onyxia 6 months into retail. In other words, above average organized guilds will kill them, end-naxx guilds will steamroll them with practice, and casual guilds will find them out of their reach in the short run.

Ony wasn't pugged 6 months into retail.

 

Brilliance

I dont actaully. The first 25 man instances people can do and complete their T4. Its like BWL//AQ again. (T4 = T2//2.5, and you even get more Hybrid Options for it!).

Full of bugs (LOLPUN) and an unkillable last boss? :P Things needs to get progressivly harder. Black Temple and Hyjal should be above Naxx in difficulty. The Average and Below Average guild will have their hands full of things to do with SSC and The Eye.

Whats untouched? You can go fight any of the bosses in SSC (except Vashj) when you zone in, and the same with The Eye (Except Kael) And since The Black Temple will have multi wings, guilds can touch the first boss(es). Are you telling me thats NOT enough content (dont forget Kara, Gruul, And Mag) for Average or Below-Average guild?

 

Nezralix

So MC/BWL/AQ are condensed into three 25-man raid bosses? Does that really make sense to you?

Touchable but not killable? Sorry, but you've lost all sense of perspective if you think that it's in any way acceptable to Blizzard for 95% of raiding guilds to clear Mag, Gruul, and one boss in SSC and call it a day, leaving the other 20+ bosses for "the big kids".

Oh, and Heroics should be more than enough for any casual!! Right? Pre-TBC had AQ20 and ZG, and they didn't diminish the appetite for 40-man raids. People will still be wanting to do this stuff, people who will be disappointed if there's not some reasonable ramp-up of progression, and I'm sure Blizzard has some target like having at least 20% of the raiding population making significant progress into the Black Temple by the time the next expansion comes out (more than "lol let's go zone into BT to see the artwork on the first boss!")

 

Inkm

I'm not really sure I agree that anything should be much harder then Naxx. The zone required some massive consumable use which more or less everyone agrees is a bad thing.

Presuming this is done away with somehow, the trickyness of an encounter has a fairly limited scope allthough we did see some good stuff in Naxx (mostly videos for me but hey) and I'm guessing there's still a few more gimmics, good or bad, the developers can come up with.

I totally agree that things need to be progressivly harder, thats bascially what I'm advocating as well . But what's basically most guilds need to have a fighting chance on the first encounters available.

And tier4 is not really a contiunation of tier3, compared the the various monkeysuits (eg. blue gear) tier4 is the new tier1. And as such, tier4 needs to be accessible for normal raiding guilds so they can continue their progress. Their progress should be slower and probably stagnate at the Naxx level encounters which really do require some effort, but up to that these guilds need a chance. Simply because the vast majority of the playerbase that raids will fit into this category.

You are somewhat self contradicting though, you're saying that the normal guilds will have their hands full in SSC and the eye, this is true and what I'm expecting as well. On the other hand you say it should be Naxx difficulty and that will exclude the content.

Basically, you dont expect a well tuned Naxx to drop MC loot and you dont expect a well tuned Naxx to be doable in blues. The first level of 25 man raiding needs to be accessible (not easymode, accessible). If nothing else, simply to provide the major raiding playerbase something to do.

 

Ochiba

Can't we leave the casual versus hardcore debate on the official boards? Your argument gets`way out of line when you argue that bosses you haven't even seen yet are a brick wall to guilds.

 

Tszyu

How hard is he hitting now?

I saw someone say 40% harder, but didn't see a value.

 

Skulli

he was hitting for 2-3k before at least.
On our first kill the MT died at around 20% by a debriss oneshot and a dps warrior (in dps gear) tanked him then without any problems.