It's not fun being in a guild that's trying to be more hardcore than it is.
And there's a good quote.
The question of specs is always part of the philosophy of the guild.
There's guilds who say "We're going to min/max everything and do it the fastest and best we can", and there's guilds who say "We're going to spec the way we want to play, and we'll beat the boss anyway, even if we don't do it as fast as <x min/max guild>, and everything in between.
You have to frame the OP's question with what the raiding philosophy is, or else the question means nothing.
Yes, the ones who don't min/max every spec will pay the price in more wipes, but, usually those types are having fun doing it anyway, as long as they get the boss down eventually. My raiding experience was somewhere in between the two extremes.
Personally, I think there is a greater disparity and challenge in finding a working solution to between being specced for raids and specced for instances (especially heroics) rather than pve vs pvp.
This is an issue that seems to keep coming up for classes or specs that simply don't stack well. In the limited composition of a 5-man, the line between "Too much role x" and "not enough" becomes a bit more difficult to tread.
The thing to remember is that, for DPS classes for example, it isn't a competition on who can beat who. Just because you can take any spec and still beat the next best person on the charts doesn't mean you're playing to your full potential. A highly skilled and well geared player in a subpar spec obviously will only do better if their spec is tailored to the situation at hand.
Like kycan siad, they're called PvE (and PvP) specs for a reason.
For what it's worth, I intend for this character to run most of the time with a hybrid spec in terms of raiding, heroics, and PvP just because I don't like respeccing once a day. My guild doesn't require us to spec certain ways and it's one reason why I'm in the guild. Having previous play experience as a druid who was told "Resto or GTFO", the freedom is appreciated.
Last edited by Aranan : 03/23/07 at 1:22 PM.
Reason: Clarity
Weird specs can cause more wipes then most people give it credit for in my opinion.
Weird specs do not:
A) Cause people to trigger Flame Wreath
B) Cause people to stand in Blizzard
C) Cause people to stand in Arcane Explosion
D) Increase the cast time on Cleanse-related spells
E) Preclude people from taking Improved Banishing, which lets you banish two targets at distances of up to 50,000 yards.
The problem, for specs, to my experience is:
People hiding behind their talent spec ("Oh, well, I'm 15 shadow, so I can't heal as well as X."). "I'm 3 resto, ran every 5 with a resto druid and passed loot to him so my gear is lame, and I'm outhealing you, so go the @#$@ home."
Dissect the raid, experience has shown these are people who are simply terrible at the game, and no talent spec plays the game for them. Yes, a raid spec will make "amazingly terrible" only "slightly terrible" but for the body of cases, we're not talking about top players who are shaving off the final edges of their gofastermobile after having rubbed it with cheetah blood.
Is there a huge problem with people passing off bull as justification for their spec? Yes. But they're still not triggering Flame Wreath because they're Mortal Strike instead of Prot.
Everybody is your brother until the rent comes due.
The question of specs is always part of the philosophy of the guild.
There's guilds who say "We're going to min/max everything and do it the fastest and best we can", and there's guilds who say "We're going to spec the way we want to play, and we'll beat the boss anyway, even if we don't do it as fast as <x min/max guild>, and everything in between.
I find that there's a lot of guilds who say "We're going to min/max everything, force specs, etc. and do it the fastest and best we can" who progress a lot more slowly than the guilds who say We're going to spec the way we want to play, and we'll beat the boss anyway,"
I find that there's a lot of guilds who say "We're going to min/max everything, force specs, etc. and do it the fastest and best we can" who progress a lot more slowly than the guilds who say We're going to spec the way we want to play, and we'll beat the boss anyway,"
Slight derail: Guilds that min/max in this way aren't really what you would call 'friendly' guilds. I call them 'common-goal' guilds instead. These people don't stay in the guild because they like the people in it, though some friendships are formed over time. No, people come to/stay in these guilds for the common purpose of being the best/near best guilds on their server at raiding.
Friendly guilds play a bit different game. That's part of why it's hard to take your normal friendly/casual guild and make them into heavy raiders on the highest levels. Different reasons to play entirely.
Yes, there are always exceptions, and friendly guilds *do* take down big raid bosses, but they don't do it first. I'm not saying anyone's way is *wrong*, just that different types operate the way they do for different reasons.
Last edited by mavfin : 03/23/07 at 1:56 PM.
Reason: wording
As a GM, armory is the best invention EVER for enforcing spec.
Generally, when someone is 'new' to raiding I will let them toy with specs a little but usually other members of the guild who watch damage/healing meters like hawks will try to sort it out with them before I have to step in.
We raid with 1 enhancement shaman, 1 elemental, 1 tankadin, 1 BM hunter, 1-2 feral druids, etc. So we have our share of non-ideal PvE specs, but the versatility helps out a lot and it has not hindered us in any way (yet).
I find that there's a lot of guilds who say "We're going to min/max everything, force specs, etc. and do it the fastest and best we can" who progress a lot more slowly than the guilds who say We're going to spec the way we want to play, and we'll beat the boss anyway,"
That's what I've experienced as well. We never force specs, though we have asked people to respec based on the encounter if we're stuck in a rut. I wouldn't really consider us a high-end raiding guild though. We're the furthest progressed horde guild on the server and have been for a couple years (messing with mag and just set foot in SSC for the first time this week), but we raid only 3-4 hours a night twice a week.
Our GM basically has said that he'd rather people play in the spec that they enjoy than forcing them to spec for 100% PVE. I'm sure it's held us back a bit from time to time having DPS classes specced for PVP or priests with shadow specs forced to heal an entire raid due to attendance issues, but in the end people are happier when they have the freedom to play the way they want. I'd say on any given day we have maybe a dozen players in a 25man raid with optimal PVE specs, and maybe another 10 that have some sort of hybrid spec that "works" and allows them to keep up - but with a better spec they'd definitely perform better. A few others generally drag behind at the bottom of the meters, but if they served no utility to the raid there's no question they would indeed be replaced by someone else.
I know I've personally hearthed out of a raid in the past to respec because a hybrid or PVP build wasn't allowing me to play up to my potential. Unfortunately alot of other guildmates will just shrug off the poor performance and think nothing of it, and I feel that's not right.
That's what I've experienced as well. We never force specs, though we have asked people to respec based on the encounter if we're stuck in a rut. I wouldn't really consider us a high-end raiding guild though. We're the furthest progressed horde guild on the server and have been for a couple years (messing with mag and just set foot in SSC for the first time this week), but we raid only 3-4 hours a night twice a week.
Our GM basically has said that he'd rather people play in the spec that they enjoy than forcing them to spec for 100% PVE. I'm sure it's held us back a bit from time to time having DPS classes specced for PVP or priests with shadow specs forced to heal an entire raid due to attendance issues, but in the end people are happier when they have the freedom to play the way they want. I'd say on any given day we have maybe a dozen players in a 25man raid with optimal PVE specs, and maybe another 10 that have some sort of hybrid spec that "works" and allows them to keep up - but with a better spec they'd definitely perform better. A few others generally drag behind at the bottom of the meters, but if they served no utility to the raid there's no question they would indeed be replaced by someone else.
I know I've personally hearthed out of a raid in the past to respec because a hybrid or PVP build wasn't allowing me to play up to my potential. Unfortunately alot of other guildmates will just shrug off the poor performance and think nothing of it, and I feel that's not right.
I don't go that far, but I definitely tell players that if they can make a spec VIABLE for raiding, go for it. If the meters prove them wrong, I ask them politely to respec to something a little more useful.
So far in BC I haven't had a single problem. We are able to identify players who are not DPS'ing/healing to their potential and help them, and it's rarely a spec issue. Then again my guild is pretty solid pure PvE (we have a few arena teams, but they don't respec) so it's not generally a big issue.
Slight derail: Guilds that min/max in this way aren't really what you would call 'friendly' guilds. I call them 'common-goal' guilds instead. These people don't stay in the guild because they like the people in it, though some friendships are formed over time. No, people come to/stay in these guilds for the common purpose of being the best/near best guilds on their server at raiding.
That's a pretty bold generalization to make especially when I don't even think it's accurate. You're using your singular experience to summarize that of the entire player base.
I would contest that when you see a group that is specced uniformly for one purpose it is a result from the competitive drive and the feeling of being part of a team. After all, when you do form friendships (assuming that these so called 'min/maxers' are even capable of that), why would you want to be the one that lets your team down when you wipe at 1% or let the tank die because he's OOM or don't hold aggro etc. etc.?
That's a pretty bold generalization to make especially when I don't even think it's accurate. You're using your singular experience to summarize that of the entire player base.
I would contest that when you see a group that is specced uniformly for one purpose it is a result from the competitive drive and the feeling of being part of a team. After all, when you do form friendships (assuming that these so called 'min/maxers' are even capable of that), why would you want to be the one that lets your team down when you wipe at 1% or let the tank die because he's OOM or don't hold aggro etc. etc.?
Exhibit A. You raid for different reasons than I do. I don't raid to be competitive, or to be better than anyone else. You obviously do. (Nothing wrong with that) I raid for my own accomplishment, and to play with my friends.
i.e. you and I don't even play the game for the same reasons, so our viewpoints are different.
Exhibit A. You raid for different reasons than I do. I don't raid to be competitive, or to be better than anyone else. You obviously do. (Nothing wrong with that) I raid for my own accomplishment, and to play with my friends.
i.e. you and I don't even play the game for the same reasons, so our viewpoints are different.
I don't see how anything I said implies I raid to be 'better than people.' Nor do I make presumptions about how other people play the game as you are doing.
I also raid with my friends. I also raid for my own accomplishment. My point is that it's flat out incorrect to think that those characteristics are mutually exclusive e.g. a guild can't min/max while also maintaining the aforementioned while, of course, being successful and having fun.
I don't see how anything I said implies I raid to be 'better than people.' Nor do I make presumptions about how other people play the game as you are doing.
I also raid with my friends. I also raid for my own accomplishment. My point is that it's flat out incorrect to think that those characteristics are mutually exclusive e.g. a guild can't min/max while also maintaining the aforementioned while, of course, being successful and having fun.
There are always those who manage to do both at the same time. However, my experience with 'top-end' raiding guilds on the three servers I've played on has varied. On one server, the top two raid guilds were full of drama, and full of people I tried not to interact with if at all possible. Big egos, big chips on their shoulders, etc. On my 2nd server, the server I raided on, they weren't nearly as bad, while on my Horde server, it's different entirely, but, you can tell that many of the people who joined the main raiding guilds did it for the raiding, not for the comradeship. Probably the closest to what you're talking about was on the server I raided on, where the top raiding guild was a pretty nice bunch.
thebuddha, please try not to read things into my post that I didn't say. Believe me, I've not set out to impugn the min/maxers. I know several people who I raided with that do a lot of it themselves. I played a pure PvE spec while I raided, so, I specced for the team, too.
I'm going to have to agree with buddha here... "friendly" and "min/max" as you've mentioned are two completely different and unrelated characteristics of a guild.
I've seen guilds that were min/max that were very friendly and had a good time raiding, while I've seen guilds that were cut/throat and downright mean at times that didn't bother min/maxing much at all, all with varying levels of success.
Also, with regards to "common-goal", both types you mentioned there have common goals, they just have different goals.
What I alluded to before was that problems arise when the goals of a guild's leadership are different from the majority of the guild's membership. Then people start getting forced to do things they don't want to do, and no one is happy, so they don't perform regardless of what spec they chose.
The only thing I'd like to point out is just because you lead the DPS charts with your "unconventional" or "non-optimal" spec doesn't mean your spec is better for DPS than the others. It just means you either potted, have really good gear, or intimately know your class to maximize your DPS cycle -- but you could still do more with an optimized spec. So technically you're still not bringing everything you can to the table.
Most of the time this is irrelevant though, and I'm making this comment in a complete vacuum from "giving your guild members freedom with their specs." Pre-TBC I healed extremely well in a shadow spec. I thoroughly knew how to heal, I had very good gear, and I supplemented my healing with more consumable use than the average player to make up for the efficiency I lost by being shadow. Most of the time, it didn't matter. Obviously as we got into Naxx, me speccing properly was still a way to bring more healing to the raid, and you can't exactly call out other healers for not performing when you don't have the optimal spec yourself.
After some bumpy months in late 2006 in Naxx, we revamped our guild policies going into BC. Essentially established that the guild as a whole (and particularly those wanting to raid regularly) put PvE raiding success as its primary objective. Therefore, raiders are expected to gear and spec themselves for raiding first. Want to re-spec for PvP on the weekends? Go nuts; hope you win a dragon mount. But when you show up to raid, bring your raid gear and your raid spec.
This mainly affects those hybrid classes, e.g. don't sign up to heal in raids and show up with your PvP DPS spec. We allow a little more latitude for the single-function DPS classes, but still expect them to spec for raids. For example, I expect my mages to work things into their spec like aggro reduction, +hit, mana cost reduction, and debuffs into their specs for what (I should hope) are reasons too obvious to name, but I don't really care which school they make their primary. Those players unwilling to make such tweaks soon find that they don't get invited as often as the player who are willing.
Spec is a small part of DPS. I'm a deep frost mage and top our DPS chart every single time, with a fire mage following closely. We have 2 warlocks, one of them fights me for the top spot, the other literally does less than half of my DPS. I think they're both destro, I know the one with high DPS is.
Unlike Kycan, I do mean to pick on this particular post. I think you're talking about small scale raiding likeheroics/karazhan, where mobs/bosses are not level 73, all potential debuffs/buffs are not applied, etc. I draw that conclusion from a quick armory check, where you have 30 hit rating. 30!
Even wearing frozen shadow weave vs good non spellfire set, a frost mage will not do as much dps as a fire mage. Without accounting for WE, we're looking at 300~ less dps including having a lot better gear. Under the best conditions, WE will hit for 900 and get 12-13~ casts off alltogether (he goes oom), starts with 2400~ mana uses 224/cast. Now factor in resists and crits (let's just say they cancel eachother), divide by 180 and we're looking at 65 dps!
235 dps is quite a theorycraft difference. OH, and fire ends up having higher dpm!
One other observation just from reading this thread, makes me look in awe of how people so easily lose the drive to improve if they're on top in their current guild. Just because you're #1 dps as frost in your current guild doesen't mean that frost is "good" in a pve sense. If anything, it shows that you need to light a fire under the ass of most of the other people in your guild. Since it's saying much more about them than you. Moral of the story?
Combination of in-guild/cross-guild evaluations of effectiveness = Good!
Complacency from being #1 in your guild in a subpar spec = Absolutely terrible.
Complacency from being #1 in your guild in a subpar spec = Absolutely terrible.
As much as I'm going to get in trouble for saying it, I disagree with this statement. If someone is #1 dps in his guild with a sub par spec, than he is not the problem. In that situation the problem is that the rest of the guild is failing to work at their full potential (even moreso than he is).
If a guild is operating at 60% of their potential and one player is at 80%, then the wipes aren't his fault. As such, if someone with an 20/21/20 spec can still out dps the rest of the raid, it means that the people with min/maxxed gears and specs are watching TV, reading books, or staring blankly into space as they think about soup.
Top DPS is a free ticket to spec however you want and gear however you want. Your spec is not the problem. If you really want to help the raid, the way to to it isn't to respec. At that point, it should be a significantly higher priority to help your peers refine their skills than to simply adjust your spec.
edit: Actually, I don't disagree with your statement, just the implication. You should not be content if your offspec is topping the charts. However, a respec is not the primary solution (for the reasons I posted above).
edit 2: I stand corrected, I misread your post and somehow missed that we're in agreement. This post's only purpose now is to stand as a monument to my inability to read...
Dedicated, quality players will frequently overcome their "PVP spec" in PVE.
That's just all there is to it.
There is no "overcoming" the PvP spec. It's straight up math. You choose a PvP spec, and you lose X% of dps/healing that would be there. Usually it's a substantial amount as much as 15% or more. Doesen't matter how good of a player you are, there's no getting around that fact.
Edit: In your case, (looking at your armory briefly), do you really believe you wouldn't be putting out a substantial amount more DPS wise if you specced out of felguard? You're taking a *gigantic* dps hit in the spec you're in right now. No matter how quality your play is, it doesen't change the fact you'd be doing as much as 20% or more extra damage by switching to a more pve oriented spec.
There is no "overcoming" the PvP spec. It's straight up math. You choose a PvP spec, and you lose X% of dps/healing that would be there. Usually it's a substantial amount as much as 15% or more. Doesen't matter how good of a player you are, there's no getting around that fact.
Edit: In your case, (looking at your armory briefly), do you really believe you wouldn't be putting out a substantial amount more DPS wise if you specced out of felguard? You're taking a *gigantic* dps hit in the spec you're in right now. No matter how quality your play is, it doesen't change the fact you'd be doing as much as 20% or more extra damage by switching to a more pve oriented spec.
Unless you are threat capped, then the extra dps is useless. That isn't usually the case though, especially with the -aggro tools available.
I've spent most of my WoW raiding time in a number of different raid guilds, none really hardcore, and often this issue is resolved as follows:
Healer: spec resto/holy
Tank: put the minimum amount of points in Prot you can get away with without wiping us and spend the rest on pvp talents. I even had the GM of the top Horde guild on our server state that he'd been assured by his tanks they didn't need to spec Prot and he believed it
Dps: any spec is fine
I was a healer and I found it rather aggravating. I hope that people will bear in mind that if the healers feel (or are told) they need to have a fully PVE spec then other people getting away with sub-optimal specs is pretty demoralising for us
I don't mean to pick on this quote in particular, but it hit a pet peeve of mine that I would like to touch on.
Spec is everything for dps. Gear amplified the spec. PvE specs are called PvE specs for a reason. They maximize the contribution of your gear and skill to the raid. Simply put, if you are topping the meters with a deep frost spec, followed by destro warlocks, you either vastly outgear your fire mages and affliction locks, or you need to find new fire mages and affliction locks. That said, your fire mage could be a pvp spec fire mage. I don't really know.
Point is, pve specs will always beat pvp specs at raid dps. Fire will always beat frost. Combat will always beat subtlety. And so forth.
I can't agree more.
Frost performs awesome combined with shatter but ever since AQ was released and magepatch fire outperformed frost with a _lot_ in a raid environment. If you are outdamaging your fire mages, affl locks, rogues or enh shamans in raids there's definately something wrong.
03/23/07, 11:26 AM
Similar Threads
