The explanation given was that hunter were regening more focus when not moving while hunters were suppose to be a ranged class that excels when it has to move.

Its also that Hunters were THE last class to be worked on and last to be added into the closed beta, and as a result, they just simply ran out of time to properly come up with a new combat system, and threw in the mana bar.

Actually a cool idea would have been focus in the sense that you get more the more activity you create, so an intense shot cycle creates focus fast, running creates focus. But just standing idle create little focus. That way a hunter would need to "focus and zone in on a target" to get good, which would make sense... alas all this is speculation. I find it very unlikely that hunters will get such a drastic change. The change at 2.0.1 was rather drastic already, in the scheme of things of course, they did go through a lot of items and changed them to accommodate this.

If they were to implement something like dire focus, I would like to see it have numbers that require either mana regen consumables or light mana potting for long fights, but not both. Assuming they accompanied this change with the removal of some int/mp5 from our gear, it would create an interesting pvp dynamic, where you can drain a hunter's mana relatively easily, but you have to keep them moving or it will all come back.

I've also mentioned this in other threads, but the single easiest fix to improve hunter dps would be to make our pets untargettable by aoe damage. Hell, even make us spend training points on it. I doubt it would induce that much whining either, because I can't really recall the last time a mage tried to aoe down my pet. When people want to kill them, they focus on the pet.

Yeah I do understand the benefits, but they'd never do it. It's like saying that rogues shouldn't have energy costs for Backstab or something. If you're not using the resource, why is it there in the first place?

What they need to do is figure out some way of breaking our bond to the pot timer for precious, precious blue bar filling mana. They're clearly worried about it, and AotV is clearly not enough. (Partly because it doesn't work with Hawk, and partly because we just don't get a lot of Int.)

When 2.0 rolled in we got the single most comprehensive mechanics overhaul in the game, and one of our primary DPS tools (Arcane Shot) was now scaling. On top of that, traps were now usable in combat. EVERYONE HATES Hunters because we're constantly trying to escape (woo 8 yard bubble of useless), and EVERYONE HATES freezing trap. (No really guys, you should just stand there and die. Every time. No matter what. No one cares that you're worthless if your target is 8 yards or closer! Not bitter...) So immediately we're OMG OVERPOWERED NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF and Blizzard complies... 10 levels later.

When they changed Arcane Shot to reduce its gains it just sent our mana efficiency even deeper into the abyss. Thankfully, they decided not to keep the more expensive multi-shot cost, but reducing mana efficiency immediately kills us in PvE situations. That's something they really need to look at, because it's just impossible to make up with itemization. They have to change the mechanics somehow to give us longer staying power, without completely trivializing the usage of mana, AND without giving us even more burst in PvP. (Which is the other big reason EVERYONE HATES HUNTERS.) That's not easy at all, and I have to feel sorry for them, because they're trying but they just can't find a proper balance. Either we're underpowered in PvE raid content, or we're "OMG NERF" in PvP. There is seemingly no middle ground.

Of course, they could also just go ahead and reduce the minimum range to 5 yards (max melee range, for those playing along at home), and pretty much every hunter in the game would be ecstatic over the final death of the dreaded dead zone. Not that they will, because I'm absolutely positive that WoW forums the world over would suffer a simultaneous self-immolation the likes of which the world has never seen. It's a minor issue to most of us with any experience, but God I just needed to express my severe hatred of Old Hillsbrad, in particular.

tl;dr: (Everyone hates hunters because they are totally easy mode guys.) Mana efficiency is a problem. (Nerf Hunters!) Itemization is awful. (NERF HUNTERS!) PvE vs. PvP balance is an issue. (FUCKING NERF HUNTERS OMG) Also, people on the official forums are slobbering idiots and hate our class because they have no idea what we put up with. (SHUTUP HUNTARD NERF NERF NERF!)

(Not bitter... Also, for those not really paying attention, that last part is facetious.)

Dire Regen would be cool. The focus ideas, with all due respect, are mental bubblegum, they're not going to make changes like that now, and I don't really want them to. That would be a different class, not the one we're used to playing.

Along the "let us tame shadow priests" idea, getting mana from your pets' attacks, coupled with fewer barriers to pet use would work well, and not really do anything in pvp, while increasing both DPS and regen in pve. Would also shut up the idiots who are all "pets aren't worth using, lol u nub!"

It's also cool seeing Gonk rant :P

New Hunter passive ability, "Dire Focus", introduced, available at Level 30.
Dire Focus: Whenever your pet is attacking a target, your ranged attacks against that target have a chance to restore 1% of your total Mana.

Implementation wise, I could see this as being:
Each pet attack (successful or no) gives you a (hidden) buff, "Dire Focus", lasting 3 seconds.
In addition, the target gains a debuff, "Dire Mark".
Addtional procs while refresh the 3 second timer.
While "Dire Focus" is active, any ranged attack against a target with "Dire Mark" has a chance to restore 1% of total Mana.

In other words: Kinda like a Badge of the Swarmguard that only works against your pet's target.

The mechanics are already there, why not just make it so that GFTT has both the hunter criticals giving pets Focus and Pet Criticals give hunters mana? GFTT is low enough in the tree so that BM can get it but its also in the perfect place for MM or Surv Hunters to get as well.

Your ranged critical hits cause your pet to generate 25/50 Focus. In addition, your pets critical hits cause you to generate 100/200 mana.

That seems too sporadic to me, unless you're BM. Sure, as BM it'd be great, but MM is far more mana dependent and your pet isn't critting nearly as much as a BM hunter's. I'd much prefer some steady mana return.

Thanks for the "OMG wall of text" - very well and thoroughly stated. =)

I have been a mana junkie for a long time. When I got my Black Grasps crafted a year ago, I told my guildie that I'd take them off "when hell froze over". I had no idea how prophetic that was. When I'm working towards long term DPS, the mana regen from black grasps works out to something around 30ish mana/5. Combine that with a Mark of Conquest, which seems to proc ~2+ times a minute for me, and I have a pretty reliable (albeit somewhat spikey) rate of mana regen. (I tend to use viper and the beast lord hands a lot more, recently, now that I have the mark of conquest.)

I also have both 3/3 Thrill of the Hunt AND 5/5 Efficiency. (It's subpar damage, but I am enjoying the bag of tricks, traps that don't resist, and general resistance vs death.) The awesome thing is, both of these stack. 25% crit rate x 40% mana regen on crits = ~10% mana refunded, in the long term. (~12% at 30% crit.)

0.9 x 0.9 = .81, so my steady shots only cost ~89 mana. =-D That combined with my on-hit mana regen from BGD and Mark of Conquest means that I can (for shorter bosses) use Hawk much longer than most other hunters I've grouped with.

They may not be the best, but for endurance fights, on-hit-mana-regen is something I rather like. Especially since I never seem to see JoW.

Or why not just combine the 6-piece Cryptstalker bonus into GFFT?

Sigh...I have finally decided I hate my guild...used to be cool but guild breakups and rebuilds later...le sigh.

So we are going for our first actual doomwalker kill...and I have my pet out and they are like, "Why is your pet out?" and I replied, "Because I am BM spec" (I recently started trying out BM to see how well it does in regards to MM) and they were all like "You need to respec yadda yadda yadda" to which I replied, "BM does more damage then MM at least according to the current evidence"

Meh, whatever, I did decent damage 7th place woot...and don't get me started when I asked to be in the Shadow Priests group... (but someone was really cool and would throw a heal on my pet if it was below 8k).

But anyway, I have two questions. Does Doomwalkers Lightning chain off pets?
And why is it that in a raiding guild that wants to actually progress at all would they not at least put in some times and read the boards where evidence is presented? Sorta like this one? At least I get to go out to sea soon.

Its kind of absurd how much of a difference in damage there is when hunters have a shadow priest versus not. I mean, a shadow priest for a mage for example just means they can destro pot, not evocate, and usually don't need to gem, and I assume for locks it just means less lifetapping (not that lock mana is usually a problem). The point is, both can do very good damage without a shadow priest, it just won't be AS good as it could be.

A hunter without a shadow priest is just a sub par damage dealer. Thats pretty screwed up and I'm really surprised there doesn't seem to be an indication of this changing any time soon.

Second question: Because it's SUP? With players like Nightman who'd argue with me, telling me how Huhu's > Ashjrethul?

I like the ideas relating to mana regen issues we're having. However, this isnt the only problem we're facing atm. Our damage with unlimited mana isnt where it should be either in my opinion.

I think we need a stacking debuff ala ignite for steady shot. I think we need more synergy with the classes we're hoping to be grouped with. A cant live without group buff for shadow priests and or shaman comes to mind. Maybe make windfury work with hunter shots

Really? Because the shadow priest factor is such a huge difference alone, our hunters get near the top spots (and sometimes, the top spot) because of it, whereas without it they pretty much trail a LOT lower.

Granted, I think they need to expand on the shadow priest idea more in terms of various group buffs/procs/debuffs, it makes for more involved play I think.

I know from the hunters in my guild about the mana issues and the whole "gief spriest in my group" situation and don't understand why it is so hard for Blizzard to give you a way to regen mana without affecting your DPS. The Viper's Mark suggestion especially was interesting since it encourages a 2nd hunter to be present and helps with the regen without affecting your DPS like AotV does.

Then again, it could also be something simple like a self-buff. E.g.

<Insert fancy name>
XXX Mana
You gain mana per 5 seconds equal to XX% of your RAP
Duration: 10 minutes.

Replace X's with balanced numbers and voila.

What they should do with viper is make it a cooldown ability that just restores % of your mana rather than something you would just have on you to try to keep up, basically Hunter Evocation if you want to think of it that way.

Its been my experience at least the difference you give up, the hunter makes up for it compared to a mage or warlock, and its also the difference of having to use hawk versus just mana regen, or a relentless assault versus restoration. Mana regen/retention just doesn't seem to be as bad for other dps classes over a long fight.

The easiest, and probably least drastic (in the eyes of Blizzard) way to buff hunter DPS in PvE raiding without affecting PvP or solo PvE play drastically is to reduce the mana cost of our shots. I'd imagine they would look into this before doing anything huge like altering the mechanics of our class. It says something when hunter DPS goes from mediocre to competing for top spots just by putting in a Shadow Priest in their group so they don't have to worry about mana...

An easy solution to this would be to give hunters something like Shamanistic Rage (which to some extent has already been suggested).

Hmmmm, hunters already have physical dps synergy though, and in each tree at that. There's ferocious inspiration in BM, imp mark and trueshot in MM, and expose weakness in the survival tree. Only expose weakness and mark are especially raid friendly, but survival is less than stellar in PVE.

Mana does seem like it is one of the big issues though, as shadow priests have a very strong effect on how hard you can run your shot rotations. With a shadow priest I can be competative on dps, but without I have to downrank or stick to mostly steady shot.

Pet synergy and skills not limited to BM and improving survival seem like the best approaches to it, with some attention to the mana issue. For example, kill command was a good idea but with their switching around of skill levels it is now relegated to being mostly useless. As for survival, I don't think that the concept of the tree is fundamentally broken, it is just too weak and not set up quite right.

<- idiot.