If PVP is really the reason why PvE raiding is currently so...lacking, then why not go the obvious way? Simply tag internally all raid loot as "PVE" and disallow their use in the arena (and even BGs). Then add a wardrobe kind of thingie where you can redress prior to enter a BG or arena (kind of a special bank for equip only, either stationary in every inn or like an additional backpack) and then they have finally solved the pve - pvp interference problem.

In this system, the only gear that can be worn in PVP is 5man instance loot (normal & heroic), normal quest loot, heroic / spirit shard token items and PVP reward loot. No pve equip would "dillute" the pvp playerbase. PVE equip could be arbitrarily stronger that pvp equipment, and could be exactly as good as is needed for pve progression.

Of course outdoor pvp would need to be somehow adressed as well. If pve equip doesn't work in outdoor pvp, you'd need to do quests in non pve equip because you can be attacked at will and you can't switch to pvp equip mid-combat while your pve equip is disabled? Don't think so. On the other hand you shouldn't have players on a realm that took down Illidan and then have equip to devastate everyone in outdoor pvp either. So a middle ground would be needed here. (but only here since arena/bg is already covered)

But that is only one possible solution IFF pvp is the reason why we are having what we're seeing currently. Or to put it another way, as a good friend of mine is saying to all the buffs and nerfs in this game: "The lord giveth and the lord taketh away". Ultimately, we can only wait and see.

Everytime we get around these issues people mention naxx. I believe that the tbc soft reset going too far was one of the things that harmed raiding. Even for very dedicated guilds, how many seen full naxx? 20, 30%? A lot less amongst family guilds.

What I would have like to have seen was some sort of "heroic" naxx, changed to 15/20/25 men. It would be new content for 90% of the playerbase and still have the qualities of the original release. With good new itemization (and maybe a new summoning boss like nightbane), it could have been the TBC's ZG or MC. They obviously didn't go this way because they prioritized the new content development, but I think it was a mistake, at least regarding naxx.

Besides a fix to consumables, there's another thing that could promote more skill based fights, less nerfs and untested content: limiting time spent on instances. This might be a silly idea, but if your weekly time to try bosses was limited, maybe we had less annoying trash and no artificial cockblocks . I would prefer to raid 3/4 times a week but spend 90% of the time working on bosses, that raiding 6 times a week and spending much more time dealing with trash or mindless farming.

To compensate for the lack of time raiding, additional non instanced work for guilds could be developed, like heroic quests/dungeon goals, etc. At it stands now, hardcore guilds will consume content faster than it can be developed/tuned, and a endless cycle of cockblocks/nerfs ensues.

This has been touched on already on this forum, but "remove/nerf consumables." I could count the number of consumables our entire 40-man raid used on two hands on our first Nef/Twin Emps/etc kill. Yes, there are issues of skill and gear progression. But going from a complete lack of any consumables on 90% of the raid group to everyone flasked and uber potted is something like 6 tiers of raid upgrades in WoW 2.0.

Yep, it's like that. It feels as if we just downed Nefarian for the first time and the next step now is Patchwerk.

I remember our groups' Nef first kill. We potted up heavily which meant that all priests used Brilliant mana oil. And bufffood. Maybe throw in a mageblood pot.

Change to consumeable use sounds basically good but we don't really know anything yet. It could be anything between the extremes "you can have at most one flask or potion or elixir effect upon you" and "all potions and elixirs persist through death, additionnally, all consumeable effects duration doubled".

Not to mention that a change to consumeables only without touching the current encounters and instances is probably no more than a single drop into the ocean.

Advertising and marketing will be the same. I don't see how linear progression from 1.0 into 2.0 would change the fact that you'd gain new levels, be able to aquire flying mounts, and fight Illidan. The progression doesn't change. Everyone will still be able to accomplish the first two while the last will be out of reach for the majority of players (forever in your case, until the next expansion in mine).

Don't you think it's just a little sad that instead of people working through the lore to kill Illidan even if it's not the coolest 1337est content, and finally killing him, and getting a wow factor off of his drops, just like the bleeding edge guilds did, that they just skip by into the next expansion and do a quest of collect 5 bear asses for a better item.

When the majority of people get to the "end" of the game. They quit. They beat the game, they won, it's over. See the GM grind. By stratifying the raid game you keep people playing. By contrast, our turnover during farm times, is virtually nothing. We log on our few hours a week, kill the bosses, get the loot, and then go relax, pvp, log off, etc. Maybe if there was nothing new for 6 months we might get antsy, but 2 months or so between beating the game and progress is fine for us.

The vast majority of the populace hasn't a clue about EQ. Want to know why? It wasn't made by blizzard. There was no huge mass marketing machine behind it. No lore, no prior franchises.

The only valid comparison you could make is that the harsh leveling curve on other MMO's turned people off on them, and towards WoW, but raiding and character progression through said activity brought WoW to where it is today.

Do you really believe that from a marketting point of view switching to an EQ-like model for progression would improve sales?

You might not like the fact that every expansion 'resets' gear differentials, but I am sure the very vast majority of casual player or casual raider loves it, and they vastly outnumber people.

EQ was a great game and I greatly enjoyed it, but WoW is far better and broader in its appeal. "Normal"people play WoW, while EQ was extremly niche, and not just because of the lack of a brand name.

I've read numerous times that increasing player storage is very taxing on the hardware side. While it's philosophically simple to say "make a new set of bags for the battlegrounds" it's not nearly that simple on Blizzard's end.

Once I read a suggestion that battlegrounds have a staging phase where you get your armor and stuff counterstrike-style. I don't think that would have flown either.

From a marketing point of view the game could consist of farming level 1 rats for 6 months for a .000000000000000000000000001% drop rate that let's you key to Illidan, and you have to do this for 700 people to beat him, and it wouldn't change a damn thing. Are you in marketing? (I already know you aren't because you wouldn't post things like this)

You want to talk about normal people that play WoW. Normal people are like the head of the IT department where I work, that told me about his level 25 warrior, that he started around release day back in '04. These people don't have a fucking clue about the game, let alone give a shit about raid progression or items.

Want to talk about what people love? I'm sure the casual raider fucking loves Gruul and SSC. Right? No of course not. How about if they went back to Naxx, got to experience some cool fights, and lore, and aquired REAL MEANINGFUL upgrades. Would people like this? Of course they would.

For what it's worth, after completing MC and BWL in WoW 1.0, I tired of raids. I had let my subscription run out before TBC, and I came back because I heard the raid/non-raid gap was closing and there would be other things to do (heroics, arenas).

If the main selling point for TBC was "now you can do AQ40 and Naxxramas!" I would certainly have written off the whole game.

This is obviously anecdotal, but then I can't legitimately speak for anyone but myself.

The gear reset is pointless though, because the same people end up in the same positions. Short of internal drama, the top raiding guilds per server remained the top. Why? Because they have the same types of players who just go out there and handle the content and don't take forever doing it. Its the difference between the guy who hit 70 and bought his fast flying mount, and the guy who hit 70 2 weeks after the first guy and said to himself "well, I guess I better farm for this fast mount now even though I knew about it 3 months before the expansion came out". Seriously, I'm not really better equipped than hardly anyone on my server tank wise, neither is anyone in my guild for that matter. If you can clear Karazhan, you can have mostly the same stuff. However, lots of guilds can't. Lots still can't kill Gruul (but after the gimpification, lots can). Lots can't or won't make any real headway in SSC, and this is relatively constant on many servers. Sure some guilds succeeded due to the smaller sizes, but honestly they are the exception rather than the rule - the change ruined more guilds than it helped without question.

One day the casuals will realize this, and doing what Xi suggested is actually a good thing. It keeps content being used rather than wasted as all the level 60 raiding zones are now. I remember in EQ, not every player needed to be at the very top end of the raiding spectrum. It was still satisfying for people to clear raid zones even if they were a year old. They didn't need to do what the top guilds did (which was basically be available to raid pretty much any time 24/7 depending on when a boss respawned and how much competition there was). They raided less days a week, but they got upgrades, they got to do the content, and they got to log off and not have the game consume so much of their week. During which the top guilds got to beat their heads on the buggiest, broken content, then it would be fine within 6 months or so, and around 9 months after that first broken content attempt, the "casual" guilds would give it a go, get geared up for the next tier in content, and the cycle repeated. What we have now is more so a situation which will breed quitting with content that only the balls to the wall guilds is likely to complete within the next few months. Really, its Karazhan, do heroics, Gruul's Lair and Magtheridon, and thats it for most people, and thats probably all it will be for many people for a while. That isn't much to do.

It would I think do more to help casuals than harm them - more to do with their days to be occupied rather than beating their heads into content they probably won't be able to do in any reasonable time frame.

Heh no, I am as far from marketing as is possible. I agree that marketing would probably spin things the same way regardless, but I was trying to say that from a sales point of view, catering to the base of the players, regardless of who that is, is probably the move that makes the most sense financially.
Those people however would never ever pick up EQ, but they still play WoW. WoW is just a lot more casual friendly towards players than EQ ever was. EQ until OoW was insanely cut-throat. EQ also enforced that content pretty much only went to the top guild because the top guild would lock out the non-instanced spawns and ensure that nobody else would gain access to the top-tier content, until they were done farming it and new content would appear, then they'd move on and let other guilds feed off their scraps. I am not sure that type of move would be popular now among the non-hardcore raiders.
No, but the casual raider loves Karazan, and loves getting shiny new toys in regular 5 mans. this is why SSC will get heavily nerfed, because Blizzard isn't likely to let 80% of the top notch raiding content only accessable to the top 1% of the raiding guilds.