High-end raiding + Talent specs (PvE vs PvP). - Page 2

Mearis · 03/23/07, 8:46 AM

Exceptional players will always perform well even with extravagant specs. Exceptional players with good specs will perform even better, so 'beating the other damage dealers' is not an excuse to keep a substandard spec.

Schneeb · 03/23/07, 8:48 AM

Its pretty simple with us, spec pve for raids - do what you want the rest of the time.

Afterall speccing 'pvp' will often help farming so you should be able to farm up 100g in a few hours..

XI- · 03/23/07, 8:53 AM

Pretty much all of our members are full raiding specs, at least for progress. We've had people try and raid with non-raid specs (they were trying to farm, or finish up some quests), and usually they'll leave the raid and respec because they can't stand not performing as well as they usually do.

In addition if we come to an encounter that we think specs could make a huge difference, even if it's completely bizarre, we'll stop the raid to have people go respec (eg. when we first did Gluth, we sent 3-4 mages out to spec deep frost with Improved Blizzard, or the absolutely bizarre prot/fury/arms spec that we had a tank spec for our first patchwerk). I have no doubt this contributes a lot to our success. Spec's can definitely make as much of a difference in an encounter as consumables can when it comes to maximizing damage.

Nexus-7 · 03/23/07, 9:00 AM

Of course, if you're already bumping your head against the threat ceiling then it's OK to dump some of those minor DPS talents for some utility talents. There's no need to improve your DPS if you end up just sitting there waiting for the tank. Besides, some of those utility talents may end up saving you a wipe on some encounters.

I'd say that evaluating each raider individually and understanding his contribution to each encounter you slam up against is more than just reading the numbers on the damage meter, and often times there is more to a person's spec than just the damage or healing they put out for you.

Leto · 03/23/07, 9:13 AM

If your guild is competitive at raiding, your members should want to maximize their contribution of their own accord, otherwise they probably don't belong in your guild. If you have to force people to spec for raiding frequently, then you probably have bigger troubles to worry about.

It's not fun being in a guild that's trying to be more hardcore than it is.

Playered · 03/23/07, 9:15 AM

We used to have perhaps 2/6 rogues being PvE specd, the general location on the DM'ers was as you would expect.
After some threats of "prio on raid spots due to spec" and basicly saying if they had PvP specs... they could fuck off and do that instead, they all (bar 1 who got phased out) went PvE spec and generally the top 6 of the DM always contained atleast 4 rogues.

We were never that fussy on weapon spec for them however (Dagger v Sword) despite some having obvious advantages at one point or another.

I personally started off with swords because at the time dagger was somewhat slightly inferior I believe, then when I found out about the upcoming changes to dagger spec I quickly started adapting my gear for that and took the first dagger that dropped (HoD), and then thanks to DKP got the first DS (thank god no AQR/CTS/CoTBD ever dropped I guess).

My spot as generally #1 on damage came from willingness to spec and gear (not to mention research) my character towards being the best for PvE I could possibly be, no matter how much I despised the spec in question (daggers, *shudder*)

Not everyone went that far into that kind of extent, and still pulled off near top DPS, however putting that extra bit of effort into being the best gave me the result of being the best and I dont think I would ever do it differently.

Its pretty easy and obvious to notice people being PvP spec'd while raiding, and shaming/bullying has its uses on these occasions.

thejdawg · 03/23/07, 9:25 AM

Originally Posted by Inkm

Weird specs can cause more wipes then most people give it credit for in my opinion.

Maybe, and maybe not. Would your raid benefit from having more NSes from the feral/balance druids and enhancement shaman? Sure, but if you're at a point where you need 4-5 NSes within a 3 minute span, chances are it's execution holding you back, and not specs. For example.

Inkm · 03/23/07, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by thejdawg

Maybe, and maybe not. Would your raid benefit from having more NSes from the feral/balance druids and enhancement shaman? Sure, but if you're at a point where you need 4-5 NSes within a 3 minute span, chances are it's execution holding you back, and not specs. For example.

Yes, that's true.

I do think it's a bit class-specific as well. A sub rogue will be very, very subpar compared to a combat rogue for instance. The prot warrior should be able to perform (quite a lot) better then the MS warrior as a tank and <insert best mage spec> will be better then <insert worst mage spec> etc.

Your example is more of a min-max situation where as I was thinking broader. You are correct though

.

Randor · 03/23/07, 10:13 AM

Personally, I think there is a greater disparity and challenge in finding a working solution to between being specced for raids and specced for instances (especially heroics) rather than pve vs pvp.

kycan · 03/23/07, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Dendory

Spec is a small part of DPS. I'm a deep frost mage and top our DPS chart every single time, with a fire mage following closely. We have 2 warlocks, one of them fights me for the top spot, the other literally does less than half of my DPS. I think they're both destro, I know the one with high DPS is.

I don't mean to pick on this quote in particular, but it hit a pet peeve of mine that I would like to touch on.

Spec is everything for dps. Gear amplified the spec. PvE specs are called PvE specs for a reason. They maximize the contribution of your gear and skill to the raid. Simply put, if you are topping the meters with a deep frost spec, followed by destro warlocks, you either vastly outgear your fire mages and affliction locks, or you need to find new fire mages and affliction locks. That said, your fire mage could be a pvp spec fire mage. I don't really know.

Point is, pve specs will always beat pvp specs at raid dps. Fire will always beat frost. Combat will always beat subtlety. And so forth.

mavfin · 03/23/07, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Leto

It's not fun being in a guild that's trying to be more hardcore than it is.

And there's a good quote.

The question of specs is always part of the philosophy of the guild.

There's guilds who say "We're going to min/max everything and do it the fastest and best we can", and there's guilds who say "We're going to spec the way we want to play, and we'll beat the boss anyway, even if we don't do it as fast as <x min/max guild>, and everything in between.

You have to frame the OP's question with what the raiding philosophy is, or else the question means nothing.

Yes, the ones who don't min/max every spec will pay the price in more wipes, but, usually those types are having fun doing it anyway, as long as they get the boss down eventually. My raiding experience was somewhere in between the two extremes.

YMMV.

Apate · 03/23/07, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Randor

Personally, I think there is a greater disparity and challenge in finding a working solution to between being specced for raids and specced for instances (especially heroics) rather than pve vs pvp.

This is an issue that seems to keep coming up for classes or specs that simply don't stack well. In the limited composition of a 5-man, the line between "Too much role x" and "not enough" becomes a bit more difficult to tread.

Aranan · 03/23/07, 12:19 PM

The thing to remember is that, for DPS classes for example, it isn't a competition on who can beat who. Just because you can take any spec and still beat the next best person on the charts doesn't mean you're playing to your full potential. A highly skilled and well geared player in a subpar spec obviously will only do better if their spec is tailored to the situation at hand.

Like kycan siad, they're called PvE (and PvP) specs for a reason.

For what it's worth, I intend for this character to run most of the time with a hybrid spec in terms of raiding, heroics, and PvP just because I don't like respeccing once a day. My guild doesn't require us to spec certain ways and it's one reason why I'm in the guild. Having previous play experience as a druid who was told "Resto or GTFO", the freedom is appreciated.

Dakous · 03/23/07, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Inkm

Weird specs can cause more wipes then most people give it credit for in my opinion.

Weird specs do not:

A) Cause people to trigger Flame Wreath
B) Cause people to stand in Blizzard
C) Cause people to stand in Arcane Explosion
D) Increase the cast time on Cleanse-related spells
E) Preclude people from taking Improved Banishing, which lets you banish two targets at distances of up to 50,000 yards.

The problem, for specs, to my experience is:

People hiding behind their talent spec ("Oh, well, I'm 15 shadow, so I can't heal as well as X."). "I'm 3 resto, ran every 5 with a resto druid and passed loot to him so my gear is lame, and I'm outhealing you, so go the @#$@ home."

Dissect the raid, experience has shown these are people who are simply terrible at the game, and no talent spec plays the game for them. Yes, a raid spec will make "amazingly terrible" only "slightly terrible" but for the body of cases, we're not talking about top players who are shaving off the final edges of their gofastermobile after having rubbed it with cheetah blood.

Is there a huge problem with people passing off bull as justification for their spec? Yes. But they're still not triggering Flame Wreath because they're Mortal Strike instead of Prot.

• zeidrich · 03/23/07, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by mavfin

And there's a good quote.

The question of specs is always part of the philosophy of the guild.

There's guilds who say "We're going to min/max everything and do it the fastest and best we can", and there's guilds who say "We're going to spec the way we want to play, and we'll beat the boss anyway, even if we don't do it as fast as <x min/max guild>, and everything in between.

I find that there's a lot of guilds who say "We're going to min/max everything, force specs, etc. and do it the fastest and best we can" who progress a lot more slowly than the guilds who say We're going to spec the way we want to play, and we'll beat the boss anyway,"