QQ: All my friends left, now I am stuck with Guild Leader. - Page 2

• Snowy · 04/04/07, 8:53 PM

You need to be yourself. If you try to be something different, you'll eventually burn out.

Quigon · 04/04/07, 8:56 PM

Originally Posted by Kalroth

Leadership is all about respect, both from you to everyone else and from everyone else to you. Most people aren't stupid and can see right through whatever role you're trying to play. If you're not being yourself, then people will have a hard time respecting you.

Some good advice in this entire post, but the last point needs to be reiterated. People in general are very smart when it comes to social behavior. Math and English, whatever, but people can read one another, and nuances to feelings are picked up in a heartbeat by almost everyone. You should show your members the same respect as you would your colleagues in real life in a real job; unless of course, they're a dirty warlock.

Lamaros · 04/04/07, 9:04 PM

Be yourself. Don't put on an act, you wont fool anyone and wont be able to keep it it. And you probably wont enjoy it.

Don't try to be more than you are just because you're the GM. Some GMs yell and rant and do everything. Some just organise certain stuff and leave other things to officers, some .. etc yadda yadda

There are no "best practices", don't look to hard for them.

Cel · 04/04/07, 9:15 PM

Originally Posted by Lamaros

There are no "best practices", don't look to hard for them.

I would dissagree in saying leading doesn't have practices that have been established over time...

I was taught how to lead raids, I didn't figure it out on my own. Once I had that sort of foundational teaching I built on that and made my style of leading my own, but there is a level on which leading can be taught.

Zarat · 04/04/07, 9:30 PM

More guildleader personal input inc!

Be yourself. Always. The people you are leading know how you act by now and people generally do not like change.

Be open. Always be avaible to answer questions about anything (you'll get questions you never dreamed of). Any decision which could be considered questionable should be accompanied by solid reasoning for it.

Relax. You're only one person and only human. Unless you have no quality officers (and from previous posters it sounds like your officer core is fine) you should be delagating as much as possible, but get frequent feedback and reports from this.

Focus on what YOU are best at. If you are the very best raid leader ever known focus on that and delagate everything else to your other officers. Trying to not only step upto a new position like this and taking on things you are not naturally good at doing all at once is a formula for disaster.

Make it clear that you are the leader. Being wishy-washy is a quick way to have your leadership underminded. You don't have to be a jerk or mean to accomplish this. Personally, I'm a very fun guy always. When it comes time to get serious I'm the first. I make it clear it is "game time" and afterwards we can go back to making fun of whatever we were.

Be clear and concise. It helps that I am crystal clear on vent, and while I might not happen to be the best public speaker I do get the point across.

Be honest. People will be value your honest input more than almost anyone else in the guild. As long as you're not cruel in delievering this honestly people will respect what you say. For every lie you are caught in you set back what could easily be weeks of honesty.

I like to have an officer or two more than we need. This covers when one of them has something come up. Being short is always worst than being a little heavy.

The biggest thing I will echo that has been mentioned many times in this thread is that you won't be the best guildleader overnight. A lot of trust is bestowed onto you, and if you haven't earned that level of trust yet from all of your members it will be hard going untill you do. I have 6 years of raid guild leadership, 5 years of real life job leadership, and one year of small business owner experience to draw on.... and at times it is still hard.

Elmdor~ZJ · 04/04/07, 9:39 PM

Zarat is the worst guildleader, EVER.

Lamaros · 04/04/07, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by Cel

I would dissagree in saying leading doesn't have practices that have been established over time...

I was taught how to lead raids, I didn't figure it out on my own. Once I had that sort of foundational teaching I built on that and made my style of leading my own, but there is a level on which leading can be taught.

This is far to philosophical conversation for the EJ forums. Seriously.

Needless to say, there is a difference between leading a raid and leading a raid well; between being a leader and being a good leader. And there are many good leaders who have completely different approaches to similar situations.

Knowing that you need to set up groups, get everyone to buff up properly and make sure they're not AFK before pulls, make sure people know what they're meant to do, etc.. these are things you can teach someone else and make them a better raid leader. You can get some general things down on paper about running a guild too.

But this thread seems to be more about the "how can I be a good guild leader (ion general)? What type of person do I need to be, what kind of approach?". In this sense you can't really give people rules as it depends a lot on their nature/their guild/etc. If you're not a very loud forceful type it doesn't do well to try to be. If you're not able to run everything yourself it doesn't bode well if you try; if you have officers who suck then there's no point relying on them; if you have officers who are highly competent and useful then no good will come from bossing and ignoring them; . Etc, etc.

Cel · 04/04/07, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by Lamaros

This is far to philosophical conversation for the EJ forums. Seriously.

The only reason I generalized somewhat was cause I was talking from my experiences in learning to be a raid leader, not a guild leader... so I figured it'd be better to show how that can be applied to other leadership positions. And eh, it's not that philosophical.. it's almost common sense if you think a bit, I figure.

I was taught how to get people's attention, how to deal with different difficulties, what to say in certain situations... not down to the specific words I was supposed to say, but how I was supposed to say it, etc, cause I asked questions... I didn't go to a "Raid Leader's Seminar on how to clear Blackwing Lair" or anything. >_>

Lamaros · 04/05/07, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by Cel

The only reason I generalized somewhat was cause I was talking from my experiences in learning to be a raid leader, not a guild leader... so I figured it'd be better to show how that can be applied to other leadership positions. And eh, it's not that philosophical.. it's almost common sense if you think a bit, I figure.

ot: 'Common sense' is is bit of a meaningless thing. The common body of knowledge is just as often wrong as it is right (generalisation! woo!).

Anyway.. There are many academic debates about whether certain traits can be taught or are at some sense inate.

Aphyrax · 04/05/07, 1:05 AM

I learned a lot of useless stuff in a lot of useless management classes, but one thing stuck. Remember the golden rule, "treat others like you want to be treated"? It doesn't work. The key is to treat others like THEY want to be treated. The golden rule stems from the common misconception that others are just like you and thus want to be treated like you would.

Mike Holmgren yells because he is coaching a group of hardcore, type A personality players. If your guild is like that then the same treatment is probably in order. But for the majority of people that is not a good way to deal with them.

I once read an interview with some famous director, and he described how he was yelling at an actor for doing poorly. Some other actor came up to him afterwards and said, "if you yelled at me like that I wouldn't get a word out for an hour". To which he replied, "that is why I would never yell at you like that".

Most people go with the approximation that everyone is like them. If someone doesn't like it, there are always new recruits out there. But if you actually care about the SPECIFIC people in your guild and not just about having 25 people that can down bosses, then it is probably not a good idea to follow any blanket advice.

Originally Posted by Quigon

This positive in public thing is amusing. Someone should tell Mike Holmgren to stop yelling so much, maybe the Hawks would have won the superbowl.

Repeek · 04/05/07, 1:29 AM

still waiting on the sebudai link

Scipe · 04/05/07, 2:14 AM

Nat, I've been under your lead for the past 8 or 9 months, and I personally have more faith in you than I do in most people. You give it your all. Continue running things the way you've always lead the rogue class. Lean hard on your officers, push them, much like you push the rogue class. I'm sure you'll do fine.

Linnet · 04/05/07, 2:30 AM

The hardest thing is not being the GM, it's feeling as though all your friends have gone and you're left alone. Good luck.

Elsia · 04/05/07, 3:41 AM

Oddly an intriguing thread. I do think there are things that help and hurt, and that there are things that are very flexible or make no difference at all. I think everybody knows this (or disagrees with it) so let me embarrass myself by writing some done

*) Hire carefully. People who are drama prone are so due to personality much more than anything else I found, also hire people who match the attitude that your current group has. If you hire rough and boisterous folks into a bunch of more sensitively inclined folks, or the other way around, you just create a bad mix.
*) For new hirees advertise upfront what you are offering and what you expect. That doesn't stop all wrong people from applying but certainly helps and also helps later when things need to be clarified.
*) Setting expectations rather than having 25+ randomly pick some is good (more drama if people violate their own expectations), i.e. give direction.
*) At the same time listen. But don't be afraid to disagree.
*) Spread the load, a lot. Not only for yourself but also for other people. Even if someone is very eager, give them sensible amounts of admin. Lots of people will burn out if the load is too heavy.
*) Have complaints rarely or never go to you first. Have class representatives, or other dedicated officers handle this. People with people and mediation skills and a thick skin are good for this, but after 2 years of complaints anybody can wear out.
*) People leaving isn't a bad thing if things are more peaceful and more manageable after. It's bad if someone wore out who helped a lot. Even then you can hire new ones.
*) Trying to be fair and equal-handed is good.
*) Be honest even if it might appear unpopular. Sensible/mature people will respect dissenting honesty more than idle agreement.
*) Respect is independent of how tough or soft you are. Being tough or soft has nothing to do with having a spine and an independent opinion. Some people will disrespect you no matter what you say or do. Don't take it personally.
*) If you have folks who show continued disregard for others and do hurtful things intentionally or because of personal problems, let go of them. Especially if they show no recognition of the problem, and willingness to change, when addressed.
*) Don't let problems get bigger for you than they really are. Some problems need no other solution than a word of acknowledgment and letting them be history. Most problems either have a clear constructive path to address them (so do that) or are of this type.
*) Emphasize the fun or the solution not the problems. Look forward, don't linger on the past.

Or the short form would be "common sense" but I've seen a lot of common sense going out the window when the going gets rough.

As for friends leaving, well I understand that one. Had friends leave and had to leave friends.

Machichi · 04/05/07, 4:17 AM

Never been a guild leader, but so far I have been a: team captain, bible study leader, and football coach in my relatively short lifetime.

A few thoughts:
--Be confident. In almost any sort of leadership role, half the job is being confident or acting confident. If you can be confident in your management, you'll go places. Don't be absolutist, because that won't help with anything, don't be cocky, because that gets old, just be confident.
--Delegate like a big dog. The more you can share the workload, the easier it'll be to wear the GM tag. If you micromanage, you're gonna freak out. Kalman says you've got a good support staff around you, so use them.
--Be yourself. People know fake and they hate it. They also know genuine and when they see it, they follow it. Keep the entertaining personality, incorporate it into raid leading and such. You'll have to use your serious voice every now and then, but in my experience this can be employed to stress the situation without screaming and name calling.
--Don't get personal in criticism. Criticize the action, not the person. If the mage pulls aggro during a fight, go to town on his choice to keep casting when he was skyrocketing up KTM's standings, but don't go to town on HIM. Teasing works wonders in that in gets the point across, while being stress free. If you know how to be funny, then I suggest this. I tease EVERYONE I know about tons of stuff, but they know at the end of the day, I care. Which brings me to my next point:
--Care. Not so much about the guild as the people. The better you treat people, the better they'll perform for you. Don't mistake that for being nice or kissing ass or bending over backwards for people. Be fair, be kind, be approachable and try to build connections with the PEOPLE you lead. Because at the end of the day, it's about people.

[/soapbox]

oh, and bummer on the friends leaving, you have my sympathies. I've had to trim a fair number of retirees off my friends list in the last few months and it bites.