Edit: THIS IS NOT ABOUT DKP FOR KARAZHAN. THIS IS ABOUT ATTENDANCE.

We recently had an issue where I wanted to look over member attendance, clicked on someone's personal page for eqDKP, and got an abyssmially low percentage. Then I thought to myself - well, since this person's attendence is believed to be a problem, let's check someone with "good" attendence and see their percentage. Also... very... low. Because if you're attending Karazhan East, you're not attending Karazhan West (our nominclature to avoid the "A" team and the "B" team).

So I was sort of curious what... best... practices... other guilds are doing in order to still have meaningful attendence percentages. Our complications are that Karazhan East and Karazhan West may not run on the same night. Just to pencil in, since we're not using a mod to parse in everything (tales of them exploding and losing the night's data has made me wary), we enter in an event like "Karazhan - Midnight" Note: "Up through Curator", apply a one time point bonus of the value of all the bosses slain in that run, and then charge out all the items. Teams aren't static (if you're East one week, you may be West the next), so making a "Karazhan East" event and tracking that individually doesn't wash, either.

20+ individual adjustments a night isn't an appealing option, either. Any thoughts? Am I missing something obvious?

We just don't use dkp for Karazhan. There are generally only 2-3 people interested in any given item (if that), so we just /random. DKP for Karazhan seems like it's more trouble than it's worth, IMO.

Don't run DKP in Kara if it is complicating things too much for you, especially since you are trying to mix your "A" and "B" team so heavily. Just stick with some basic ground rules to make sure you aren't having people get their second T4 gloves/helm when others need their first still and /random the entire place. When you start on Grull and Mag, then evaluate whether and how you want to work a DKP system since you will hopefully be with just one team.

Some people in my guild were interested in attempting dkp for Karazhan, but I kept coming up with messy scenarios until they stopped coming up with solutions.

Even though it has pieces of T4, it's a real mess to have it on the same system as the rest of the pieces. If I were you, I'd take it off dkp. If you don't want to do that, at least break it off into its own system. That'll fix your attendence percentages and keep any problems it causes contained.

Honestly, when most items are only wanted by a single person on the run, and even the hottest items aren't wanted by more than 3-4, a dkp system just doesn't make much sense.

Don't do DKP for Karazhan.

My old guild kicked around the idea. We decided that in the worst case, 4 people would be vying for the same piece of loot. On average though, only 1-2 people are interested in an item that drops. The headache and overhead of DKP with such a small pool just wouldn't be worth it. It would essentially come down to whether or not the item dropped on your run, not whether or not you had enough DKP saved up to win it.

Besides, 10 people is a relatively easy group to field. There's no reason to think that Karazhan won't be run exhaustively, ensuring that most people will get what they want in the long run, no matter the loot system behind it.

I could see dkp working for Karazhan if both groups run at the sametime always and if they don't you would just have to get creative in how you distribute points. If Group 1 kills Midnight, not only do the 10 people in that group get the DKP from it, but so does everyone in Group 2 and possibly the people on standby. Same goes for anything Group 2 kills. As long as the raids were going at the sametime you would just give DKP to everyone in either group or online when the boss dies. Even if the groups kill a different amount of bosses from one another it shouldn't matter.

With that said we don't use DKP for Karazhan because it is such a small part of raiding for us. I definately agree with the other posters in this thread that loot in Karazhan is rather easy to distribute if people have some common curtesy, but being able to go to numbers for loot is always nice too.

and everyone addresses loot assignment. We /random for everything except the tier loot (and we even random for that, it's just a weighted roll). Not that it matters, but we give one point per kill (wildly inflationary), so we have some vague attendance metric for weighting rolls on tier loot (and it carries well into Gruul and Magtheridon).

All of that is besides the point - I need a meaningful attendance report, and throwing out DKP doesn't change that. Also, I suspect, it isn't that uncommon a need. What with the bulk of WoW raids either struggling with Moroes or Curator, "Just wait for SSC," is no answer.

We actually decided against DKP in karazhan... We learned our mistake when we tried DKP for ZG.

Now it's loot council. I thought it was going to be an admin nightmare, but it has actually worked out really well.

We do Karazhan in two teams and use /random for all the loot, BUT we still track all the Karazhan raids and track all of the loot even though DKP is not rewarded.

I modified the guild's EQDKP scripts for the pages that calc attendance to exclude any raid named "Karazhan" in the attendance % calculation. That way Karazhan is still listed and tracked but has absolutely no bearing on anyone's attendance % values.

If you're interested, you should look at the php scripts for listmembers.php, viewmember.php, and stats.php and any other attendance plugins you use and alter the queries for attendance to exclude raid_name = 'Karazhan'

If you want Karazhan to count in your attendance, I haven't found any other method to do it other then creating one giant raid for Karazhan with everyone who was in both raids included and all the loot from both raids included. If you really dug into the code you could try making it based on the date rather then the Raid Name for the query when adding up Karazhan raids; but that only works if both groups always go on the same days and would require quite a bit of recoding.

if you run two and exactly two kara raids, could you track kara attendance sepperately from anything else you track, and then just double the reported kara attendance %?

Yeah you would just need two queries for all of your total attendance functions, one for raids excluding all karaz raids, and one for all karaz raids. Then you divide the count from the Karaz query by 2, and add the two values together to get the total raids value. Then you just do attended raids into total raids.

IE I've attended 3 out of 6 Karaz Raids, and 5 Gruul Raids.
Query 1 (Modified to get count for raids excluding "Karazhan - East" and "Karazhan - West") gets 5 total non Karaz raids.
Query 2 (Only checks raids called "Karazhan - East" and "Karazhan - West") gets 6 total Karaz raids divided by two so 3.
Query 3 which remains unchanged just gets the total number of attended raids, 8.
Then you make the % formula do "Query3/(Query 1 + Query 2)" in this case 8/8 so I would have 100% attendance.

The code gets a bit tricky for it, but it is very doable. It will screw up if you do not put in two Karaz raids every time you do Karaz though.

What I'm going with is sort of what Darkmgl said above - lump karazhan entries. Which is fine - since we aren't tracking points strictly (again, weighted rolls for the tier 4 pieces only), the inaccuracies are sufficently small as to be acceptable (East getting 4 kills but 5 points because West got 5... need 10 points to even get a 1 weighting, so...). It would be nice if "group adjustments" were for definable groups.

As for the three queries, is there a compelling SQL reason to not do the logic in the query? Not that we're going with that (our situation discourages me from wanting to go with something that care-intensive, otherwise I'd be for it).

That's how we did it even in the old world. Due to variable attendance, lack of interest in ZG/AQ20 runs for "too few epics", we ended up doing a big pool. All the points over the week are pooled, and distributed at the end of the week. Attendance to one MC night equals attendance to one BWL night equals attendance to one ZG night (this is zero sum DKP). And yes, the people on standby count, assuming they were there at the start of the raid, and still online at the end.

You could do it within the query but I've had personal issues with performing math in the SQL queries in EQDKP since they tend to be lumped together for doing multiple things. If you start performing math within some of the queries, it can screw with your other functions.

Of course if you made a new query and new function from scratch and just disabled the old raidcount ones, you could do it all within a single lump of commands easily.

I did something similar some time ago for EQdkp. Quoting myself...
Feel free to rip the plugin apart.
I don't maintain it anymore (as I'm building some "better" DKP application), but if you have any questions just ask.

This is exactly what we do. Well, except that we don't use RP for bosses like Attumen.

The only RP'ed items in our Karazhan raid are the T4 set tokens and the ilvl 110 items off of Prince (this is just for consistency with the 25-man T4 loot). Both groups run simultaneously, and items are distributed evenly amongst everyone raiding or waiting, regardless of which items dropped for which group.