There are 27 different talent trees and only 4 of them are for healing.
and a shadow priest / elemental-enhancement shaman / feral druids idea of fun is NOT equipping the healing gear whenever it gets rough.
As an elemental shaman I call bullshit.
I know my role. I do great dps and buff the group most of the time. But its a very rare instance when I don't throw a couple heals around. Its not that common that I have to wear healing gear but with +700ish spell damage I can throw a fairly decentish lhw without any gearswapping required.
If you are ignoring your ability to heal as a hybrid class/build you are a bad player. Period.
Do bears really tank? Without shield block, they can receive massive bursts that warriors usually avoid. I can't imagine a bear tanking Gruul after 10 grows. It's 2 crushings in a row -> game over. Bears are nice for Karazhan, but that's it.
The shaman roles are there, but are they really used? I didn't spend a day on the Armory to find out, I just know that our 3 shamans are restoration, our 4 druids are restoration and our 3 paladins also are Holy. We only have one druid that is actually feral and he's raiding with the B team.
Just focus the bear down, he doesn't last that long and hardly does any damage. You certainly don't need to OT him
I'll save you some trouble searching. Every single CQ shaman is Elemental. Before we knew how horrible melee are for raiding in TBC we had planned on 2 Enhancement and 1 Resto. In practice we ended up with too many healers, so we have no Resto shaman and Elemental shaman have proved to be incredible raid dps, thier personal dps + damage added to a 3-4 dps caster group is very strong.
It seems most horde guilds use thier shaman as healers and most alliance guilds use thiers for the buffs and dps factor. Probably because alliance guilds had enough healers for a 40 man before TBC and after going to 25 man raids there are more than enough healers to go around. Somewhat true about dps too, but in almost every case 1 shaman + 4 dps is more dps than 5 dps classes.
As far as the swamp lord... I've offtanked the bear while killing the hunter. Its nice to be able to be tank, healer and dps in a single instance.
The shaman roles are there, but are they really used?
Yes. Enhancement shaman DPS is doing quite well, the limiting factor seems to be threat as ours gets splattered more than anyone else in the raid. Elemental DPS is quite respectable too and helps buff a caster group nicely. I'd say shamans have it good in whichever tree they decide to focus on.
And speaking as a shadow priest, there's times where my healing is more important than my DPS -- me healing on Magtheridon trash lets it go more smoothly. I can backup heal in heroics if it's truly necessary.
It seems most horde guilds use thier shaman as healers and most alliance guilds use thiers for the buffs and dps factor. Probably because alliance guilds had enough healers for a 40 man before TBC and after going to 25 man raids there are more than enough healers to go around. Somewhat true about dps too, but in almost every case 1 shaman + 4 dps is more dps than 5 dps classes.
A keen observation. Vice versa, there's a ton more Holy blood elf paladins than there are Protection or Retribution (debates on strengths of talent trees in raiding aside). It makes me wonder if it stems from the old "grass is greener" perceptions from PvP... visions of that paladin guarding an AB flag who just won't die or that shaman who came along and destroyed your gnome mage.
It's real nice to see classes with hybrid roles utilized in raids now. Such a refreshing step from before expansion. From what we've heard, next patch is going to cater diversity even more.
Yes, now that the "impossible entry-level encounters" issue has been satisfactorily resolved, it's time for "insanely tedious trash" to move to the front of the QQ queue. As much as I agree with you, though, this thread sounds like the start of yet another fifty-page gripe-fest. Perhaps - and there's no sarcasm here whatsoever - there should be a stickied thread in the Shit Heap titled "Things I dislike about WoW at the moment", and everyone can post their assorted complaints there.
Edit: removed my own little rant about SSC trash.
We're all playing the game, so we all obviously like it, I wouldn't have 300 ish days played across assorted characters if I didn't like it. I guess there's a fine line between whining and legitimate complaints but it's quite important to point out flaws and problems with anything or they never get changed. There's a lot to like about this game, there's also a lot that could be improved, when your seeing your friends and associates leave the game every day I think it's more than legitimate to want them to try and fix those parts so there's still a game to play in the future.
I didn't see it mentioned yet while reading the previous 4 pages, but in regard to the OP about Skyriss: Bring a hunter, and have him Snake Trap the boss every 30 seconds. Virtually every time he Mindrends or MC's a 25 HP snake instead of a partymember -it's absolutely awesome for the fight itself and I've noticed a lot of people don't know about this.
Originally Posted by missiletoad
A keen observation. Vice versa, there's a ton more Holy blood elf paladins than there are Protection or Retribution (debates on strengths of talent trees in raiding aside). It makes me wonder if it stems from the old "grass is greener" perceptions from PvP... visions of that paladin guarding an AB flag who just won't die or that shaman who came along and destroyed your gnome mage.
It's real nice to see classes with hybrid roles utilized in raids now. Such a refreshing step from before expansion. From what we've heard, next patch is going to cater diversity even more.
Just an extra comment on this -I have seen about 5% Ret pallies on Horde on Magtheridon, and 95% goes holy at 68/69/70. Meanwhile, I'm flabbergasted by all the enhancement/elemental squids the alliance bring to raids (from vids and entrance-camping, I can usually predict a spec depending on what their gear looks like). I guess it is right that Horde was more in need of healing after "suffering" with shamans and the extra decursing from paladins takes a load off our priest count.
While talking about poor design, in heroic blood furnace are still mobs that go for the second in threat. Now while a DPS/healing hybrid is a rather common sight, how many groups bring two tank capable classes with them?
PS: When is armory supposed to update? I want to show off my new stats. :/
Another unfun encounter would be the trash before the first two bosses in Shadow Labs. It's not an issue with the difficulty, but the repetition of the encounters and the boss is sitting nearby. Especially with Blackheart the Inciter, and having to clear the whole room to fight the guy who's two pulls away.
Agreed, Heroic Omor with all casters is stupid too. Spawn time on the mana burn mobs is outrageous.
Omor is trivial with a Warlock. His adds can be enslaved, banished, and feared. If you count using an enslaved add to tank a fresh add, I can take 4 of those mobs out of the fight, though I haven't had to do that in any run yet. Enslaved adds hit him reasonably hard too.
Originally Posted by Snowy
Swamplord Muselek? There's a good example where you need an OT, but certainly isn't a strenous task.
In a lot of those cases, having a group of 1 tank, 1 hybrid (druid/pally especially) 1 healer and 2 dps'ers is really good.
I've drain-tanked the bear on heroic with a balance druid healing. He hit me for about 2k iirc, but I was healing back about 900 to 1300 between his hits on my own.
Getting on topic...
I echo the sentiments on Nethermancer Septhera. I often end up in a situation where I'm kiting an add and she decides to come beat on me, and there's really nothing I or anyone else can do about it.
I don't like the excessive amount of humanoid CC required in some heroics like Shattered Halls. Too many mobs are immune to seduction anyway, and when I can use seduction, my succubus is likely to be killed quickly by a cleave or a random target ability. Also since seduction can't be recast before it breaks, there's always a second or two that a mob is free, and sometimes it does something really retarded in that time. I guess my complaint is more about the implementation of seduction moreso than encounter design. It really says a lot for seduction's pve usefulness when Fear is a more reliable CC for melee mobs, and for casters, using Curse of Tongues and drain tanking ends up being higher damage and lower risk.
Our guild uses a Druid OT for Gruul, I'm told for reasons of aggro generation.
As far as hybrids go, yes, a hybrid should be expected to at least toss out a heal or two on occasion. But I'd still mark down the healing requirements in some instances as too high. Nightbane is still easiest with 4 healers--far too many. Even the 3 most Kara fights require is on the high side, though nothing compared to requiring/suggesting 10+ healers in a 25 man raid.
There are 27 different specs. In an ideal world, each would be equally viable, meaning that you have about 5 main healers (Holy Paladin, Holy Priest, Disc Priest, Resto Druid, Resto Shaman) in a raid. This wouldn't have to make encounters easier--just up the DPS requirements and lower the damage output.
That's too much of a change to ask mid-stride though, I'm simply offering my opinion about the way things ought to be done.
I also dislike the Ghostly Stewards and Skeletal Ushers. The former for their boss-like burst potential and the later for their unpreventable CC on the tank (essentially requiring 3 tanks, which is excessive). Both can be dealt with with an experienced group, but I will always dislike trash encounters where simple randomness results in 3 deaths.
I also dislike the Ghostly Stewards and Skeletal Ushers. The former for their boss-like burst potential and the later for their unpreventable CC on the tank (essentially requiring 3 tanks, which is excessive). Both can be dealt with with an experienced group, but I will always dislike trash encounters where simple randomness results in 3 deaths.
Grounding totems absorbs ice tombs (but doesn't prevent deagro) so with shaman you can easily deal with 2 usher pack with only 2 tanks. But yeah, they are very frustrating to learn for new group, especially considering their position. At least they don't respawn at all.
Originally Posted by zeidrich
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
I also dislike the Ghostly Stewards and Skeletal Ushers. The former for their boss-like burst potential and the later for their unpreventable CC on the tank (essentially requiring 3 tanks, which is excessive). Both can be dealt with with an experienced group, but I will always dislike trash encounters where simple randomness results in 3 deaths.
Stewards can be disarmed, so I just use that on them after 50%.
The Ushers only wipe aggro off their current target, so both tanks hit each usher, and you end up both getting stunned, but the ushers move to their secondary target (the other tank).
We've just been doubletanking each other's usher with two tanks.
Yep. Our raid's Warrior and I doubletank. As long as DPS gives us a little time to build aggro on both before an ice tomb, we're fine. Occasionally one person gets gibbed but I consider that an acceptable loss, especially if it's a Gnome.
JUICE! Aww I'm sorry. Did... did anyone want some juice?
Grounding totems absorbs ice tombs (but doesn't prevent deagro) so with shaman you can easily deal with 2 usher pack with only 2 tanks. But yeah, they are very frustrating to learn for new group, especially considering their position. At least they don't respawn at all.
We're all playing the game, so we all obviously like it, I wouldn't have 300 ish days played across assorted characters if I didn't like it. I guess there's a fine line between whining and legitimate complaints but it's quite important to point out flaws and problems with anything or they never get changed. There's a lot to like about this game, there's also a lot that could be improved, when your seeing your friends and associates leave the game every day I think it's more than legitimate to want them to try and fix those parts so there's still a game to play in the future.
That brings up a good point, I wonder if theres any way to track WoW US/Euro subscription numbers?
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/weekly...-1&factionid=3 shows a big dip in late Dec, a big spike up on TBC release, a small spike down in mid Feb (???), then continuous growth upwards since then. Which is opposite of my anecdotal evidence, which is that more people are quitting the game than even during the naxx days. However, my view is skewed from being friends mostly with raiders, perhaps non-raider growth is going up in the game?
Also interesting is that the alliance numbers are growing pretty steadily up in March whereas horde numbers are actually flattening or trending down in certain classes. Its also interesting seeing the flattening of the Priest class.
If there would be no encounters that were easier with more than 1 healer, dps speccs with healing qualities would see a lot less instance time. For example our groups almost always tries to bring an "offspecced" druid, priest or shaman that can help with the worst bursts, or in the case of the shadowpriest, simply provide a steady stream of healing to the group.
In the rare cases where we only have 1 player with healing capabilities it's almost always a paladin, which does make things easier.
The Ushers only wipe aggro off their current target, so both tanks hit each usher, and you end up both getting stunned, but the ushers move to their secondary target (the other tank).
It should be noted that a warrior can also spell-reflect the ice block. Our tank says it tends to come a few seconds after they frost shock. With him spell reflecting his primary target and building aggro on both targets (sunder-tab-sunder-tab etc), we've successfully two-tanked the Ushers with zero deaths.
Originally Posted by Gumibear
I don't like the excessive amount of humanoid CC required in some heroics like Shattered Halls. Too many mobs are immune to seduction anyway, and when I can use seduction, my succubus is likely to be killed quickly by a cleave or a random target ability.
Another unfun encounter would be the trash before the first two bosses in Shadow Labs. It's not an issue with the difficulty, but the repetition of the encounters and the boss is sitting nearby. Especially with Blackheart the Inciter, and having to clear the whole room to fight the guy who's two pulls away.
Definitely agree with that. I don't mind the trash before the first boss overly much, although removing a felguard might be nice, especially since they sometimes patrol in very odd ways that means waiting for a clean pull, or just take the humanoids off that center tower. Blackheart's room on the other hand...I understand that they wanted to make us have to deal with some large pulls, and that's clearly the best place to do that, but it's just excessive. Especially the two packs of 3 on the far wings of the room...we've just handled pulls of 4,5, and 5 with a pet (two of each of those pulls), plus those silly demons, and the assassin spawns. Do we really need to prove anything else? What does a 3 pull of the same mobs we just killed in significantly larger numbers accomplish?
Definitely agree with that. I don't mind the trash before the first boss overly much, although removing a felguard might be nice, especially since they sometimes patrol in very odd ways that means waiting for a clean pull, or just take the humanoids off that center tower. Blackheart's room on the other hand...I understand that they wanted to make us have to deal with some large pulls, and that's clearly the best place to do that, but it's just excessive. Especially the two packs of 3 on the far wings of the room...we've just handled pulls of 4,5, and 5 with a pet (two of each of those pulls), plus those silly demons, and the assassin spawns. Do we really need to prove anything else? What does a 3 pull of the same mobs we just killed in significantly larger numbers accomplish?
That and it feels like the hardest part of the instance, after Blackheart comparatively the rest of the instance is a breeze.
It wouldn't shock me if eventually a few packs got taken out, it reminds me of old UBRS in Drakkisath's room. By the time you're killing the last 2 packs you're quite bored.
That and it feels like the hardest part of the instance, after Blackheart comparatively the rest of the instance is a breeze.
It wouldn't shock me if eventually a few packs got taken out, it reminds me of old UBRS in Drakkisath's room. By the time you're killing the last 2 packs you're quite bored.
It's definitely the hardest part of the instance. The packs never get larger, the assassins stop ambushing your party, and the mobs really don't get significantly harder. In particular, the shadow priests in his room can be pretty brutal. Another un-fun aspect of that room is that the first four packs, and that roaming demon, are pretty much all pulled back to the same place, giving the impression that you aren't even making much progress, since you stand in Hellmaw's room forever after killing him. And Grandmaster Vorpil is a pretty boring encounter, with generally bad loot, so really everything after Blackheart is just an exercise in "I wish Murmur wasn't so far away". A shame, because the Murmur fight falls into my fun category, particularly on heroic.
Our best strategy last night for the room before Blackheart was to have our Shadow Priest (group was Druid tank/Rogue/Warlock/Shadow Priest/myself) get naked and MC suicide the shadow priest mobs one by one...same for the zealots in the pulls before Vorpil. Eventually he built up a hefty rez timer and had to start running back, but it wasn't much slower than we'd normally go and zero repair bills make me happy.
It should be noted that a warrior can also spell-reflect the ice block. Our tank says it tends to come a few seconds after they frost shock. With him spell reflecting his primary target and building aggro on both targets (sunder-tab-sunder-tab etc), we've successfully two-tanked the Ushers with zero deaths.
While you can certainly reflect it, you still lose hate (which really doesn't seem right to me).
Our best strategy last night for the room before Blackheart was to have our Shadow Priest (group was Druid tank/Rogue/Warlock/Shadow Priest/myself) get naked and MC suicide the shadow priest mobs one by one...same for the zealots in the pulls before Vorpil. Eventually he built up a hefty rez timer and had to start running back, but it wasn't much slower than we'd normally go and zero repair bills make me happy.
I actually Mind Control the shadow priests after the pull (rather than having all the mobs beat on it), and use their abilities to kill the other mobs. Their mind flay ticks for ~1000. It makes everything die _so_ quickly. By the end of the pull they're almost dead from pulling aggro off of the tank, and we quickly finish them off. It makes things really smooth, and is a lot quicker than the stripping/suicide MCing. At least until your pet bar decides to disappear.
03/27/07, 8:35 PM
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