Is Mike Holmgren's first priority talent retention or this season's performance (which one does his salary get judged on)? Do your players have millions on the line for their performance as do his? What's on the line for your team?

At 90 WPM (which I'm absolutely guessing to be a fair benchmark for someone first person shootery capable, aka, "a good raider"), you don't have enough time to fill someone's chat screen while rebuffing/rezzing goes around?

You can tell me I'm wrong about people caring about their dignity and how much softer keeping criticism private isn't, but I'm fairly sure it's established management best practices. This doesn't mean it's all dandelions and hugs and kisses, you know. One can be harsh, critical, and disappointed.

No, all of my bosses have been my best friends.

Didn't claim it doesn't.

Whenever someone with a dedicated healer dies, I ask the dedicated healer about the damage pattern and if it matches their healing pattern (druid HoTs, priest patch, paladin throughput, yadda yadda), and if the mana drain is too taxing for them to sustain over the period we need. My bad, I'll fix it. They'll chime in they didn't expect X, or something, so they needed practice. C'est la vie.

I'm trying very hard to think of a situation where it's time to chew the player out, and I really can't think of one. If they're simply bad at WoW (let's say their keyboarding/mousing skills are ~5 WPM), why are you retaining them? If they're unpracticed, why is it their fault, and not simply a question of coaching and practice in the little leagues - er, I mean, 5's and beginning Karazhan? If they're tired and falling asleep at the keyboard, why aren't they communicating that to you, and why aren't you managing that ("Hey, it's alright, go get some sleep pal."?)

Whenever someone messes up something basic - "Hey, don't start DPS for the first few seconds," and we wipe, the sarcasm goes to 11 on vent. "Guys. No, seriously. I'd like to ask all of you a giant favor. Let's just give this one a shot this time. Yeah, ok. What we're going to do, is, see, pretend like we've played this WoW game at some point in our lives. Yeah, and having played the game before, we know that what? Yes, the tank gets to hit things a few times first. Fiiiirst. First."

Instead of someone being emo over sucking out loud, people are cringing trying to pretend they're not laughing (or that's what I tell myself). I mean, I suppose, "JOHNSON. YEAH, DON'T POM PYRO AS I BODY PULL. IT'S DUMB. YOU'RE DUMB. AND SMELLY," gets results too.

But I think too many people give too much credence to the jerkfaced raid leader mythos. And then complain about attrition.

Agreed with Phoenix above me, first get things back on track just by being a raiding guild.
Second of all dont try to do everything (single admin dkp, do forums, lead raids, do guildbank). There's loads of people willing to do more then just dps/heal/tank for the guild.

I wouldnt advice raidleading (there aint TO much to lead in kharazan imo) unless you feel you are right for the job since it can be quite stressful in addition to getting questions/guildbankrequests/moans all the time.

But good luck on the switch! we had 1 GM leave due to healthreasons and the temp GM that followed him had a hard time getting the same amount of respect, basicly because he tried to change some things in the guild which didnt fare well with a lot of people.

About the raidleading in general; Go with what works in your guild. Having been a fury warrior pre-tbc I was pretty close with the rogues and some hunters/mages fighting for dps spots. We used to mock eachother when they got lower then certain people who we used as benchmarks. Those were generally the people who dont mind critisism and want to improve there game. That approach doesnt work on the more sensible people who are more laid back . Go whatever feels natural

People just want to be able to play their game and get the most out of it at the end of the day. If you can show that everything your doing is aimed towards letting them play more of this game then your onto a winner.

You may get complained at because they wanted to do ' x ' activity as opposed to ' y ' but if you can indicate that what your doing will lead to them being able to do that more effectively msot people will see the sense in what your doing. Get a bit of participation on small things to give a sense of inclusion in the process but make sure these things are part of your larger aim. It sounds horridly machivellian (spelling?) but im sure you have a view of what you want the guild to be aiming at and by involving others on the smaller decisions in this you can give them ownership of this idea aswell making it all a lot easier for you to get done. Get your guild on board with your ideas and you dont so much have to lead them as you do poke them a bit for directions sake.

You dont have to be liked per ce but it really does help if underneath the bollockings for going on a window licking spree whilst chasing dust mites mid raid the people know your only doing it as you want them to get the best out of what is essentially their gaming experience. This is ofc assuming your in a guild thats interested in progressing largely, if not my example falls completely falt as ive no idea then.

Also if you can limit yourself to a few occasional rants it'll have more impact when you really need them to as opposed to them being common place and you'll get a lot more effect ouot of them.

I cannot stress enough how important it is to get some kind of normalcy into the guild. Our guild experienced quite a lot of drama ourselves. Quite a lot of core members left, quitting the game or transfering to another realm. Among them was our GL and his successor, as well as some classleads, 2 of our tanks etc. Since then we struggle to rebuild the guild but this is very tough especially since there were quite a lot of RL acquaintances who now ponder whether it is worth to keep hanging on instead of following those who already left.

This leads to a kind of vicious circle due to a lack of groups availible (people tend to reduce their time online, thereby reducing the the pool of players availible for instances and kara raids again). When talking to our folks some really seem to have the attitude that we will sooner or later break up totally. I don't agree with them but this pessimistic mood is like a black veil.

Regarding the general consense regarding delegating authority as well as tasks to other officers: running a team or a guild or a raid on your own might work on the short term. But on the long run you will burn out, no matter how good you do. Furthermore I strongly believe in the principle of having someone to discuss matters on an even level. One of our greatest problems was/is replacing class officers since our 3rd/4th man in the respective class is just not officer material. On the other hand a strong bunch of officers often form the backbone of a guild that enables the guild to survive.

Before I give inspiration advice, or anything trite, let's ask a very fundamental question:

Are you leading the guild because you don't mind doing it, and it has to be done?

Or

Are you leading the guild because you enjoy doing it?

Or

Are you leading the guild because you were left in charge of it?

Or any number of other reasons, but that's the usual three.

Figure out why you're the guild leader. What made you the person of the moment, and then stop and examine if that makes you happy.

I was the guild leader of Rebirth for 2 years. I was very honest with myself - I was guild leader because I enjoyed it but I started off as guild leader because I didn't know enough to say no or yes and was curious about it. Eventually I realized I needed a break and I stepped down for that break.

You need to be honest about any type of leadership position, particularly with yourself, because it's all a trust thing. People follow other people, primarily, because they trust them. People trust honesty more than deciet, and you'll trust yourself more (strange as it sounds) if you know you've been completely honest with no hidden reservations.

So sit down and figure out "why me" first.

Once you've decided that you really are the best fit for the guild leader, and accepted it, you can worry about doing a good job. Trust me, every guild leader worries. It's part and parcel of the process. What's important is to worry about the right things, and to learn that you can't worry about everything and still have fun.

Here's a good place to start with the "how do I do this" type stuff: What's your guild's goal? Can you give an answer in a single sentence? Short and to the point? If not, why not? You cannot lead a guild without knowing what you are trying to accomplish, so it's worth the half hour to sort it out in your head. Once you know (or think you do) what you're here for, be very vocal about it. Make a post on your guild forums, chat in guild chat, talk on vent, etc. The purpose of this section is to make it clear to the other people in this boat with you what you care about. What your passion for the guild is. That's important, because guilds are organic and selective. Organic meaning they grow from their player's needs/wants, and selective meaning that not every guild is for every player.

It's a good thing to let the players who are already there know what your goals for the guild are, so they can make sure their goals align. You don't want to spend time fighting over this stuff. You want to provide a direction. (and just about any direction will do - there are guilds for recreating wow lore, guilds for being evil warlocks, guilds for raiding masochisticly, guilds for raiding while inebriated, etc) Then go from there.

The actual mechanics of "being the guild leader" mostly take care of themselves if you identify what the guild is intended to "do", and then pursue it.

The people skills needed to keep everyone happy with each other are secondary. The organizational skills to balance schedules and pick targets are secondary. The single most important thing to do is decide if you are the right guild leader. The second most important thing to do is decide what guild you are leading, and the third most important thing is to be open with your membership about why you are the right guild leader, and what guild you are hoping to lead.

As long as you hit those three, you'll have time to learn the rest. Judging from kalman's post you have some quality people around you, but before you start leaning on them, look at yourself and make sure you'll be happy in this position. Make sure you know what you want, and then be honest about trying to get it.

Good luck.

Nat:

We've been around the block a few times together so from one friend to another, just be who you are and you will do fine. But for good measure here are some of the things that helped me when I GM'ed Epic Again:

1) Be fair (even if your "close friends" want something else);
2) Be firm (firm doesn't mean be maniacally dogmatic, just be firm);
3) Apply rules/regulations EVENLY (this is critical... rule of law > inner circlism);
4) Whisper and talk to folks one on one... even those you don't regularly converse with;
5) Use humor alternated with stern seriousness to control the mood depending on which is needed;
6) Listen to your officers... if the majority of them suggest something (that you disagree with) try it; not only does it show your confidence in them, but they may just be right!

Good luck, bro.

All I know is that I'm going to miss the two buggies Gussy and Hap. As real life friends for many years now, its going to be a different game without em.

Anyone mind if I take this thread a bit off topic? It does tie in with suddenly finding yourself as a guild leader.

I am a guild leader on the OPs realm. We've had a pretty stable guild for 16 months.

What I have noticed is over the last month our raid core has been burning out like I've never seen before. Almost exclusively tanks and healers. Perhaps it is just small number statistics, but everyone seems to have the same complaints.

The game isn't fun anymore. Kara just doesn't feel the same as 40 man raids. The raids are much more frustrating, the rewards are terrible, and the consumable requirements are crazy. Some also feel that some of the new members we've recruited can't handle the gear/complexity requirements of the new encounters.

These are the players that never missed a raid, and I count on as officers and raid leaders for over a year. I'd be lying if I wasn't feeling some of the strain as well. Splitting the guild up every night for 2 Kara raids is just no fun, and we always seem to have trouble on the later nights of the instance when one key tank or healer can't make it. People don't really want to go to Karazhan (especially on wipe nights) but they don't really want to be sat, either, since they perceive it as a slight to their ability.

I think the problems many of us foresaw months ago (which led to my post that Tigole gave some good feedback on) just came to a head, and a lot of really quality people decided to step off the treadmill.

Are other guild experiencing something similar?

Yes, this is the post-twin emps lull that almost every AQ40 guild felt. Its a lack of foreseeable content that just guts guilds like never before.
We lost probably 1/3rd of our end game raiding guilds on our server during this period.

Post KT was also pretty brutal on attendance, as were a few other notable periods in the past.
It is inevitable that some guilds will run into burnout issues doing the same shit (karazhan) over and over for the 40th time, which you're not even to yet, and with the current progression chart, may be resigned to for a long time.

The way we dealt with it is being as candid as possible about the circumstances... I don't blow smoke up my member's asses because they know the score as much as I do. We talk about how we're gonna deal with the shittiness of the current game, and we literally pace ourselves back. We didn't start gruul or magtheridon for what is a relatively long time (waited for mag on nerf, and gruul was like mid february). This was mostly to recover from the post-KT burnout. We don't have issues of burnout now cause we're progressing through the last couple of encounters, but basically once we hit the next wall we'll be taking it a bit easy.

You should spread the week out to accomplish your goals, and make sure you're taking extra nights off as possible. Kill the progression night if necessary, and just farm for an extra week. 1-2 nights off works wonders.

I would have to say that I am leading it because it has to be done. I personally recruited a fair amount of these players and they all left established guilds to come here. I feel that it is my responsability to give this my best effort and not throw in the cards. I think it is really important for me to stand and be accountable.

To address ETbrick: On our realm there are only a few guild leaders at the level of raiding we hope to achieve. I thought that there would be many more people here that would share what they have seen or gone thru and I would avoid some of the Drama'Thalasians. This place is a haven from level 3 trolls.

All: Thanks for your honest thoughts and opinions. Clearly me being me is going to be the right way to go.

One of the things I set forth at the outset of Machin Shin's most recent rebuild (TBC launch) was to ask the people who make up the guild exactly what they wanted and when they wanted to do it. I go back and ask them every couple of weeks the same question to ensure we've not drifted. We currently raid 4 days a week and about 3 maybe 4 hours on those 4 days. We'll prolly kill Hydross this week for a server first. We got Gruul pre nerf for server first, and got Magtheridon last week for Allaince first only a few days after the Horde's top guild nailed him. The important thing here is we are "successful" yet we're not burning our members out. The days we raid they actually want to be there and get the job done. And it shows. The whole guild really enjoys that they get the whole weekend off to have a life, and still get all the great e-peen enlargements.

I complain every raid night how terrible the raid game is right now, but I also throw in the occassional message that it will not always be like this. That item you just looted and are thinking about disenchanting because it really isn't an upgrade will get upgraded. It has to. Or Blizzard will lose about 10% of their customers. 10% doesn't seem like much, but that is more customers who are just raiders than I think Vanguard has in total. And when they magical patch day comes we will all log on to see the fruits of our labor fulfilled.

Standing accountable for your actions is a great trait but don't let it be the ruin of you. However you might just gain some extra followers because you are taking it onto yourself to keep it going.